Ethanol free gas

[f6john]

I just bought some this past weekend for my mower and weed eater ect. $3.49 a gallon. Then today on the Valkyrie Facebook page I see a video of a guy separating the ethanol from his 5 gallon container of 91 octane e10 gas. He takes a gallon jug with a reference mark on the side and fills it with water up to the bottom of the mark, probably about 2/3’s of a gallon. For demonstration purposes he pours the water in a huge glass jug. E then pours in approximately 5 gallons of gas. The water and the ethanol will mix but the gas won’t. He shakes the jug for a little bit and then let’s the jug sit and the heavier water/ethanol mix settles to the bottom. He then uses a siphon pump to remove the separated water from the bottom of the jug into his gallon jug with the reference mark. Once all the water is drawn out the amount over the reference mark is the volume of ethanol removed along with the water! Ingenious but simple chemistry.

A little trouble but cheaper than having to drive almost 30 miles to buy ethanol free gas and pay extra for the trouble. I’m going to see what I can find as a mixing container that has or can have a drain in the very bottom so I wouldn’t need to siphon out the water. As in the video I watched you know you got it all when you see a little gas floating on top of the water you have just drained off.

[Chrisj CMA]

The problem with that is...the octane rating is WITH the ethanol. Once it’s removed there will be significantly less energy in the remaining gas. I’m not sure how many points it drops but I would surely start with the highest octane you can.

[MarkT]

Interesting.  A lot of trouble though.  I'm glad that for now, the closest gas to the ranch is a Murphy's on the W side of Elizabeth, with corn-free gas.  About 3 miles away - pretty close for our rural area!  I keep all the vehicles filled with it, and several 5 gal cans as well.  Which I rotate periodically and add seafoam when the use slows down.  I know corn-free gas availability will change but hopefully not soon unless it's to the better.

[scooperhsd]

My closest station with ethanol free gas is about 1-1.5 miles over the railroad yard. I usually fill my Valk with it, especially if it may be sitting awhile.

[Jess from VA]

It is a 50mi (X 2) round trip for me to get no-corn polluted gas.  I drive out about 2 times a year and get a bunch.

It also happens to be out where I do most of my riding, so I always top off out there before coming home.

I'm not made of money, but I can afford it.

I will not be mixing water and gas in my back yard.

Figuring out how to get gas out of my new truck would be nice (via the injection system), as that is 24 gallons, and I would not mind paying extra for it to have that much on hand in a perfect storage container.  But I am no mechanic.  Of course, that new truck runs OK on corn crap, but it runs better on pure gas.

All politicians loving corn polluted gas should be pumped full of it and shot off like bottle rockets on the 4th of July.  

I like farmers a lot, and if they need help, another way should be discovered to do so than carburetor fouling, substandard gasoline forced on the public.

I know bolt action rifles fire slower and less often than select fire autos, but I don't favor our troops going back to bolt action rifles to save on ammo either.

http://blog.jackssmallengines.com/2015/04/see-ethanol-damage-up-close/

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2013/11/impact-of-todays-fuels-n-carbureted-engines/







 

[f6john]

The problem with that is...the octane rating is WITH the ethanol. Once it’s removed there will be significantly less energy in the remaining gas. I’m not sure how many points it drops but I would surely start with the highest octane you can.

That was why the guy was starting with 91 instead of 87. And even though he was posting on the Valkyrie site, he was putting it in a 1920’s something Indian. Of course he also mentioned that he mixes a little 2 cycle oil in the gas for his Indian.

Burning ethanol gas is not the problem, what it does to internal components, seals, lines ect. Cost me $450.00 to repair my Honda Rincon and I already spent $600.00 on the Valkyrie years ago to address similar problems. When I lived in Hopkinsville, I had several places to go just minutes from my house, not so here in Richmond Ky.

I’m not endorsing the water process or suggesting everyone should run ethanol free gas. I simply wanted to share what I found very interesting.

[Jess from VA]

No Plug, those are not my carburetors.  Just Googled and copy-paste corn gas in carburetors.

