ready to give up your gasoline powered vehicles?

[98valk]

https://issuesinsights.com/2020/07/16/bidens-green-new-deal-is-just-as-crazy-as-aocs/

Biden says that on his first day in office, he will develop “rigorous new fuel economy standards aimed at ensuring 100% of new sales for light- and medium-duty vehicles will be zero emissions.”

He hasn’t said exactly when he wants new cars to be all-electric, but House Democrats have already established a timetable. Their new climate change plan calls for mandating 100% “clean” vehicles by 2035.

There is that UN 2030 agenda number. Since Trump was elected the date has been moved forward.

[carolinarider09]

The funny thing is that there is no way that an electric car is a "zero emission" vehicle.  The power to charge the car comes from the grid. 

And even if the grid has solar or wind supplies, its still the "grid" and composed of fossil and nuclear. 

I had a picture somewhere (can't find it now) of an electric car charging station and in the background is the source of power for the charger, a diesel generator. 

I have no problem if you want to buy an electric car, your money your choice but they are not "zero emission" vehicles. 

[scooperhsd]

The funny thing is that there is no way that an electric car is a "zero emission" vehicle.  The power to charge the car comes from the grid. 

And even if the grid has solar or wind supplies, its still the "grid" and composed of fossil and nuclear. 

I had a picture somewhere (can't find it now) of an electric car charging station and in the background is the source of power for the charger, a diesel generator. 

I have no problem if you want to buy an electric car, your money your choice but they are not "zero emission" vehicles. 

Amen brother - you're singing to the choir on this one.

My cars ARE gas free - they use diesel instead 

[..]

The funny thing is that there is no way that an electric car is a "zero emission" vehicle.  The power to charge the car comes from the grid. 

And even if the grid has solar or wind supplies, its still the "grid" and composed of fossil and nuclear. 

I had a picture somewhere (can't find it now) of an electric car charging station and in the background is the source of power for the charger, a diesel generator. 

I have no problem if you want to buy an electric car, your money your choice but they are not "zero emission" vehicles. 

But, but, but................................oh poop I have nothing

[old2soon]

         Talked to some ding bat moon bat near my Brothers place a year or three ago and she were goin on about her electric zero emission vehicle. Looked her square in the eye and asked her-Where do the electricity come from fer yer zero emission vehicle? Talk bout deer in the headlights look!   And as the tires wear they also create rubber dust just like those on gasoline powered vehicles. Plus i believe the newer internal combustion engines may live longer than the batteries do. In my 3.8 V 6 powered 06 Pontiac i can get to my Brothers casa-540 miles one way-on only one fill up. How many recharges would i need for that same trip and how many HOURS would the charging add to the trip? 10 12 14 hours in the saddle now and i duz NOT gotta take a motel gittin there. I'd be willin to use a better more PRACTICAL system if it Ever becomes available. RIDE SAFE.

[Jess from VA]

Yeah, I'll give up my gas powered truck (and everything else) when I give up my ARs.

And that's never. 

Come get them (better come armed). 

[DirtyDan]

Get rid of gasoline..........

Good luck

Dan

[Ramie]

I read an article a few years ago that compared the amount of pollution of electric vs gas powered cars.  When you include the manufacturing process and the average lifetime of a car, the electric car caused more pollution then the gas powered vehicle.   

[Moonshot_1]

Who needs electric cars? This is how you go green.

[98valk]

we can't have that in our country

https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-death-valley-lithium-mine-california-environment-20190507-story.html


so put it over seas were we don't see it.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/01/Child-labour-behind-smart-phone-and-electric-car-batteries/

[Patrick]

Right now we have a whole lot of the cleanest burning fuel in the world. Its called natural gas. Many trucking fleets have converted from diesel to NG and have reduced their yearly costs significantly as well as the exhaust emissions.

Yet the lefties, biden , aoc and other such 'nice people' [ I didn't what this to get banned] want to do away with all fossil fuels, including the banning of fracture drilling. Just more pie in the sky thinking. Every complaint of contaminated water wells from fracking that I've read about have been debunked, the wells were proven to be contaminated before the fracking or not actually contaminated. Nothing but get rich quick schemes by landowners. [ I was called to testify on one case, I drilled the well 20 years earlier].

Fossil fuels are here and will be for quite some time. They still have their place and can now be made to burn pretty cleanly.

Green energy is not as cost effective as thought or as we are being told.

