Gas generator to power home when there are power outtages (Update)

[carolinarider09]

I was going to post a reply to a thread started in December of 2018 but got a warning message, so I used the same "Subject".  The link to the original thread is below.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,101043.0.html

After research and consideration of costs and returns, ease of use, and reliability, I have decided to install a whole house back up generator.

I live in a small town (within the city limits) and power is supplied by the town.  Power line maintenance is sort of hit and miss and, since I am at the end of the supply line, anything that happens upstream of me causes me to lose power.

While it does not happen often (generally two or three times a year) my wife usually gets a little upset when it happens.  So, in order to preserve peace in the house, we decided to install a backup generator.

Options were a manual start generator (preferably inverter power and runs on natural gas) or a stand alone always installed and connected generator.  

For the stand alone unit two generator types were investigated, a Generac or a Kohler.  Based on research I decided that the Kohler standalone always connected unit would be the best and most reliable choice.

The Kohler is rated at 20KW but uses a standard generator for power production  Frequency response, I have been told is very good (59.9 Hz to 60.1 Hz).  This response is contingent on a couple of things, throttle response and fuel supply.  

For fuel, Propane was an option but since I already have natural gas it was the best and most economical choice.   When I built the house I did some research on generators and requested that the natural gas supply line to the house be of sufficient size to provide natural gas for a standby generator.  The only draw back to using natural gas is that the generator's maximum available output is a little less on natural gas when compared to propane.

Also, during times when power outages are possible (hurricanes, ect), natural gas lines are "packed" by raising the pressure in the lines a little to ensure a more constant supply in the event of power outages (allows time for generators to kick in to keep the pressure up).

An automatic break before make transfer switch will be installed between the utilities power meter output and the supply to the house.  

Time frame for transfer is about three to five seconds after sensing a loss of power.  To transfer back to normal power, the switch has to sense that power has been restored for several minutes before making the switch back to normal power.

While I don't think it will be a problem, there is one issue with the installation that is a little concerning.  A load reduction device will be installed so that if a large load is started, an automatic "load shed" operation will take place.  The main device that could cause this is the HVAC system.  The reason is that when a compressor (motor) is started, the initial current surge is large (think like a short circuit because its just wire).  That does not last long (maybe a couple of seconds) but it can affect the generator's output frequency if the generator is near a given load point.  So, there will be a connection to my HVAC system to prevent it from starting at a given set up circumstances.   I have asked the installer to ensure my HVAC supplier is involved in this "operation".  

The generator is covered by a 5 year parts and labor warranty.  After five years, I will have to see what options are available for service and maintenance.  I can do my own maintenance (after all I work on my bike), but... as I get older.....

Life span for a well maintained generator is (according to the web search I did) is said to be 20 to 30 years.  Since I am now in my 70's  thats sufficient for me.

While the generator is not noisy (62 DB or so when running is what I was told but can't confirm that) it will be installed about 30 feet from the house.  This adds about 10% to the cost of the unit and installation.  But I'd rather not have it next to the foundation for several reasons.   Access and drainage are two reasons.

Cost of operation is not well known.  I have been told, when running under nominal load, the daily operational cost would be between $20 and $30.  Not confirmed.  Other costs of operation are the weekly self tests where the unit starts and runs (at idle not connected to the house or loaded) for about 20 minutes.  During this time diagnostics are run and the unit sort of checks it self out.  This adds about $5 to my normal natural gas monthly charges (not verified).

One last note, a program called Oncue Plus is available (I opted for it) that will allow remote monitoring of the unit.  Needs an internet connection which I will run from one of my internet switch to the general area.  Oncue has an app for iPhone and Android devices.  Also can run it on my laptop.  It does not add signficanlty to the cost of the unit (about 2%) so installing it is sort of a non issue cost wise.  And it will allow me to monitor the unit and sense power loss when I am not at home.  

[f6john]

I will probably do this at some point in time in the future. My previous home of 40 years it was a constant worry any time there was a storm and freezing rain was almost a guarantee of being out for a week. My next door neighbor is the head engineer for Bluegrass Energy our electrical supplier and he says it’s a very rare occurrence in our area. I guess if I get a standby generator it would probably guarantee no outages for at least 10 years

[Jess from VA]

Well Jim, that sounds like the Cadillac of generator choices and a good one.  

I looked long and hard at the Generac, but the cost (and necessary tearing out of good concrete I paid good money for) and the increasing rarity of power losses in my area, esp for any length of time, made me go with a portable (big) gas generator (with Honda engine).

So far, my choice seems a good one, as it's only been used once in three years.  And after waiting 10 hours without power, deciding it was time to fire up to save refrigerator food, I went through all the multiple steps to fuel up, drag out, startup and hookup (in the middle of the night), and the battery startup worked right away (yaay).