My two valks have never had a problem, but it has taken a lot of gas mixing with multiple additives, and writing down dates of purchase in a book, and riding and running over the winters (which I enjoy less in my advancing years).  You are not that far south of me, but I bet winter riding is easier for you than me.

Yes, if you run all your corn gas out regularly inside two months, you may never have a problem.

I like to keep 20 gallons on hand at all times for emergency and power outage, not corn gas.  

Counting my two valks, I have 22 carburetors at my house, and I have not always taken as good of care of blowers, mowers, chipper vacs, power washers, whackers, generators, etc as I have for my bikes, and my bills at the local (great) lawnmower shop proves it.  Those guys love corn gas, it keeps them in business.  Just like motorcycle dealers, they cannot keep their doors open on new and used sales, it is service that keeps them afloat.  And business is always booming over there, as they support hundreds of local professional landscape/mowing contractors (and a Stihl dealer), which is ALL carburetors.  

I now make the effort to get and use only corn-free gas for all of this stuff, and that is a PITA.  And even corn free doesn't last forever, but at least it doesn't start going bad after only 30 days... esp in summer heat.

I will never use E85, even though my new truck is guaranteed to run on it.

Even though you say your bike runs fine on corn gas, if you get a chance to run it low, and then fill with corn free, you can actually notice an increase in power (especially blasting down the freeway at speed).  (seat of the pants Dyno or not)  And you will get at least a couple MPG improvement.

The only time my bikes will ever see corn gas again is on long trips, running tank to tank.

[Patrick]

It is a 50mi (X 2) round trip for me to get no-corn polluted gas.  I drive out about 2 times a year and get a bunch.

It also happens to be out where I do most of my riding, so I always top off out there before coming home.

I'm not made of money, but I can afford it.

I will not be mixing water and gas in my back yard.

Figuring out how to get gas out of my new truck would be nice (via the injection system), as that is 24 gallons, and I would not mind paying extra for it to have that much on hand in a perfect storage container.  But I am no mechanic.  Of course, that new truck runs OK on corn crap, but it runs better on pure gas.

All politicians loving corn polluted gas should be pumped full of it and shot off like bottle rockets on the 4th of July.  

I like farmers a lot, and if they need help, another way should be discovered to do so than carburetor fouling, substandard gasoline forced on the public.

I know bolt action rifles fire slower and less often than select fire autos, but I don't favor our troops going back to bolt action rifles to save on ammo either.

http://blog.jackssmallengines.com/2015/04/see-ethanol-damage-up-close/

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2013/11/impact-of-todays-fuels-n-carbureted-engines/







 

[Steve K (IA)]

Has there been a real scientific test regarding 10% ethanol and motorcycles?  I don't know of anybody who had a problem with it.  I've used it since 2006, when Florida made it the law.  If ethanol gas is bad, why does my motorcycle run so well?

  
Good question.  I've been using it since I bought my I/S new in 2000 (first tank) except when traveling and can't find it.  I could never tell the difference in performance and mpg when having to switch to non ethanol.  And I check my mileage at every fill. 
As an example, I've traveled 1000's of miles with Blackdog.  When we would fill up on average I might take .1 gal more...he uses straight gas.  I like to tell people that here in The Tall Corn State, our ethanol is made with premium corn squeezin's. 
The current problems I'm having right now is because the bike sat longer than usual.  It is gradually getting better.  And I store it with non-ethanol.

[Jess from VA]

Patrick, I see you quoted my post, but I see no comment.  Did you have one?

[Jess from VA]

This is from Pure Gas.org.  It is a listing of real-gas gas stations.  It is consumer created, so there are no doubt others that are not listed.  There appear to be a few in NC.  

https://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/map.jsp?statecode=NC

The closest one to Vass on here looks like:  
Tommy's Crown  7941 Us Hwy 15, West End, NC; 910-295-0042; ethanol-free PURE 87

Maps says it is 11.5 miles from downtown Vass.  
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Tommy's+Crown,+7941+US-15,+Pinehurst,+NC+28374/Vass,+NC/@35.2633081,-79.4346196,12z/data=

[cookiedough]

Hello Jess.  Is that carb yours?  Nobody wants that one!  When FL Gov. Jeb Bush signed the E10 law into effect, it was oh sh.....  Anyway, trouble like those pictures has avoided me.  My Valkyrie engine runs smoothly with plenty of power.  Our 1925 Ford does OK, too. 

