Possibly, a dead horse ....Fuel injection

[Toovalks]

 So.... the dead horse is ,....are you ready????  Fuel injection again !!!!. Just Like a few months back... When I got a BEE up my you know what because I didn't like the shifter on our valks, and I designed the easy heel toe shifter using mostly off the shelf parts. The bee this time was all of the posts about carbs,cleaning,hydrolock , syncing, warm up choke, cold weather starts,etc. So...I started researching all the posts about Fuel Injecting the GL1500 engine,including the GW forum 26 page post where it took the guy 2 and a 1/2 years to get it running. Sooo I know that many have tried or at least talked about it ,even talked about making a kit..... tough one to do....but I think I have  possibly a new proof of concept.
     I have mated a GL1800 fuel injection manifold /fuel rail/injectors,and throttle body to a 1500 Valkyrie.
Please, someone talk me out of this insanity before I go any deeper down this rabbit hole.
      The manifold and TB may be the easy part,all the sensors and the IAC are already in place on the Honda TB. If we want true sequential FI then some how a cam position sensor and 2   O2 sensors must be added. The ECU is the next hurdle.... A Megasquirt3 could do it easily as well as handling the ignition. This would yield a seriously flexible  and programmable system but also expensive.. Sooo . I would need some serious help here,..... but i figure we may be able to use a GW ECU which can be found cheaply if we can figure out the wiring connections.......Help...i can't stop myself.

[$ Ball]

Don’t stop ,we don’t like quitters.

[Toovalks]

So... even though I said I didn't want to go down the rabbit hole... If I'm not to give up...I'm going to need help from the many knowledgeable folks here...mostly o2 sensor install advice and reverse engineering the 1800 ECM for our use..... The time may be coming when states may be forcing us to cleanup our emissions or take these old ghurls off the road....just a thought.

[The emperor has no clothes]

So... even though I said I didn't want to go down the rabbit hole... If I'm not to give up...fI'm going to need help from the many knowledgeable folks here...mostly o2 sensor install advice and reverse engineering the 1800 ECM for our use..... The time may be coming when states may be forcing us to cleanup our lemissions or take these old ghurls off the road....just a thought.

If you are doing this project because you want Fuel Injection I’m sure you would be time and money ahead just buying a F6b or a Goldwing. If you are doing it because you think the government is going to take carburetored bikes off the street, I think you are making a mistake.

[savy265]

So.... the dead horse is ,....are you ready????  Fuel injection again !!!!. Just Like a few months back... When I got a BEE up my you know what because I didn't like the shifter on our valks, and I designed the easy heel toe shifter using mostly off the shelf parts. The bee this time was all of the posts about carbs,cleaning,hydrolock , syncing, warm up choke, cold weather starts,etc. So...I started researching all the posts about Fuel Injecting the GL1500 engine,including the GW forum 26 page post where it took the guy 2 and a 1/2 years to get it running. Sooo I know that many have tried or at least talked about it ,even talked about making a kit..... tough one to do....but I think I have  possibly a new proof of concept.
     I have mated a GL1800 fuel injection manifold /fuel rail/injectors,and throttle body to a 1500 Valkyrie.
Please, someone talk me out of this insanity before I go any deeper down this rabbit hole.
      The manifold and TB may be the easy part,all the sensors and the IAC are already in place on the Honda TB. If we want true sequential FI then some how a cam position sensor and 2   O2 sensors must be added. The ECU is the next hurdle.... A Megasquirt3 could do it easily as well as handling the ignition. This would yield a seriously flexible  and programmable system but also expensive.. Sooo . I would need some serious help here,..... but i figure we may be able to use a GW ECU which can be found cheaply if we can figure out the wiring connections.......Help...i can't stop myself.

[savy265]

most a/f  sensors work  on  a 0 to  5 volt reference, you  have  to  install  it  down stream  in  the  collector.The  epa  will  not  make  you  get  rid  of  something  that  came  stock  on  the  bikes[carbs]. Look  at  all  the  older  cars  still  on  the  road.

[Lyle Laun]

Sorry, I can't help you with your questions but if you can find a way to use the GW stuff you should have a winner.
I'd gladly ditch my carbs for FI and the possibility of more HP !

Regards

Lyle

[DGS65]

If you are looking for other projects maybe you can retrofit Anti locking breaks as well?