And just as I went to plug in to the 4-prong twist to back-power my panel, low and behold the power magically came back on.  Karma ran over my dogma, again.

We did have one earthquake here in NoVA some years ago, where I happened to have both my bikes out of the shed, sitting on side-stands, and watching them both rock and roll made me think I was back in CA again (where we had 70 of them).  That would seem to be the principle risk to a natural gas hookup, short of some kind of regional gas grid interruption.    

[Rams]

The first thing my neighbors told me when I moved to southern Mississippi was that I should consider getting a backup generator.   Being the person I am and knowing how my spousal unit is when she has to cook on the grill outside, light her way through the darkness of night with a flashlight or candle, it was not even something I had to think about.

I went out and bought a PTO driven whole house generator that runs off of my tractor.   If the power goes out, that means I'll have to hook it up and plug it in but, I ran the numbers and knowing I'll always have a tractor, it made sense.   So, now when they forecast storms headed our way, I couple it up.  Takes maybe five minutes and it's ready to plug in if needed.   The way I look at it, it was the cheapest way to keep the wife and I in a powered and peaceful situation.  

Rams

[f6john]

The first thing my neighbors told me when I moved to southern Mississippi was that I should consider getting a backup generator.   Being the person I am and knowing how my spousal unit is when she has to cook on the grill outside, light her way through the darkness of night with a flashlight or candle, it was not even something I had to think about.

I went out and bought a PTO driven whole house generator that runs off of my tractor.   If the power goes out, that means I'll have to hook it up and plug it in but, I ran the numbers and knowing I'll always have a tractor, it made sense.   So, now when they forecast storms headed our way, I couple it up.  Takes maybe five minutes and it's ready to plug in if needed.   The way I look at it, it was the cheapest way to keep the wife and I in a powered and peaceful situation.  

Rams

Your wife will cook on the grill!!! You must have started the training early and often. My wife has done it but it is clearly understood that it’s my job to grill regardless of the weather. Grilled 3 nights this week layered up and with a hoodie on and my back to the wind.

[98valk]

Great info guys. bookmarking.

[carolinarider09]

I will provide more updates as the install progresses.  Just finished getting a CAT 5 cable ready for connection.  Lucily I ran a couple of extra CAT 5 cables under the house and up to the router/switch.  

[scooperhsd]

Echo the others in that it sounds like you are going first class on backup power. Nothing wrong with that if you can afford it.

Now that you're getting it installed - I bet you don't need it for a few years

[carolinarider09]

Ahhh yes, Murphy's Law.  I like to "invoke" Murphy Law" when I can to my benefit. It will be several weeks before its installed.

Just in time for late February ice storms (and now that I have said that its another "Murphy's Law" thing.

Regarding the cost, that is an issue.  But I ride a 2003 Valkyrie and I have a 1996 Ford Explorer. And as I said, I am not getting any younger.  And yes my wife has a 2016 Subaru. 

The point is, if you might have to stay home, for whatever reasons, I'd like to enjoy it while I can. 

My other choices were as some have mentioned, and I considered all of them. 

 

[Jersey mike]

Ahhh yes, Murphy's Law.  I like to "invoke" Murphy Law" when I can to my benefit. It will be several weeks before its installed.

Just in time for late February ice storms (and now that I have said that its another "Murphy's Law" thing.

Regarding the cost, that is an issue.  But I ride a 2003 Valkyrie and I have a 1996 Ford Explorer. And as I said, I am not getting any younger.  And yes my wife has a 2016 Subaru. 

The point is, if you might have to stay home, for whatever reasons, I'd like to enjoy it while I can. 

My other choices were as some have mentioned, and I considered all of them. 

 

I’d like to ask how big is your house since you went with the 20k unit and what you plan on running or if when you calculated everything in the house ie a/c heating, appliances like washer dryer and so on, if you came in under 20k and have extra in reserve.

[Robert]

I will provide more updates as the install progresses.  Just finished getting a CAT 5 cable ready for connection.  Lucily I ran a couple of extra CAT 5 cables under the house and up to the router/switch.  