Have you tried E85?  A few years ago when gas was expensive, I ran across an E85 station that was really cheap.  My F150 V8 will burn that.  Try it!  The mileage dropped immediately from 20 to 15.  No savings there.  The "miles per dollar" was the same.  No harm done but no benefit, either.

Ride safe.

Yep,  E85 is a joke and so not worth it.  My tundra can use it and have tried it a few times is all 2-3 times in a row to make sure all E85 in gas tank.  Mileage went from 16-17 mostly hwy. to 13.5-14 hwy  miles, about a 3 mpg loss difference which is about a 20% mpg reduction.  If E85 is not say 25% or more cheaper which it is NOT right now,  you are loosing money. 

Plus, harder upward tranny shifting was evident and jerkier as well not as smooth.

E85 in WI is all around me having several E85 gas stations nearby but I will NEVER use it again even if 30% cheaper.  Now, I do use E88 which is 15% ethanol in my tundra saving 5 cents per gallon and only notice at most a .20 mpg difference vs. E10 gas.  I figure that is not a bad deal considering is a 38 gallon gas tank filled up near weekly if not taking the scooter/cycle to work daily that is.

[F6Dave]

If the fuel system is designed to withstand alcohol, and the vehicle is driven regularly, E10 ethanol probably won't cause any damage.  The damage usually occurs in vehicles that sit around, because ethanol absorbs moisture from the atmosphere and over time the water separates from the fuel.

I saw this first hand in my old BMW Airhead.  It sat through an entire winter, and wouldn't fire when I tried starting it in the spring.  The Bing carbs on those old bikes have bowls held on by spring clips and can be removed in seconds.  I pulled the bowls and saw blobs of water floating around on the bottom.  I dumped them out, filled the tank with fresh gas, and turned the key on to refill the carbs.  Interestingly these 31 year old bikes came with electric fuel valves!  The bike started right up.

Luckily I caught this in time to prevent serious damage.  But fuel made with corn likker can do serious damage, especially to small engines in power equipment that sit around for months.  It's even worse for boats stored in or near water, which is why marinas sell ethanol free gasoline.

It's a shame we're stuck with this scam.  It enriches farmers and distillers in the Midwest at the expense of millions of us.  There's no environmental benefit; in fact some studies show more energy is consumed to produce the stuff than it yields, and the massive water and fertilizer usage are another environmental negative.  Ethanol also reduces your gas mileage as there are fewer BTUs in a gallon of the stuff than in gasoline.  It even raises food prices.  Since ethanol is subsidized, millions of acres that used to produce livestock feed and other crops now grow corn, raising the prices of those other grains.

[Jess from VA]

And maybe the biggest reason this scam on the American people cannot (or will not) be rescinded anytime soon.

214 ethanol production plants (with associated employment).  And corn farmers (corporate agro).



That, and federal laws:

In 1990, Clean Air Act amendments mandated winter use of E10 (10 percent ethanol) in 39 locations known for high ozone levels, and followed with year-round use in nine locations, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.

Two years later, the Energy Policy Act of 1992 was signed in an effort to reduce the nation's dependence on imported oil.

In 2007, President George W. Bush signed the Energy Independence and Security Act that required the use of 15 billion gallons of ethanol by 2015.

And of course, I'm sure the ethanol/oil/corn industries never contribute to political campaigns.  

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/02/10/466010209/the-shocking-truth-about-americas-ethanol-law-it-doesnt-matter-for-now

[scooperhsd]

Are we actually importing oil because we can't produce enough, or is it because the imported oil is cheaper to drill / process etc. ?

[F6Dave]

Are we actually importing oil because we can't produce enough, or is it because the imported oil is cheaper to drill / process etc. ?