[Avanti]

You would need to change the MAP in the GL1800 ECU to correctly run a GL1500.
This company has hacked into the ECU of the GL1800 and is able to re-flash with changes. I would contact them for information which may or may not be helpful.

Guhl Motors
102 S. State St.
Ephrata, PA. 17522.
(717) 618-4212

[Bagger John - #3785]

If he's still around the board, JeffK has some of the answers you seek.

[Toovalks]

Thanks for that very important info. Avanti.  Its right down the line of what I needed...I envisioned this coming together using a harness adapter possibly that could plug into our ecu spot  thus connecting to our ecu sensors and possibly ignition. I assume that by MAP you were referring to the fuel map in the ECU.
I was only saying that a MAP sensor already comes on the 1800 Throttle body. I know I'm in over my head in several areas here."Meathead" as before on the shifter design, I began looking for ways to reuse or remake existing parts to make a project affordable. No one is paying for my R&D time,I'm in it  for the fun and learning... but as to reasons outside of fun and joy... This forum shows the passion that exists for these classic bikes especially Valks. Look at how many of us own more than one. It bothers me each time I see a video that these parting out places do of the running bike before they dismantle it. I read all of the posts about leaky petcocks,Hydrolock disasters, fuel rails leaking, expensive carb rebuilds, on and on.
What I was referring to about the idea that our bikes could be removed from the road comes under the heading that we have "all" (almost) changed something, jetting,desmoging new pipes,you name it.
  Under the federal law any changes that alter the original pollution controls are illegal and subject to fines. Whether you personally believe in global warming or not , the time may be coming when pollution testing may become mandatory in all 50 states like California. My bikes only have 13000 and 23000 miles on them...I'm 66 and would like to ride my Ghurls off into the sunset...really. I don't believe that I could pick up a F6B for the $1200 to 1500,1800 or less that FI  with off the shelf parts may  cost.
As I said before  if we must use a Megasquirt costs go up...it's 1.3 K by itself, but goldwing manifolds and TB's are cheap... I'm working on a adapter plate that could be cheaper depending on quantity. (it would require 6) I simply, at this point, cut a 1800 manifold in half, mated it up to our intake ports, and miraculously the TB fit back on it at an angle(the two ports were closer together). I have yet to fit the airbox on the TB's...that may require modifications, I may have jumped the gun ,bringing this out now but I was so excited at the serendipitous fit of the TB back on the modified manifold. By the way I have $42 invested so far . Once again here I'm not looking to get rich here offering a system. Just possibly rallying this community around an Idea that we may be able to make work by using the skills within this group . We have talented folks here that already make stuff for our Ghurls.  Happy New Year!!!

[oke]

Here's a quick summary of how I made a fuel injection to Valkyrie.
20181107_125952.jpg.
 


The idea was to implement it as simply as possible, and on the basis of "Plug and Play", in the event that someone else is eager to make the same change.
I ended up using gl1800 parts because I noticed their dimensional similarity.
20181021_192453.jpg.
 

So the first purchase was 1800 intake manifold and throttle body. You can find parts from the web, so it is easy. One must be careful that the purchases are as complete as possible (intake manifold, throttle body, fuel nozzles, fuel hoses, pressure regulator and as much of wiring as possible). Intake manifold is to be cut in half, and get it  welded to new position.
20161205_212506.jpg

 

The throttle body fits directly into the "new" modulated intake manifold.
20180413_222401.jpg 

The intake manifold fits into the cylinder heads with the help of adapters. Nozzles require their own space, which is taken into account in adapter design.
20180128_205212.jpg
 


I used the original air filter housing. The lover part of the bottom half of the air filter housing must be  removed  so that it becomes  flat. I "welded" a new flat bottom with a solder to fit with the adapter piece over the throttle body.
20171112_151810.jpg 

I moved the left side crash bar upper frame fastening point approx. 6mm forward to give space needed for the intake adapter.
20180302_205527.jpg 

For the same reason, I fixed the 1-2 coil in a new way. Fuel pump and filter are behind the engine, under the swing arm. I made the fuel return to the gas tank by adding an extra hole to the bottom of the tank. It was fitted with a rivet nut, in which can easily be attached  the hose spindle for the return hose.
20180817_190411.jpg
 

For the ECU I used the Hestec product. It is able to utilize bikes and throttle body's own sensors. Its final adjustment will take place in winter and the goal is a true plug and play system. I finally found all the necessary electrical connectors.
So far I have run only about 3000km with the EFI last summer, and everything worked fine.

