Getting the splines to mesh - what are your hints? Help again!

[The emperor has no clothes]

Make sure you use the correct order for tightening everything up. 

[JimC]

What works for me is to raise the swing arm pretty much parallel to the floor, look into it with a flashlight from the rear and use a broom stick (I think 3/4 inch round handle) and stick it down the swing arm and into the U-joint and level the U-joint so it is pointing straight back.  Yo may have to turn the U-joint so it will stay up where you want it.

It should be easy to wiggle the driveshaft into the U-joint at that point.

Jim

[mello dude]

What works for me is to raise the swing arm pretty much parallel to the floor, look into it with a flashlight from the rear and use a broom stick (I think 3/4 inch round handle) and stick it down the swing arm and into the U-joint and level the U-joint so it is pointing straight back.  Yo may have to turn the U-joint so it will stay up where you want it.

It should be easy to wiggle the driveshaft into the U-joint at that point.

Jim

Thank for the idea, maybe I'll need that sometime.
So I was wondering a few things......
Is it possible to miss the u joint and still have the drive assembly mate up?

My wheel again is giving me fits not going together for the last quarter inch.... 
 Going on 3  times trying so far... and yes the 4'drive bolts are loose...
I'm wondering if an o ring is getting pinched on assembly.
I even pulled the drive off the wheel to check fit... jeez, it was easier the first time...
Quitting for now.. kinda burnt......

[Chrisj CMA]

No, it is not possible to mate the final drive to flange all the way and have the drive shaft miss the yolk.

[mello dude]

No, it is not possible to mate the final drive to flange all the way and have the drive shaft miss the yolk.

Thanks for that.....
I'm taking a VFR ride day to clear my head and mbe process this thing what is going on....

[mello dude]

Picking this thing up again on the spline meshing problem.... wtf is going on?
Really decided to dig a bit on this, why is this thing not going together.....

And the real answer is that the 3rd oring does not seat as well as the OEM part from the factory did. I replaced with several orings for trys.... also scraped the groove on the shaft, cleaned it with Qtips and double checked that the Oring could rotate freely.... So after 6 or 8 off on off on off on, its obvious that the spline from the wheel is catching on the oring and not allowing it to get passed the thing and be fully seated per factory.

Ok... I am dead in the water with this if I dont get passed this...

What do you think gang? What am I missing? -- I'm tempted to delete the damn thing (oring)...j/k

[hubcapsc]

Ok... I am dead in the water with this if I dont get passed this...

On the left is a dirty old flange I got off the floor of my shed with an
old O-ring that has been hanging on a hook in the shed for 10 or so years.

On the right is a nice flange with a new O-ring.

When I insert the nice flange with the new O-ring into my spare final
drive it plugs in as you would want.

When I insert the old flange with the old O-ring into my spare final
drive, I can't get it to plug in, the O-ring pushes out of the groove in
the flange each time I try.

As I read your last post, maybe you're not using an OEM O-ring?... Anyhow,
I've never had a problem using a good flange and a new OEM O-ring... is
your O-ring getting pushed out of the groove like the one on the left
in my picture?



-Mike

[pancho]

I'm tempted to delete the damn thing (oring)...j/k

Don't do that! That area must stay sealed to keep from damaging the splines. It appears you have one of those aftermarket red o-rings in there, thicker than the OEM. They can be used, but take a good deal of pressure to get them to seat. replace that o-ring with another of the proper size and it will go in.

Your getting there,,, it will be easier next time.


Hey Mike,, even that flange off the floor looks like a good one if cleaned up,, looks like you still have plenty of spares.

[mello dude]

I have the problem whether I use the new OEM o-rings or I also bought the Red Eye set.
When I compare OEM vs Red Eye, they appear identical in dimensions.
I started this thing with OEM in the first place.....
The issue is about the small oring that goes on the final drive...it's catching on the front edge of the wheel spline.

I haven't been able to seat the assembly together enough for the one on the wheel splines to make contact yet...




Major frustration going on.....aaaaahhhh!

[hubcapsc]

I have the problem whether I use the new OEM o-rings or I also bought the Red Eye set.

Well... I'm old, I need glasses, maybe you do too? Look down in your pumpkin, maybe with
your camera... is there something mashed down in there, an old O-ring or something...? I can't
think of much that should be causing your awful problem, the flange ought to go in... ?



-Mike "sorry, there's old grease in my spare final so you can't see down in there as well as otherwise..."

[The emperor has no clothes]

It's hard to tell from your pic, but it looks like you have so much grease in there it's "splooging" out. I think I would start over by completely cleaning it out, putting on new orings and grease.

[jbrooks]

right on meathead. Way too much grease.

[Valkpilot]

It's hard to tell from your pic, but it looks like you have so much grease in there it's "splooging" out. I think I would start over by completely cleaning it out, putting on new orings and grease.

Agreed. 

Also, the Redeye polyurethane o-rings are quite a bit less "soft" than the OEM.  They will not allow the driven star hub to be pushed in as easily.  He discusses that, with a technique for seating it, in the instructions:
https://4131e5e5-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/valkparts/Home/instructions-and-stuff-like-that/FinalDriveO.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7cq3dgBq7I-OcvbEM1clYYnHZ7DYWqqDKmgDDd2OO30-pvf59U2hSswIYbsHrCe7XpwFyZtzqmboSbtbMrH5NxPO-_rBxeYLqKr97o0myG9NtKrdLEsIcC8D2uCM8NE0E_zUOJV2vhS5LpWNqylfOTNxa-zSMVSaqUFvI04Ofd13eC6tQAOg8crRQNnNTlxcwAkKTHUCfhu90ZcFMh_atRqTEpvtJSvXQkF1XvQuJgQLM6XEDyQYs34a0WsRXFSS50tTlPKR1aH5VuLMac0QCZGRCeft6g%3D%3D&attredirects=0

Some will say damning things about the Red-eye o-rings because of their rigidity, but all his reasoning for using that material makes a great deal of sense to me, so I use them.