U.S. oil production has more than doubled in the last decade.  I worked for Texaco back in the 1980s and at that time, not a single person would have believed this was possible.  In fact, most of the large companies were adjusting their budgets to focus more on overseas drilling.

If you include Canada and Mexico, I believe North America could actually be self sufficient.  But often imports and exports are driven by economic or logistical factors.  It may make more sense for New England states to import oil from the North Sea rather than transport it from Texas or Alaska.  Likewise some Alaskan crude may get shipped to Asia.

Our increased natural gas production is just as amazing.  In the last year or two the U.S. has become a net exporter.  Some of this is liquefied (LNG) and shipped to places like Europe and Asia, where they are paying far more than we do.  In some countries this competes with gas from Russia, who has had a monopoly and been able to charge whatever they want.  Russia hates competition.  They've funded anti-fracking protests in Europe to keep their captive market from drilling for their own gas.

The 'shale revolution' has made the U.S. the largest oil and gas producer in the world.  That's incredible.

[F6Dave]

And maybe the biggest reason this scam on the American people cannot (or will not) be rescinded anytime soon.

214 ethanol production plants (with associated employment).  And corn farmers (corporate agro).



That, and federal laws:

In 1990, Clean Air Act amendments mandated winter use of E10 (10 percent ethanol) in 39 locations known for high ozone levels, and followed with year-round use in nine locations, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.

Two years later, the Energy Policy Act of 1992 was signed in an effort to reduce the nation's dependence on imported oil.

In 2007, President George W. Bush signed the Energy Independence and Security Act that required the use of 15 billion gallons of ethanol by 2015.

And of course, I'm sure the ethanol/oil/corn industries never contribute to political campaigns.  

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2016/02/10/466010209/the-shocking-truth-about-americas-ethanol-law-it-doesnt-matter-for-now

They also spend lots of money trying to fool the public about their product.  They are huge NASCAR and IndyCar sponsors.

[f6john]

Everything has its place. I think the development of alternative fuel is a good thing that could be important in the future. I don’t believe that the technology to use a fuel such as ethanol to its full potential has been developed. It may never make sense from an economic standpoint especially as long as politicians are in the mix. I do know that guys running twin turbos with boost numbers making huge horsepower love E85. Not exactly mainstream though.

[F6Dave]

Everything has its place. I think the development of alternative fuel is a good thing that could be important in the future. I don’t believe that the technology to use a fuel such as ethanol to its full potential has been developed. It may never make sense from an economic standpoint especially as long as politicians are in the mix. I do know that guys running twin turbos with boost numbers making huge horsepower love E85. Not exactly mainstream though.

If ethanol has potential, let some entrepreneur develop it, and prove it, with his own money.  Don't subsidize it and force us to buy the stuff.  Let the marketplace decide.

[scooperhsd]

+1.

I think my Valk likes pure gas better than the ethanol "enhanced" gas. Fortunately, for me right now - that's my only gas powered vehicle (cars are both VW diesels).

[scooperhsd]

This is from Pure Gas.org.  It is a listing of real-gas gas stations.  It is consumer created, so there are no doubt others that are not listed.  There appear to be a few in NC. 

https://www.pure-gas.org/extensions/map.jsp?statecode=NC

The closest one to Vass on here looks like: 
Tommy's Crown  7941 Us Hwy 15, West End, NC; 910-295-0042; ethanol-free PURE 87

Maps says it is 11.5 miles from downtown Vass. 
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Tommy's+Crown,+7941+US-15,+Pinehurst,+NC+28374/Vass,+NC/@35.2633081,-79.4346196,12z/data=

Thanks, Jess.

There's a Citgo In Franklinton on US 1 that had Ethanol free ( 88 - 90 octane) when I left the area. Down at the south part of Franklinton, but still north of the southern entrance to US 1 Business into Franklinton.

[Bighead]

Everything has its place. I think the development of alternative fuel is a good thing that could be important in the future. I don’t believe that the technology to use a fuel such as ethanol to its full potential has been developed. It may never make sense from an economic standpoint especially as long as politicians are in the mix. I do know that guys running twin turbos with boost numbers making huge horsepower love E85. Not exactly mainstream though.