Cat 8 is the way to go, much faster cable and not that expensive either. I put it through my whole house after removing the cat 6 and I actually do notice a difference.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=31061

[MarkT]

We used to get frequent power outages so I set up a portable 7kw generator to backfeed through the panel, and installed a main breaker to get off the grid - that wasn't code when the house was built.  Murphy's Law, wouldn't you know that shortly after I spent around $1000 to set it up (Yeah I know, cheap but I had a contractor friend I bartered with, and I did most of it myself), the local Co-op power company did a lot of infrastructure work, removing trees and upgrading power terminals, and outages became rare events.  Still get 1 or 2 of them a year from storms and such but they aren't long events, usually not over 3 hours.  Meanwhile I have my sensitive equipment - computers and A/V - on UPS to protect them long enough to get them shut down.  Those UPS units also massage the power so when my generator doesn't stick closely to 60Hz, that doesn't get past them to the computers/AV.  My generator runs on gasoline so I keep a supply of pure gas on hand and in the generator, along with Seafoam to preserve the gas, and change it annually.  I run the gen semiannually and always stop it by shutting the fuel off. I have sufficient power to run everything except the compressor, the water heater, and the spa.  Can cook with electric stove, run the frig and two more freezers, the furnace, well, and all the lights I need.  Can even continue working in the shop with the welders, grinders, chop saws, band saw, belt sanders, lathe, drill press, electro-hydraulic table lift, lights etc.  Just not the compressor.

Works for me.

[scooperhsd]

I will provide more updates as the install progresses.  Just finished getting a CAT 5 cable ready for connection.  Lucily I ran a couple of extra CAT 5 cables under the house and up to the router/switch. 

Cat 8 is the way to go, much faster cable and not that expensive either. I put it through my whole house after removing the cat 6 and I actually do notice a difference.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=31061

All I got to say is "DON'T try to install UTP without a cable tester". Lordy, it's a good thing I don't do that as a money maker - I'd go broke on my inefficiency and redoing the patch panel / jack wiring over and over and... until I get right.

[carolinarider09]

Ahhh yes, Murphy's Law.  I like to "invoke" Murphy Law" when I can to my benefit. It will be several weeks before its installed.

Just in time for late February ice storms (and now that I have said that its another "Murphy's Law" thing.

Regarding the cost, that is an issue.  But I ride a 2003 Valkyrie and I have a 1996 Ford Explorer. And as I said, I am not getting any younger.  And yes my wife has a 2016 Subaru. 

The point is, if you might have to stay home, for whatever reasons, I'd like to enjoy it while I can. 

My other choices were as some have mentioned, and I considered all of them. 

 

I’d like to ask how big is your house since you went with the 20k unit and what you plan on running or if when you calculated everything in the house ie a/c heating, appliances like washer dryer and so on, if you came in under 20k and have extra in reserve.

The house is about 2,700 Sq Ft.  Normal insulation in the floors and walls but foam insulation in the ceiling (actually in between the rafters).  Since I built the house, I had it checked for air leakage (blower door test) and there is very little air leakage (after I fixed a couple of major leaks).  I could have used the "foam" insulation in the walls but the consultant I was working with regarding insulating, ect for the house said it would be an improvement but not that much.  Sealing air leakage was a prime concern.  The only problem with that is you should (which I have not done) have an outside air intake system to allow things like bathroom vent fans to actually be able to work well.  Its a concern but not major.

The HVAC system is a 3 ton unit with natural gas when the outside temp gets below 3? degrees (not sure the exact temp but if the unit thinks its less than 37 degrees it switches to natural gas for heat).  

Normal appliances washer, dryer, refrigerator, freezer, dishwasher, counter top stove and oven, all electric.
Hotwater heater is a Rinnai instant on natural gas unit.

Lighintg is mostly incandescent.  Not yet a fan of LED lighting when I wish to dim lights.  Lighting is another interesting story, I probably have too much but it works well.

Before I spoke with the selected generator installer (another story about that), I did my own calculations based on on-line sources.  My selection would/was a 20KW unit.

Kohler offers a 14KW and a 20KW unit.  While I could probably have gotten by with the 14KW unit by monitoring my appliance usage, I wanted to minimize the possibly of running the unit above 80-90% power under full load conditions.  

The price difference is about 20%.  Which is a lot but when amortized over the 10 to 20 year life of the generator, its reasonable to ensure that future requirements or load additions could be supported.  Installation cost is about the same for both units.

It is likely that future appliances will be more energy efficient but once you install the unit, its yours.  

Having said that there is something to be said for "spinning reserve".  The 20KW unit should handle the HVAC startup compressor easier thant the 14KW unit.

Fuel consumption at low load conditions is also a factor to consider.  The 14KW unit, at 50% load consumes 124 CFH (cubic feet per hour).  the 20KW unit, at a similar load consumes about 140 CFH.  Which means the 20KW is a little less efficient at low load conditions.  Idle load is 60 CFH and 71 CFH, respectively.  

Now here is the draw back, the down side (not counting the initial cost).  If power goes out for four to 8 hours, the operating cost will be somewhere in the neighborhood of $25 to $35 dollars.  If out for a full day, the operating cost could exceed  $75.  Thats a lot of money.  However, if I had to leave home, due to an extended power outage, a motel would cost at least $80 a night, not counting cost of meals ect.  Plus the house would be vacant and the security system can only run for so long on battery power.