That's the tale in short..
There is a lot of pictures and interested people can get more information if they wish.
All the parts are purchased second hand or "self-made", except ECU and fuel pump / filter. The adapters between the cylinder head and the intake manifold are also outsourced. For the other 3D printable parts, I have drawings and can be printed by anyone in the nearest "3D cafe".

That was the story about how I did it, but my way is just one of the possible ones.

Hopefully the report was of interest

20181102_230649.jpg 

Unfortynately I don´t know how to present the pictures. I could mail them to someone who can.

Best regards 

Oke

[Toovalks]

Man you have done it... It would seem that I have been on the same road as you  have already been down....I don't wish to duplicate effort ....how cool I'm very interested in all of your pictures... please PM me or lets get them out here on the forum. Did you go true sequential with a cam sensor ??? Or batch injection or side to side..... 02 sensors ...can't wait to see.

[Toovalks]

Oke . I'm going to need more info about HESTEC . Their whole site is in Finnish. How do we go about getting more info. Avanti, I have looked up Guhl motors ... they don't seem to be easy to e-mail.Thanks guys.

[98valk]

already been done. I think he has posted that he has 2 or 3 FI valkyries now. he has stated that really no benefit. u can search for his posts.

http://www.jkozloski.com/efi.htm

[Toovalks]

98VALK, I don't think for an instant that this is the first or even the 50th attempt
at FI.....not the point ....its been tried ,its been done,  any one can do it.....can we do it with off the shelf parts (mostly), economically ,something any one of us can decide to do without recreating the wheel and breaking the bank. That's the goal ,in my opinion, . It appears as if OKE from Finland has done it.... now can we refine it and make it available for those who want it??

[Brewer]

One of the pain points for our old gals is six carbs.... also one of the big gains.
When they run right life is great, if they sit or get out of adjustment.... well we all know they are a little picky. It all depends on your choice of solution.

[98valk]

98VALK, I don't think for an instant that this is the first or even the 50th attempt
at FI.....not the point ....its been tried ,its been done,  any one can do it.....can we do it with off the shelf parts (mostly), economically ,something any one of us can decide to do without recreating the wheel and breaking the bank. That's the goal ,in my opinion, . It appears as if OKE from Finland has done it.... now can we refine it and make it available for those who want it??

When converting a carbureted engine to EFI, there are certain aspects of the engine that need to be addressed in order for the system to work properly. Camshaft profiles that work well with a carbureted engine, may not work as well with the EFI system. This is because of the difference in intake manifold design between a carburetor manifold and some EFI manifolds. A common EFI conversion is to take the components from the Chevrolet Tuned Port Injection equipped Corvettes and Camaros and put them on older small block Chevrolet engines that were previously carbureted. Unless the camshaft is changed to match the Tuned Port intake, the result is not always favorable. In order to realize gains in performance, efficiency and drivability, it is important to make sure when using a particular EFI system that the camshaft match that particular system. The same theory holds true when developing an EFI intake manifold for an engine that was never available from the factory with fuel injection. If the conversion involves converting an existing carburetor intake manifold over to EFI then a camshaft change may not be needed. If a dramatically different intake manifold design is to be used, a cam change becomes necessary.
http://www.autotrendefi.com/engine.html

[Toovalks]

This is just the kind of useful information we need...to learn from.

[savy265]

A couple  of  things  to  think  about, cam  duration  and  lift  is  different on  a  fi car  to  a  carbed  one , also the  alternator, fi  alternators  have  noise reduction or  rf  signals reduced  ,and with  all  this  new amp  draw  will  the  alternators  handle  it

[98valk]

This is just the kind of useful information we need...to learn from.

there are four camshafts which can be used.   valkyrie OEM R1 or R2,  Goldwing 1500, or Web Cams.

as a side note Honda made to Carbs for the GW 1500 to actually work like fuel injectors. it was a complicated system. many at the time could not understand why they just didn't use the FI system that was used on their autos which they were doing in 1988.