That E 85 better have a 90 or higher octane or those engines will implode pretty quickly.

[f6john]

Everything has its place. I think the development of alternative fuel is a good thing that could be important in the future. I don’t believe that the technology to use a fuel such as ethanol to its full potential has been developed. It may never make sense from an economic standpoint especially as long as politicians are in the mix. I do know that guys running twin turbos with boost numbers making huge horsepower love E85. Not exactly mainstream though.

That E 85 better have a 90 or higher octane or those engines will implode pretty quickly.

Octane is fine but as others have said fewer btu’s. The cars run huge injectors and are tuned specifically for ethanol. If they implode or explode it’s usually due to the tune being off or parts not up to the stress.

[f6john]

Everything has its place. I think the development of alternative fuel is a good thing that could be important in the future. I don’t believe that the technology to use a fuel such as ethanol to its full potential has been developed. It may never make sense from an economic standpoint especially as long as politicians are in the mix. I do know that guys running twin turbos with boost numbers making huge horsepower love E85. Not exactly mainstream though.

If ethanol has potential, let some entrepreneur develop it, and prove it, with his own money.  Don't subsidize it and force us to buy the stuff.  Let the marketplace decide.

I agree completely, hence my reference to the politicians.

[ridingron]

Unfortunately, the US chose corn as a base for our ethanol. Corn is used a source for many foods and food products, animal and human. The food cost are driven up by the competition for raw product. Other less demand vegetables could have been used.

[Bighead]

Men, may I ask a question? 

I used to work in Daytona Beach.  There was one little store on the way to Deland that had ethanol-free gas.  It was from an old gas pump by the side of the building.  You could tell it was seldom used.  Would you buy gas from that?  Or, to get E10 from a Shell station that sold a lot of fuel?

Side pump if for a small engine.

[Bighead]

Everything has its place. I think the development of alternative fuel is a good thing that could be important in the future. I don’t believe that the technology to use a fuel such as ethanol to its full potential has been developed. It may never make sense from an economic standpoint especially as long as politicians are in the mix. I do know that guys running twin turbos with boost numbers making huge horsepower love E85. Not exactly mainstream though.

That E 85 better have a 90 or higher octane or those engines will implode pretty quickly.

Octane is fine but as others have said fewer btu’s. The cars run huge injectors and are tuned specifically for ethanol. If they implode or explode it’s usually due to the tune being off or parts not up to the stress.

My car requires 90+ octane. High compression and a twin turbo.  Engine will not run long on lesser octane. That is what my statement was based on.
Also my ‘97 bee requires 93 octane after the attic rat GLH package. The higher compression wont last on a low octane.

[Jess from VA]

If you are concerned about old gas, simply go in and ask how often they are refilled by tanker, or when they were last refilled.  Those who sell non corn polluted gas must have a stand alone tank for it. 

But never gas up in a station that is being refilled by tanker when you drive in (no matter what type of gas).

[cookiedough]

Everything has its place. I think the development of alternative fuel is a good thing that could be important in the future. I don’t believe that the technology to use a fuel such as ethanol to its full potential has been developed. It may never make sense from an economic standpoint especially as long as politicians are in the mix. I do know that guys running twin turbos with boost numbers making huge horsepower love E85. Not exactly mainstream though.

and that twin turbo BS in becoming mainstream in almost every single car made today.  More and more this year are becoming small 1.5L (under 2.0L) dinky engines the same size as our Valk engines that are high output, high revving single or twin turbos.  Even heard rumors my 5.7L V8 in my newer toyota tundra which has not changed one bit since 2007 when they first came out was then leader of the pack by far biggest baddest stock 1/2 ton motor with 6 speed tranny  (rest of mfgs. still had 4 speed automatics in 2007), now will be going the way of ford f150 3.5L V6 twin turbo.  Say it ain't so since might have to switch to DODGE RAM then with their 5.7L hemi V8, but reliability and resale sucks on Ram trucks vs. Tundra.

As far as mixing water with gas and separating,  how would one know 100% sure all the water is out of the gas?  Way too much trouble and headache worrying about water in gas line am sure causing even more issues with engine/stalling out, etc.