[carolinarider09]

I will provide more updates as the install progresses.  Just finished getting a CAT 5 cable ready for connection.  Lucily I ran a couple of extra CAT 5 cables under the house and up to the router/switch. 

Cat 8 is the way to go, much faster cable and not that expensive either. I put it through my whole house after removing the cat 6 and I actually do notice a difference.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=31061

All I got to say is "DON'T try to install UTP without a cable tester". Lordy, it's a good thing I don't do that as a money maker - I'd go broke on my inefficiency and redoing the patch panel / jack wiring over and over and... until I get right.

Yes I have a UTP ( I had to look up what it meant  )  I wired the house, including coax and CAT 5/6 cables to a lot of areas.  I was not really willing to rely on WiFi for my connections to the internet, ect so I found out rather quickly a tester was needed.  Its again, a "Trust but Verify" kind of thing.  Like a live/dead check required whenever i do wiring.  You never know.

Spent some time in the US Navy (Submarine Service) and many years working in the Nuclear Power industry.  Safety is a prime consideration in both those areas. 

[Robert]

You said you were concerned about the cost of running the gen. My experience has been a good one and of  course yours may vary. We lost power for 6 days so powered up the gen and ran it 24/7. I was thinking about how much the cost was going to be and when I received the bill I opened it with one eye. I was pleasantly surprised since the bill was only about 40.00 more than usual. Dont ask my why or what happened but I didnt question it. Hope you did or are going to go with the 20k, from experience you wont be sorry. Sometimes when changing loads the gen dips and cuts power a bit and by getting the bigger gen you will have more headroom and less problems. The other thing is the gas pressure and the length of the run to think about.

 Since I dont have the ability to get under my house and the attic is a so so option, I went wireless. I bought the Orbi routers and they have been rock solid and have given a good signal throughout the house. My house is concrete construction and its terrible for WiFi but the Orbis placed in different positions through the house has made all the difference.

[scooperhsd]

My general philosophy - if it is not moving - then when possible it gets wires - more reliable and usually faster.

One thing you might want to look at if Wifi isn't working so well - the bridges you can buy that plug into the wall outlet and that pass ethernet over powerline. Even in this 1950's house , over 2 wire power - I can get 500-600 Mbps.

I haven't tried the Wifi mesh systems yet. But I have used multiple wifi routers in a house to accomplish the same thing, using wired backhauls.

[Jersey mike]

Ahhh yes, Murphy's Law.  I like to "invoke" Murphy Law" when I can to my benefit. It will be several weeks before its installed.

Just in time for late February ice storms (and now that I have said that its another "Murphy's Law" thing.

Regarding the cost, that is an issue.  But I ride a 2003 Valkyrie and I have a 1996 Ford Explorer. And as I said, I am not getting any younger.  And yes my wife has a 2016 Subaru. 

The point is, if you might have to stay home, for whatever reasons, I'd like to enjoy it while I can. 

My other choices were as some have mentioned, and I considered all of them. 

 

I’d like to ask how big is your house since you went with the 20k unit and what you plan on running or if when you calculated everything in the house ie a/c heating, appliances like washer dryer and so on, if you came in under 20k and have extra in reserve.

The house is about 2,700 Sq Ft.  Normal insulation in the floors and walls but foam insulation in the ceiling (actually in between the rafters).  Since I built the house, I had it checked for air leakage (blower door test) and there is very little air leakage (after I fixed a couple of major leaks).  I could have used the "foam" insulation in the walls but the consultant I was working with regarding insulating, ect for the house said it would be an improvement but not that much.  Sealing air leakage was a prime concern.  The only problem with that is you should (which I have not done) have an outside air intake system to allow things like bathroom vent fans to actually be able to work well.  Its a concern but not major.

The HVAC system is a 3 ton unit with natural gas when the outside temp gets below 3? degrees (not sure the exact temp but if the unit thinks its less than 37 degrees it switches to natural gas for heat).  

Normal appliances washer, dryer, refrigerator, freezer, dishwasher, counter top stove and oven, all electric.
Hotwater heater is a Rinnai instant on natural gas unit.

Lighintg is mostly incandescent.  Not yet a fan of LED lighting when I wish to dim lights.  Lighting is another interesting story, I probably have too much but it works well.

Before I spoke with the selected generator installer (another story about that), I did my own calculations based on on-line sources.  My selection would/was a 20KW unit.

Kohler offers a 14KW and a 20KW unit.  While I could probably have gotten by with the 14KW unit by monitoring my appliance usage, I wanted to minimize the possibly of running the unit above 80-90% power under full load conditions.  