[oke]

Here is the english site:

http://www.hestec.fi/english/

If you want to phone them:

Special Tuning Harinen Oy
Helmuntie 83, 37600 Valkeakoski, Finland
info@hestec.fi
tel. +358 (0)3 5849777

Ask: Anssi and tell greetings from Olli

[Toovalks]

Thanks OKE, they contacted me today. Oke PM'd me and emailed the pictures and info about his work.  if I can ,I'll get them posted here asap.
   You guys spurred me into researching about cams, still lots to learn. The couple of articles I have read so far , state that using carbureted cams on FI conversions generally increase torque across low to mid RPM and reduce top end HP slightly.
 However it is generally agreed that if a fully programmable ECU is controlling the system, differences between cams can be compensated for. This of course brings us back to something like Megasquirt,a more expensive option.
   Something else that was said about manifolds also got me thinking. I have purchased both 1500 and 1800 GW manifolds for researching this project. I was thinking about measuring the volume of each manifold . Am I wrong to imagine that the volume may affect the vacuum signal? I'm not yet sure if this is only important if we are going Alpha-n  type of FI . Clearly... there are many of you that have a much greater understanding of the nuances of FI than I.
    On another note... if this is just an academic exercise, and as a community we don't really Give a shi* if this gets developed I'll just shut up.

[Bigwolf]

Toovalks,
When changing manifolds, the volume does matter.  But what volume are you thinking about?

There is much to be considered when making changes to the manifold or changing manifolds. On a normally aspirated engine, The cross sectional volume of the runners and the length of the runners are critical to performance and must be matched to cylinder displacement, cam, the rpm range where maximum performance is desired, and other factors such as connecting rod angularity.  The volume of the plenum where the individual runners come together is also critical.  These considerations are very technical and beyond the knowledge and skill of the normal weekend mechanic. 

Can you make the 1500 engine run with the 1800 intake?  Yes.  Will it perform efficiently?  Not so much.  At least not as well as it could/would with a properly matched intake.

A better option would be to modify the Valkyrie carb bodies turning them into simple throttle plates and mount injectors in the tubes between them and the heads.  That would be fairly involved but the volume and length of the manifold would be correct and the end result would be a much stronger and smoother running Valkyrie.

The manifold dimensions and volume are not so important when running a blower.

Bigwolf

[oke]

I gained about 20hp and 40 N.m torq. Of course, my carbs could have been badly off tune. Yet still, it was good to ride. That`s why I hesitated to start the whole project. But I reached "the point of no return" and I had to finish it. You know, "A man has to do what a man has to do".
Since I have been busy at work, I have worked on it for almost three winters now, and I`m happy I have. A biker must have something to do during the long cold winters too. I have learned 3D drawing, 3D printing, met a punc of interesting people and (above all) spent a quality time: talking to people and spending time in garage.

Unfortynately I still don`t know how to send photos here, sorry.

[98valk]

I gained about 20hp and 40 N.m torq. Of course, my carbs could have been badly off tune. Yet still, it was good to ride. That`s why I hesitated to start the whole project. But I reached "the point of no return" and I had to finish it. You know, "A man has to do what a man has to do".
Since I have been busy at work, I have worked on it for almost three winters now, and I`m happy I have. A biker must have something to do during the long cold winters too. I have learned 3D drawing, 3D printing, met a punc of interesting people and (above all) spent a quality time: talking to people and spending time in garage.

Unfortynately I still don`t know how to send photos here, sorry.

before and after DYNO sheets showing 20HP gain, please post. For unless u changed the OEM exhaust, I doubt that much.

[oke]

98valk

I send you message

Hello 98valk. I have them as PDF files. Give me your email addres and I´ll send you the sheets. Then, if you can, please you put them on the VRCC site, since I don`t know how to do it. Greetings Oke.

[pancho]

This is getting interesting now,,,,  like to see those PDF files if you get them CA.

[Forge]

This is getting interesting now,,,,  like to see those PDF files if you get them CA.

We’re all dying to see them!

[Toovalks]

I have an E-mail from Oke with all kinds of pictures of his beautiful  work, including the
dyno runs. I have ask him if it's ok to use postimage.org, because they apparently retain nonexclusive rights to the pics. I CA doesn't get to it I'll try to make it happen after I hear back from Oke.