We have quite a number of both wind and solar power farms near here. They are not without problems. Solar is working out the best, but, a field/farm life expectancy is 20-25 years. [ I'll be shocked if they last that long]. Another wind generator just caught fire and blew up about a month or so ago. We heard it from 4 miles away and I looked at it the next day.

A very liberal Ivy league college here just had a solar field installed about 3 miles from its campus. DEC set up some temperature probes at varying distances and report that the surrounding temperatures have risen several degrees since it was put in use. I was one of those that asked how they knew that and they responded stating they knew the temperatures over the past 50 years at the local Agriculture Experimental Station. So at least they had readings from one constant location.

[98valk]

Right now we have a whole lot of the cleanest burning fuel in the world. Its called natural gas. Many trucking fleets have converted from diesel to NG and have reduced their yearly costs significantly as well as the exhaust emissions.

Yet the lefties, biden , aoc and other such 'nice people' [ I didn't what this to get banned] want to do away with all fossil fuels, including the banning of fracture drilling. Just more pie in the sky thinking. Every complaint of contaminated water wells from fracking that I've read about have been debunked, the wells were proven to be contaminated before the fracking or not actually contaminated. Nothing but get rich quick schemes by landowners. [ I was called to testify on one case, I drilled the well 20 years earlier].

Fossil fuels are here and will be for quite some time. They still have their place and can now be made to burn pretty cleanly.

Green energy is not as cost effective as thought or as we are being told.

We have quite a number of both wind and solar power farms near here. They are not without problems. Solar is working out the best, but, a field/farm life expectancy is 20-25 years. [ I'll be shocked if they last that long]. Another wind generator just caught fire and blew up about a month or so ago. We heard it from 4 miles away and I looked at it the next day.

A very liberal Ivy league college here just had a solar field installed about 3 miles from its campus. DEC set up some temperature probes at varying distances and report that the surrounding temperatures have risen several degrees since it was put in use. I was one of those that asked how they knew that and they responded stating they knew the temperatures over the past 50 years at the local Agriculture Experimental Station. So at least they had readings from one constant location.

UN 2030 Agenda where the democrats get their green deal from. yes democrats are UN operatives now.

Goal 7) Ensure access to affordable, reliable, sustainable and modern energy for all

Translation: Penalize coal, gas and oil while pushing doomed-to-fail "green" energy subsidies to brain-dead startups headed by friends of the White House who all go bankrupt in five years or less. The green startups make for impressive speeches and media coverage, but because these companies are led by corrupt idiots rather than capable entrepreneurs, they always go broke. (And the media hopes you don't remember all the fanfare surrounding their original launch.)
who remembers solyndra?

[Patrick]

We all [ well, most of us] remember Sylindra [sp].  How can such a company, especially after being given millions or billions of taxpayer dollars, go bankrupt so quickly !  I'm thinking someone now owns their own tropical island.

[carolinarider09]

Just in case you want some light reading. 

ROADMAP TO NOWHERE
The Myth of Powering the Nation
With Renewable Energy
          by
Mike Conley and Tim Maloney
December 2017

http://www.roadmaptonowhere.com/?fbclid=IwAR2sMccupieAnk5AI9f8tz5MkRmKtTllW0sQzHzJuiewfgPknbgBwcNHURI

[F6Dave]

The US electric grid in 2019:

Coal and natural gas:  63%
Nuclear:  20%
Hydro:  7%
Wind:  7%
Solar:  2%
Other:  1%

[Patrick]

Nuclear !  OH NO, that can't be ! We can't have no stinking nuclear plants, they blow up and radiation burn everyone turning them into mutants.


Actually I'm a big fan of properly built [ everyone now except Russia] nuclear plants. As far as I know there has not been any issue with one that was built and operated correctly.  That takes into account 3 Mile Island and the one in Japan. Chernobyl was a Russian design [ backwards] that was a problem just waiting to happen. I'm surprised it didn't blow up sooner. 3 Mile was a cheap valve and human error that supposedly has been corrected. Japan plant was built on a known fault like the one in California [ t was never built thankfully].

[F6Dave]

Since they were commercialized in 1991 Li-ion batteries have revolutionized power tools, and been a huge factor in the success of personal devices like phones.  They're great for small commuter vehicles, including motorcycles and scooters.  They work well in cars like the Tesla, but a cross country trip would be a challenge, especially in vast rural areas.  Finding charging stations can be difficult, and the time required for charging is a huge negative.