The price difference is about 20%.  Which is a lot but when amortized over the 10 to 20 year life of the generator, its reasonable to ensure that future requirements or load additions could be supported.  Installation cost is about the same for both units.

It is likely that future appliances will be more energy efficient but once you install the unit, its yours.  

Having said that there is something to be said for "spinning reserve".  The 20KW unit should handle the HVAC startup compressor easier thant the 14KW unit.

Fuel consumption at low load conditions is also a factor to consider.  The 14KW unit, at 50% load consumes 124 CFH (cubic feet per hour).  the 20KW unit, at a similar load consumes about 140 CFH.  Which means the 20KW is a little less efficient at low load conditions.  Idle load is 60 CFH and 71 CFH, respectively.  

Now here is the draw back, the down side (not counting the initial cost).  If power goes out for four to 8 hours, the operating cost will be somewhere in the neighborhood of $25 to $35 dollars.  If out for a full day, the operating cost could exceed  $75.  Thats a lot of money.  However, if I had to leave home, due to an extended power outage, a motel would cost at least $80 a night, not counting cost of meals ect.  Plus the house would be vacant and the security system can only run for so long on battery power.

Thanks for the feedback I appreciate your thoughts. One of my neighbors has a older version 20kw Kohler and he has no complaints on his model so I think you’ll be happy with yours too. I asked because quite a few people in our area run the Generac Guardian models and my neighbor has been the only Kohler I’ve seen. Generac seems to be the popular brand around here. Even our natural gas supplier advertise on their trucks Generac sale and installation service.

I’m close to convincing the Mrs. it’s a necessity, we have frequent outages but they typically last short periods, the worse being Superstorm Sandy which was 9 days no power but I have a Generac 5500 gas which pulled us through that for simple stuff. We ran that on/off 1/2 a day typically and still used 5 gallons a day. We do not have a transfer switch so it was extension cords into,the house.

Well anyway thanks again, good luck.

[carolinarider09]

Jersey Mike;

Thanks for the feedback.  When I talked with the proposed installer, we discussed Generac vs Kohler.  He said Kohler hands down.  He does install both (customer is always right).

My research resulted in the same decision. 

[carolinarider09]

Update on installation -

Weather has been an issue so installaiton has been delayed.  But on Wednesday the natural gas system was upgraded.  

Gas line regulator/meter was replaced with a 2 PSI regulator (at least I believe that is what it was) and then 1.5 PSI regulator was connected to attach to the house feed.  All done outside of the house.




Then two holes were made in the curtain wall for the natural gas line that will supply the generator and the line run under the house to the location of the generator (actually will be located about 30 feet from the house.

Took about two hours to complete this part of the project.



All appliances were then tested and the HVAC Tech came out to verify the HVAC was operational at required gas pressure.  Just a back up to what the generator install guy did and verified.  

Some things I learned that I did not know before the purchase.  

1.  The generator is a V-twin air cooled motor (I sort of figured it was but just had it verified).

2.  The engine is actually made in China.  I did not find this out until I was doing some detailed research on the installation process.  Generac engines are made in the states (Wisconsin I believe).

3.  The engine holds two quarts of oil.  Oil is fully synthetic 10W-30 (5W-30 is also listed).  The engine has an oil cooler.  Oil change is annually or after 150 hours of operation.

4.  During operation, it is recommended (required ???) that you check the oil level every 8 hours of operation.  To check the oil level you have to shutdown the generator.  The "Really" here is that, by company standards, you can only run the generator for 8 hours at a time.  So every 8 hours, if you need the generator for an extended period, you will have to power down your home to check the oil

The rest of the installation should be completed sometime next week, depending on the water.

[Jess from VA]

Interesting.  My last two gas generators had (have) a low oil shutoff.  And never actually shut off from low oil, though I never needed to run them for days and days at a time.

I realize this is not helpful, but many V-twin air cooled motorcycles burn (and maybe leak) oil (among other problems).   

[carolinarider09]

Update:

Generator, transfer switch and load reject device installation was finally completed today.  Lots of rain held things up. 

Had to be without power for about two yours as the connections were made, wires re-run, and changes made to breaker box. 

Load tested satisfactory.  It is set to start every two weeks to run, unloaded, for about 10 minutes. 

The connection to the existing circuits are a bit messy but, a certain code requirement required the transfer switch to be mounted with its internal circuit breaker no more than 6' 6" off the ground. 

I was told the engine holds a little shy of four quarts of oil (not the two quarts I was lead to beleve from my re-search on the web).  Will verify with provide documents. 

[carolinarider09]

Interesting.  My last two gas generators had (have) a low oil shutoff.  And never actually shut off from low oil, though I never needed to run them for days and days at a time.

I realize this is not helpful, but many V-twin air cooled motorcycles burn (and maybe leak) oil (among other problems).   