[98valk]

I'll email them to whoever wants them. I pm'd some already to email me.
I wasn't sent a baseline pre-FI run. It looks like what I was sent are two FI runs.
from charts

FI           77 kw = 103 hp   144 Nm = 106 ftlbs

FI           80 kw = 107 hp    151 Nm = 111 ftlbs

Before          81 hp              104 Nm = 77 ftlbs    the 81 hp should be listed as 81 Kw which is 108 hp to match the Nm numbers. A dyno chart has to be all Metric or SAE.

a/f ratio 11.5:1 both FI runs are Too rich and results in higher torque and less HP

[oke]

I don´t know where 98valk got the figures. The right ones are:
preFI 81,24 hp / 104,16 N-m
postFI 104,86 hp / 144,3 N-m

You can see, like I told, my carbs must have been very poorly tuned, although it felt allright when driving.
 

[pancho]

What are we missing here?  

https://www.google.com/search?gs_ivs=1&q=kilowatts+to+horsepower+converter



I see it,,,,   both reports on the second file are FI and the third file shows the carbs,,  I agree, your carbs must have been all out of whack oke,,, as most probably are.

Don't you have a dyno report with your carbs well tuned CA?  can you post that again?


Really nice work on the FI setup oke, I'm thoroughly impressed with the 3D adapter design, seems that would have been a bear to work out.  You said the throttle body fits directly on the modified maniflold?

Lost of good info Toovalks,, took a lot of the work out of it!

[98valk]

I don´t know where 98valk got the figures. The right ones are:
preFI 81,24 hp / 104,16 N-m
postFI 104,86 hp / 144,3 N-m

You can see, like I told, my carbs must have been very poorly tuned, although it felt allright when driving.
 

I just added the results from the pdf. I didn't post them since they do not make sense.  the power is listed as HP and the lbsft are listed in N-m.  So the 81.24 Hp has to be in Kw if torque is in N-m.  per the charts there is not a 24 hp gain from the FI system since the 81.24 has to be Kw to match the N-m.

[oke]

If your theory is right, it exblains why the bike felt OK already before the FI. And it means that the tuneup was exellent before and the carburettors and engine is in very good nick. Maybe because the torq is higher, it feels even better now. Or it could be only my imagination, placebo feeling.  Good either way.

[pancho]

If that was true,, then the bike was making 108HP before any work was done....  Doesn't that seem a bit high for a valk?  Why not just accept what the chart says? The discrepancy could be a programming glitch.

[98valk]

If your theory is right, it exblains why the bike felt OK already before the FI. And it means that the tuneup was exellent before and the carburettors and engine is in very good nick. Maybe because the torq is higher, it feels even better now. Or it could be only my imagination, placebo feeling.  Good either way.

get the A/F down to 12.5 - 13.1 and HP will go up and torque will come down.  it will run better.

my last dyno, operator is a pro-stock racer, I was pig rich on the main jet, a/f 10.5.  I dropped two sizes and the bike really woke up. He said being that rich, I was down at least 10hp.

[98valk]

If that was true,, then the bike was making 108HP before any work was done....  Doesn't that seem a bit high for a valk?  Why not just accept what the chart says? The discrepancy could be a programming glitch.

many variables can affect a dyno jet dyno including the operator. a mustang type dyno is the best to use even though its called the heart breaker. But as Marc from FactoryPro told me once, its always what the engine wants on the street and track and not the dyno.

its just a tool.

from the charts, he is actually making less HP with the FI, due to it being too rich. He needs to re-calibrate the A/F and HP will come up and put more HP and torque under the curve and not just at WOT.

[oke]

pancho
Yes, the throttle body fits directly on the modified manifold. The distance of the  holes on the manifold is precisely the same before and after the modification. A slight adjustment is dealt by the design of the adapters between the manifold and cylinder head.

I wanted to make it look like it would have been factory made. Of course if one takes a close look, it´s obvious it´s not. But at least it doesn´t look like it´s made of old sewer plumbing either.

There is lots of finishing to be done, but winters are for that. Last August it was a bit like doing  an emergency section in its birth. I wanted to have it on the road, and get ridden at least some kilometres.

[Avanti]

I have an E-mail from Oke with all kinds of pictures of his beautiful  work, including the
dyno runs. I have ask him if it's ok to use postimage.org, because they apparently retain nonexclusive rights to the pics. I CA doesn't get to it I'll try to make it happen after I hear back from Oke.

Has permission been given to post pictures?