I have only gotten bad gas twice in my life at gas stations and that was long ago in the 80's the tank became contaminated local gas station and caused issues with 100's of cars starting/keeping running am sure, not just mine. 

[f6john]

Everything has its place. I think the development of alternative fuel is a good thing that could be important in the future. I don’t believe that the technology to use a fuel such as ethanol to its full potential has been developed. It may never make sense from an economic standpoint especially as long as politicians are in the mix. I do know that guys running twin turbos with boost numbers making huge horsepower love E85. Not exactly mainstream though.

and that twin turbo BS in becoming mainstream in almost every single car made today.  More and more this year are becoming small 1.5L (under 2.0L) dinky engines the same size as our Valk engines that are high output, high revving single or twin turbos.  Even heard rumors my 5.7L V8 in my newer toyota tundra which has not changed one bit since 2007 when they first came out was then leader of the pack by far biggest baddest stock 1/2 ton motor with 6 speed tranny  (rest of mfgs. still had 4 speed automatics in 2007), now will be going the way of ford f150 3.5L V6 twin turbo.  Say it ain't so since might have to switch to DODGE RAM then with their 5.7L hemi V8, but reliability and resale sucks on Ram trucks vs. Tundra.

Nissan beat them to the punch with the Titan in 04 and a 5.6 liter V8. I bought an 05 with 8000 miles back in 06 and still going strong at 180,000 miles. Not sure why they never caught on in big numbers, mine will pass everything except a gas station, 4x4 and 3:36 gearing and no 6th gear. And now you can get a Cummins too.

[cookiedough]

Everything has its place. I think the development of alternative fuel is a good thing that could be important in the future. I don’t believe that the technology to use a fuel such as ethanol to its full potential has been developed. It may never make sense from an economic standpoint especially as long as politicians are in the mix. I do know that guys running twin turbos with boost numbers making huge horsepower love E85. Not exactly mainstream though.

and that twin turbo BS in becoming mainstream in almost every single car made today.  More and more this year are becoming small 1.5L (under 2.0L) dinky engines the same size as our Valk engines that are high output, high revving single or twin turbos.  Even heard rumors my 5.7L V8 in my newer toyota tundra which has not changed one bit since 2007 when they first came out was then leader of the pack by far biggest baddest stock 1/2 ton motor with 6 speed tranny  (rest of mfgs. still had 4 speed automatics in 2007), now will be going the way of ford f150 3.5L V6 twin turbo.  Say it ain't so since might have to switch to DODGE RAM then with their 5.7L hemi V8, but reliability and resale sucks on Ram trucks vs. Tundra.

Nissan beat them to the punch with the Titan in 04 and a 5.6 liter V8. I bought an 05 with 8000 miles back in 06 and still going strong at 180,000 miles. Not sure why they never caught on in big numbers, mine will pass everything except a gas station, 4x4 and 3:36 gearing and no 6th gear. And now you can get a Cummins too.

yah, that Nissan Titan is pretty nice and reliable, just do not like the looks as much interior or exterior (looks are subjective everyone has their own opinions on what is good/bad), but the price is right cheaper than the tundra was and now comparing pricing of tundra vs. chevy and ford trucks, is cheaper as well, if you call msrp near 40K cheap anymore?  If you look at the ford ranger or chevy colorado or tacoma truck being only 2-3 grand less than a full sized 1/2 ton truck,  wonder why anyone would even consider a mid-sized (if that even) truck not a true 1/2 ton that only gets 3-5 more mpg is all as well.  I like the dodge ram since can get my 1/2 ton crew cab with 6 1/2 foot bed, but the reliability and resale is not as good as the tundra, but still can get the 5.7L V8 hemi on par with my 5.7L V8 tundra.

Not a fan of turbos though and probably never will be but that is what the mfgs. are all putting out nowadays and will continue to until all electric vehicles come about, hopefully not in my lifetime.

[valknation]

Very cool! I didn't know you could separate the ethanol from the gas like that. Thankfully the station just a few miles from the house sells straight gas.