But if you think your electric car has 'zero emissions' you're just fooling yourself.  83% of the grid is natural gas, coal, or nuclear powered.  And by 2040, the Dept of Energy forecasts that will only drop to 81%.  To quote Homer Simpson, a Prius doesn't emit smog, it emits SMUG!

Here's an inescapable fact:  fossil fuels have incredible energy density.  Nuclear is even better.  As much as battery technology has improved, gasoline still has 80 TIMES the energy density of Li-ion batteries.

[Valkorado]

Unless and until we start fueling our vehicles with hydrogen,  gasoline is the best bang for the buck.

[Patrick]

Unless and until we start using hydrogen across the board, gasoline is the best bang for the buck.

As said, I tend to disagree. Gasoline has come a long way and will be around for quite some time, but, is still not as clean as natural gas. Its not hard to convert gasoline or diesel to NG. You're right about it still being the cheapest.

Hydrogen appears to be a long way off and producing it is still problematic/expensive.


Batteries have also come a long way. But, some auto batteries are still not recyclable. While electric power is nice and has come a long way, its not emission free. The electricity still has to be produced and the motors emit ozone.

[Valkorado]

I don't know why you disagree, I said gasoline is the best option until those issues are ironed out.

They have already run entire fleets on hydrogen, and have proven hydrogen in a gel form is less explosive than gasoline in a liquid form when fuel tanks were fired upon with incendiary projectiles.  It has, and can be done.  Understandably there is great resistance to an unlimited, safe and extremely powerful alternative fuel that emits nothing but water vapor from the exhaust -- resistance coming from the petroleum industry.

Roger Billings has been a pioneer in the field since the 60s.  He developed an inexpensive way to convert gasoline powered engines to burn clean hydrogen.  There are many others.  Hydrogen is the future, IMO.

[3fan4life]

I have said for years that Hydrogen is the best alternative to fossil fuels.

The problem is that hydrogen is mostly associated with the H-Bomb and the Hindenburg.

People are afraid of hydrogen.

The truth is that gasoline isn't much less dangerous.

I don't know what the process is to produce hydrogen on a commercial scale but I do remember from 8th grade science that it is very simple and easy to extract it from H2O.

[0leman]

As I see it, its not the electric vehicle that is going to be the problem, it is the grid.   More electric generation has to come from somewhere,  WHERE?   Solar and Wind plus batteries will not do the trick.  Not enough land to put them on to generate enough electricity.  Right now we would be hard pressed to build enough solar/wind sites to generate half the energy that we use today, let alone keep up with increases that will come in the next 15 or so years.   AND keep in mind it is not just the electric vehicles they are talking about,  it includes industry.

Also all the grid has to be fortified in neighborhood to allow folks to have charging stations at home, and speaking of charging stations.  They will have to be reto fitted to each home.  Wow!! talk about cost.

BUT these people  are not engineers so don't understand that electricity doesn't grow on trees.   It is just there when they turn on the lights for them.

[98valk]

I have said for years that Hydrogen is the best alternative to fossil fuels.

The problem is that hydrogen is mostly associated with the H-Bomb and the Hindenburg.

People are afraid of hydrogen.

The truth is that gasoline isn't much less dangerous.

I don't know what the process is to produce hydrogen on a commercial scale but I do remember from 8th grade science that it is very simple and easy to extract it from H2O.

need large amounts of energy to make the hydrogen.

best system is what locomotives use. low rpm high efficient diesel to run electric motors that drive the wheels.

[hubcapsc]

Right now we would be hard pressed to build enough solar/wind sites

I don't have the ability to quantify it, but the building of such infrastructure
negates a whole bunch of its "greenery" ... I like electric motors though...
that stuff will have to get a whole bunch better before those Yankees will
start wanting electric cars... people who have to go to work when it is
10 degrees and there's an inch of ice or a foot of snow on their cars
parked out on the curb need enough Oomph to defrost all that stuff
and go and return from work and maybe do a bunch more defrosting
when they're leaving work...

-Mike "and if there's enough oomph to turn on the heater in the car BONUS!"

[Valkorado]

People are afraid of hydrogen.

The truth is that gasoline isn't much less dangerous.

I don't know what the process is to produce hydrogen on a commercial scale but I do remember from 8th grade science that it is very simple and easy to extract it from H2O.