[mello dude]

Just a note to say I appreciate all you guys help 
Seems like it shouldnt be this hard, after all, I had it all together once before.
I am taking a break for a few days to let it sink in... I am wondering if that piece on the pumpkin side where the oring goes can slip out for some good cleaning.

Cheers, back later... 

[The emperor has no clothes]

Just a note to say I appreciate all you guys help  
Seems like it shouldnt be this hard, after all, I had it all together once before.
I am taking a break for a few days to let it sink in... I am wondering if that piece on the pumpkin side where the oring goes can slip out for some good cleaning.

Cheers, back later...  

I’m not sure if I understand what you mean. I will tell you what I do. I’m sure there are plenty here that do it better and quicker though.
 I take the entire pumpkin-driveshaft assembly out. Remove the driveshaft. Clean out pinion cup, hub area, shaft, flange with paper towels, q-tips, and then spray it clean with carb cleaner. Grease all areas. Reassemble. I haven’t used the Redeye o-rings, so I haven’t needed the technique with the mallet. I put the axle thru without the brake mount or the spacer. Then it’s just a straight pull to mount the flange in correctly. Pull axle back out enough to install brake and spacer. Tighten brake locator, axle, 4 drive shaft nuts. Reinstall shocks, bags, seat. (I hope I remembered everything in order) if not I’m sure it will be noted.

[SCain]

It's hard to tell from your pic, but it looks like you have so much grease in there it's "splooging" out. I think I would start over by completely cleaning it out, putting on new orings and grease.

 
Years ago, I had put too much grease on the splines and inside the pumpkin and I couldn't get the splines to go all the way in just like what you are describing. The excess grease was causing an air pocket and would not let the splines go in all the way. Removed some of the grease so it wouldn't pack in there and everything was fine.
Wanted to share this, not saying you have too much but its something to look at.

[0leman]

I just did my rear end maintenance Saturday.  I actually screwed up, must be getting a lot older, and did not do the normal maintenance at 10k and went to 15K. I was looking at my miles and thought I saw that I had 3-4k to go to normal miles to do the work.   Anyway, everything was well greased and looked good.

Other than taking a few minutes to wiggle the drive shaft back into the U-Joint (not long enough to new bad words), the re-assembly went find.  No problem with pulling the gears back together.  I used OEM O-rings and lots of grease.   

AND yes did the right procedure in axel tightening first then the 4 nuts. 

[RWhitehouse]

Hey Bighead and Sandy --- did both of your hints - it worked! Whoo hoo!

Been a moto geek wrenching foole for 30 years and learned something new.
Mucho Thanks!  

The four drive-to-driveshaft bolts should only be tightened after the axle bolt is torqued.  If you didn't do it in that order, loosen and do it again.  (No need to disassemble.)

If you don't do it in this order, there's a possibility the drive and driven splines in the rear drive and star hub will not be well aligned and they will eventually chew each other up.

No matter what type of lube you use, no matter how much, the mis-alignment will win and ruin your drive.

I suspect this is a much bigger factor when people have excessive spline wear/failure than not greasing frequently enough, and why even with regular greasing people suddenly have a massive amount of wear at one interval.

I didn't realize this the first time I had the back wheel off, and while everything went together fine, I noticed a slight vibration from the rear end, not wheel balance, much higher frequency. Noticed it most when coasting down from higher speeds. I just loosened everything up, then tightened the axle, then tightened the drive, the vibration went away. I suspect the vibration was splines rubbing. I didn't see any noticeable wear at the next service, but I could see that over the course of 50k+ miles of that, chewing the splines up especially coupled with no grease.

[mello dude]

Screwing around some more.....
- First as note ...I already pulled the pumpkin and drive shaft off regreased and got the drive shaft back into the U-joint... done with that....not pulling off again....

- So the issue is getting the Flange set #8 to seat fully on to the final drive set.....
https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/42630-MT8-305?ref=bf6a57c99767a2ff609bc2d15e58c52da5f7b037

Once I know I can do it, then it goes back in the wheel and then I can finish the install.

- So what it really is coming down to is all about adventures in orings...the photos are decieving, the RedEye and OEM dimension are identical.


. how well the 3rd oring fits over #14 oring holder.... It doesn't  seem to fit as flush to the surface  as the one I pulled off.... so its catching on the flange set...
https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/motorcycle/1999/gl1500c-a-valkyrie/final-driven-gear
- Then I'll need to get by the same thing for new new oring on the Flange set#8.

Just for grins to confirm I'm not crazy..(well, mbe)....
 I pulled the orings off as a test fit... (Its just a test guys)
And sure enough, it goes together like it should....


The orings seem to be a half mm too big in diameter that doesnt allow them to sit down in the groves completely.... But then again, my tag line is... half genius and half dumbazz.... mbe I'm in the latter zombie   world and not doing something that would be normal for a magic oring installation professional.  

Hubcapsc - I think you were on to something, so why do think the old flange oring rolls over and the new one doesn't?

?
I'm going back and scrape and clean the fricken living sh!t out the grooves and give it another shot.....

And the grease thing some guys have mentioned.. I havent done anything different than this youtube guy....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INHdVZ2XJNQ