Jess, I will check and see if this unit has such a shutoff.  The installer did not, to my memory, mention it.  It would seem rational. 

[Jess from VA]

Looking good Jim.   

I'm sure it cost more to stick the power unit away from the house, but nice to keep the noise down.

So when the generator kicks on, the main feed to the pole cuts off? 

(I have to do that manually) 

[carolinarider09]

When the main power fails, and is not present for about three seconds, the generator starts and after a five second or so delay, the power is transferred to the generator.

When main power returns for five minutes, the transfer switch changes back to main power and the generator runs a little while to cool down (depending on how long it has been running and outside temperature). 

On startup, the generator starting systems turns the unit over for about five or so seconds before it fires.  The installer asked me if I knew why and I said nope.  But after a few seconds thought I said, my guess would be to get the oil pressure up before the engine goes under load. And that is the reason.

 First time I heard it start I said to myself, "that does not look good" but its planned.

What I did not check was to see what the time frame for the swap from generator to main power. 

The relay that makes the transfer is break before make.  However, the thought that just occurred to me is how will this affect AC synchronous  motors that are still spinning when the main power comes back on at a different phase angle. 

I will have to ask.  The best way for it to work would be to have a slight delay between the time the power is actually transferred.  Its a dead bus transfer by deign and probably not an issue but I will ask anyway. 

[Jersey mike]

I’m wondering if you have any feedback after have the unit in service for a few months. Did that tropical storm that blew through recently cause the power to go out?

Here on the Jersey Shore we were out 31 hours.

I’m a step closer to doing a whole house unit. I just found out yesterday my mechanic that does the service work on our vehicles has a 20k Kohler unit at his home as well and lives in the next neighborhood over from us. He had good things to say about it and it’s been installed at his house a few years but like us this most recent storm was the longest outage since 2012, Superstorm Sandy. Most of out outages last from 45 minutes to 3-4 hours.

[98valk]

I’m wondering if you have any feedback after have the unit in service for a few months. Did that tropical storm that blew through recently cause the power to go out?

Here on the Jersey Shore we were out 31 hours.

I’m a step closer to doing a whole house unit. I just found out yesterday my mechanic that does the service work on our vehicles has a 20k Kohler unit at his home as well and lives in the next neighborhood over from us. He had good things to say about it and it’s been installed at his house a few years but like us this most recent storm was the longest outage since 2012, Superstorm Sandy. Most of out outages last from 45 minutes to 3-4 hours.

those units are very $$$$$. I will be getting this once in stock.  dual fuel. propane tanks can safely sit. unlike gas and which goes bad today.
sales tax is half at the millville/vineland store.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Westinghouse-WGen-12500-Watt-Gasoline-Propane-Portable-Generator/1001107128

[Patrick]

My Florida neighbors just told me they bought generators and expect me to install them when we get there. They had previously asked what I thought about them.

So they bought portables, wire and transfer switches. I'll put them somewhere for them and bury cables from each house over to mine and show them [ written instructions too] how to use them.

[Hook#3287]

Be careful were you install them.

That's what this was, a portable that was installed in a semi-permanent way.

This happened this past Wednesday after ISIASIS tore though.

Fire Chief thinks the gas line deteriorated from sitting outside for years.

Caught the deck on fire, then the house, before the woman living there noticed.

I went home and moved mine 10 ft more away from my house.

[Rams]

In some ways, I'm a bit envious of those with whole house automated systems but, I'm too cheap to buy a system that expensive.   I went with a PTO 10K Generator that I mount on my tractor.   No, it won't power then entire house but, I wasn't expecting it to do that.   It's for survival mode.   

Once our renovation and addition were completed, I killed the power to the house and used the manual switch to move to Tractor provided generator power.   I have a 25 foot heavy duty extension cord specifically made for this use.   So, the tractor and generator are that distance from the back of the house.   The tractor is diesel.   Realizing my location can experience hurricanes and tornadoe downed power lines, I felt this was the most cost effective way to keep the home survivable/livable until commercial power is back on.  The envy part comes in because, I actually have to couple the generator to the tractor.   Not a big deal but, I'm getting lazy in my old age. 

Rams 

[carolinarider09]

Jersey Mike,

If I had to do it again I would, without hesitation.  The price is a lot to swallow (depending on your financial status).  But, I don't have to worry about the power being out and the food in the freezer spoiling or the food in the refrigerator spoiling.

The only worry I had was the affect of big loads on the system.  Its ability to respond to the load change (say the HVAC system kicks on for one large load).  So far that has not been an issue. 

Working for an Utility for many years (at the generating station) you learn a lot about load changes and the affect they have on the voltage and frequency output of the main generator.  It is something that we keep in mind.  But the main generator for a power plant is connected to the grid and when you turn on a large load, all the units on the grid pickup the load. All slow down a little until they get more fuel to put our more energy to increase steam flow (in a fossil plant) to give the generator more power to spin.  Not a deal at all.  Unless you are trying to run an electric arc furnace and they that is different. 

But in in your home, with your single generator and no grid, you have to rely on the unit.  Mass is a key to the process.  Increase the load on the generator and it will slow down until more fuel is applied but the mass spinning does affect how quickly it slows down and how quickly it speeds back up.

That is why I purchased the 20KW unit. 

We had no power outages from the tropical storm.  So, so far this year on three outages ranging from an hour or so to two hours. 

Fuel supply is also an issue.  For the Kohler units like the one I have, there are two sources of fuel, propane and natural gas.  Propane provides more energy so the generator can produce more power on propane than natural gas. 

However, you have to have a propane tank installed and you have to consider it in your planning process (how much fuel is needed for how long and can you get a re-supply if power is out for an extended period).

With natural gas, the issue is how intake the lines remain during an event.  Most lines are underground with above ground pumping stations.  Most of these stations (I have been lead to believe) have diesel engine backup power to keep the lines full.

Also, I have been led to believe, that the natural gas suppliers anticipate potential issues and increase the line pressure during emergencies to ensure the supply is available during the event. 

The other issue with natural gas is the size of the line to your house.  I think they suggest a one inch supply line.  But, again, I could be wrong.  That is the size of my line. 

[carolinarider09]

Rams,

I did consider using my MF1250 tractor's PTO to supply a generator.  I had the panel and cable but I could never find any good information on the quality of the power out of the PTO powered generators. 

Most of the reading I did implied they were use, as one would expect, to power electric equipment, saws, and cutters that used electric power and maybe even pumps. 

[Jess from VA]

Deciding on what kind of generator to get (if at all) for your house is a balancing of cost vs need for sure.  (like many things)

I really considered one of those whole house natural gas ones like my brother has.  He's out in the sticks, and loses power all the time.

I used to lose power much more often (but not that often), and for longer periods, but not so much in the last decade.  Only lost power for multiple days twice in 28 years.  So I stayed with a big gasoline unit. 

And this last year of unforeseen expense was about 4 times normal, including an entire HVAC replacement.  And it's a lot harder to save that back up on retirement money than employment money.

Now if we do lose power for days and days in 90*+ I will be an idiot anyway.

[Jersey mike]

Jersey Mike,

If I had to do it again I would, without hesitation.  The price is a lot to swallow (depending on your financial status).  But, I don't have to worry about the power being out and the food in the freezer spoiling or the food in the refrigerator spoiling.

The only worry I had was the affect of big loads on the system.  Its ability to respond to the load change (say the HVAC system kicks on for one large load).  So far that has not been an issue. 

Working for an Utility for many years (at the generating station) you learn a lot about load changes and the affect they have on the voltage and frequency output of the main generator.  It is something that we keep in mind.  But the main generator for a power plant is connected to the grid and when you turn on a large load, all the units on the grid pickup the load. All slow down a little until they get more fuel to put our more energy to increase steam flow (in a fossil plant) to give the generator more power to spin.  Not a deal at all.  Unless you are trying to run an electric arc furnace and they that is different. 

But in in your home, with your single generator and no grid, you have to rely on the unit.  Mass is a key to the process.  Increase the load on the generator and it will slow down until more fuel is applied but the mass spinning does affect how quickly it slows down and how quickly it speeds back up.

That is why I purchased the 20KW unit. 

We had no power outages from the tropical storm.  So, so far this year on three outages ranging from an hour or so to two hours. 

Fuel supply is also an issue.  For the Kohler units like the one I have, there are two sources of fuel, propane and natural gas.  Propane provides more energy so the generator can produce more power on propane than natural gas. 

However, you have to have a propane tank installed and you have to consider it in your planning process (how much fuel is needed for how long and can you get a re-supply if power is out for an extended period).

With natural gas, the issue is how intake the lines remain during an event.  Most lines are underground with above ground pumping stations.  Most of these stations (I have been lead to believe) have diesel engine backup power to keep the lines full.

Also, I have been led to believe, that the natural gas suppliers anticipate potential issues and increase the line pressure during emergencies to ensure the supply is available during the event. 

The other issue with natural gas is the size of the line to your house.  I think they suggest a one inch supply line.  But, again, I could be wrong.  That is the size of my line. 

Thanks for all that info, it’s good stuff to keep in mind.

One more question, do you have a single phase or a 3 phase generator? The more I read the more it seems a 3 phase is the way to go. Apparently it’s a better source and “cleaner” electric...or something along those lines.

Thanks again.

[carolinarider09]

Its a three phase generator. 

https://www.norwall.com/products/Kohler-20kW-Air-Cooled-Standby-Generator-with-200-Amp-SE-Rated-ATS-20RESCL-200SELS/?ctm=B041XANR&msclkid=c8e3bb8e0a031e5c632ce4a09397f3c0&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Kohler%20Generators%20-%20Shopping&utm_term=4583108067158095&utm_content=Kohler%20Air%20Cooled

[cookiedough]

In some ways, I'm a bit envious of those with whole house automated systems but, I'm too cheap to buy a system that expensive.   I went with a PTO 10K Generator that I mount on my tractor.   No, it won't power then entire house but, I wasn't expecting it to do that.   It's for survival mode.   

Once our renovation and addition were completed, I killed the power to the house and used the manual switch to move to Tractor provided generator power.   I have a 25 foot heavy duty extension cord specifically made for this use.   So, the tractor and generator are that distance from the back of the house.   The tractor is diesel.   Realizing my location can experience hurricanes and tornadoe downed power lines, I felt this was the most cost effective way to keep the home survivable/livable until commercial power is back on.  The envy part comes in because, I actually have to couple the generator to the tractor.   Not a big deal but, I'm getting lazy in my old age. 

Rams 

what about the diesel tractor running for say 12 of the 24 hours per day.  Will the tractor be o.k. running that long for say 3-5 days or longer if need be?    best keep lots of diesel fuel around?

[cookiedough]

good investment for sure if you know the power goes out over say 8 hours or so several times per year.

Where I live no worries power has never been out for more than a few hours in over 50 years here so not worried probably a handful of times total. 

I still am too cheap if lived in those areas with power going out a few times per year to not just buy a big portable unit with longer 25 foot heavy duty cord to get me by hopefully with the basics for 1300 bucks or so.  Might get me buy for a few days until power restores.

Although that being said,  you should have heard the wife complain NO HOT water when my sensor switch/cable failed on a Friday 5 p.m. going without HOT water for 3 days until I got another 8 dollar one luckily locally at a heating contractor otherwise would have been another 4-5 days mailing time to get one online for 6 bucks plus shipping.  I am going to order 2 more of them online since cheaper with shipping that way since this switch cable sensor failed once in 8 years or so on our gas tankless water heater I suspect the new one will go out in another 5-8  years again.  For 18 bucks peace of mind just in case the unit throws the same code reading in a few years if I can remember where I put those that is in say 6 more years in my basement?

[Robert]

Voltage    120/240V Single Phase

Also the main natural line is around 50psi so there should never be a problem with supply. Natural gas appliances are stepped down to the max at 2 psi at the meter and about 7 WC at the appliance itself. The main gas supply line should be about 1/2 inch but after the meter depending on how far inch line is about right.

Keep a good eye on the oil level after running a while and make sure to change the oil at regular intervals. You do not need to use the automatic on feature on the generator and you dont have to install a automatic switch either. I did not since I don't want the thing to run and do a self check and I also don't want it to turn on at every power outage. All I have to do is flip a couple of switches and start the gen, its basically the same gen set you have.

I would disable the self check run feature since it will accumulate hours on the generator for no real good reason. My gen set I bought used from my neighbor and the hours that were on it were from one power outage of about 8 hours and the rest from the self test. The hour meter showed about 60 hours on it.

As to wiring it in, some automatic transfer switches are a lower rating than the panel you have in the house. So if you have a 200 amp panel and some transfer switches are only 100 amps so check them before you buy.  

[Bighead]

In some ways, I'm a bit envious of those with whole house automated systems but, I'm too cheap to buy a system that expensive.   I went with a PTO 10K Generator that I mount on my tractor.   No, it won't power then entire house but, I wasn't expecting it to do that.   It's for survival mode.   

Once our renovation and addition were completed, I killed the power to the house and used the manual switch to move to Tractor provided generator power.   I have a 25 foot heavy duty extension cord specifically made for this use.   So, the tractor and generator are that distance from the back of the house.   The tractor is diesel.   Realizing my location can experience hurricanes and tornadoe downed power lines, I felt this was the most cost effective way to keep the home survivable/livable until commercial power is back on.  The envy part comes in because, I actually have to couple the generator to the tractor.   Not a big deal but, I'm getting lazy in my old age. 

Rams 

what about the diesel tractor running for say 12 of the 24 hours per day.  Will the tractor be o.k. running that long for say 3-5 days or longer if need be?    best keep lots of diesel fuel around?

A diesel engine will be just fine running for however long it needs to run.

[Robert]

Diesel usually does not run at 3600 but at 1800 so the longevity is there and the fuel savings on the fuel. Not to mention it is quieter and the voltage is a bit more uniform.