Considering the fact that it truly is non polluting as it burns kinda negates that it takes energy to produce.  All fuels take energy to produce/refine/convert/distribute.  

Hydrogen is unlimited!  It is powerful stuff.  It burns cleanly.  It has and can be done.

https://www.rogerebillings.com/hydrogen/

[gordonv]

Look on youtube. There is a lot of little homemade hydrogen generators out there. Cracking H2O to H & O is easy, separating them apart cleanly (no O in the H or it could burn/explode). Then compressing the H to run in a H engine is the part I haven't looked at closely yet.

Research the Nicola semi. Look at what they want to do, a refile station in every state. Running off of alternative energy sources (wind/solar), and store the liquid H for the vehicles. Buy Nicola and get 1M miles of fuel for free. They use a H engine and batteries, to power their individually powered electric motor wheels, about 1200 mile range.

[Jess from VA]

I want a Hydrogen bomb (or fuel tank) car.










But it would never pass inspection.  (It doesn't need lights, I only drive it during the day.)

[98valk]

BTU content determines efficiency and costs.  Hydrogen would have to be pressurized in suitable heavy tanks to carry enough for 300 mile drive.
Diesel is still the best.

The exact values will vary depending on the quality of the fuel and in some cases the pressure.
Propane   1 gallon = 91,500 BTU
1 cubic foot = 2,500 BTU
1 pound = 21,500 BTU
4.24 lbs = 1 gallon
36.39 cubic feet = 1 gallon

Natural Gas   1 cubic foot = 1,050 BTU
Gasoline   1 pound = 19,000 BTU

1 gallon = 125,000 BTU
1 gallon = 6.1 lbs
Oils   1 gallon kerosene = 135,000 BTU
1 gallon #2 oil = 138,500 BTU

1 gallon diesel = 139,200 BTU

1 gallon #6 oil = 153,200 BTU
Other Fuels (dry)   

1 lb hydrogen = 51,892 BTU with steam as product

1 lb coal (anthracite) = 12,700 BTU
1 lb coal (subituminous) = 8,800 BTU
1 lb coal (bituminous) = 11,500 BTU
1 lb pine wood bark = 9,200 BTU
1 lb hardwood bark = 8,400 BTU
1 lb wood = 7,870 BTU
1 lb dung = 7,500 BTU
1 lb waste paper = 6,500 BTU
1 lb sawdust/shavings = 3,850 BTU
1 kWH electricity = 3,413 BTU

[Patrick]

I don't know why you disagree, I said gasoline is the best option until those issues are ironed out.

They have already run entire fleets on hydrogen, and have proven hydrogen in a gel form is less explosive than gasoline in a liquid form when fuel tanks were fired upon with incendiary projectiles.  It has, and can be done.  Understandably there is great resistance to an unlimited, safe and extremely powerful alternative fuel that emits nothing but water vapor from the exhaust -- resistance coming from the petroleum industry.

Roger Billings has been a pioneer in the field since the 60s.  He developed an inexpensive way to convert gasoline powered engines to burn clean hydrogen.  There are many others.  Hydrogen is the future, IMO.

Well, I don't really disagree, only kinda disagree.  

I'm a fan of hydrogen, or will be fan when a good way of making it becomes practicable. Of the several ways its seems that the electrolysis/ water thing would be good once its really figured out. I think the first large such plant is now operating on the east coast of Japan.  Whatever they figure out, if it works as it should I'm all for it.

I just think until all this other stuff happens, gasoline will carryon and I'd like to see more natural gas being used for vehicles. I like electric for vehicles once we have better ways to make the electricity and can find a use for the old batteries. I'd also like to see more nuclear used for electricity.

[scooperhsd]

The only real problem with nuclear is what to do with the waste (and yes - I'm a big nuclear fan too).  Properly constructed plants (like the ones the USA uses) are SAFE - no China Syndrome (or Chernobol) is likely to occur.

Otherwise - it's a NIMBY problem - Not In My BackYard. But you can say that about LOTS of industrial plants.

What I think would be interesting is if you could shrink a nuclear battery enough to use on a vehicle with enough energy density to  maintain the performance we are used to for cars, light trucks , and MOTORCYCLES. Getting them to scale down to train locomotive and even Semitractors should be possible. Maybe combine these technologies - Nuclear battery creates and compresses hydrogen, which then powers the prime mover.

[carolinarider09]

The issue with the waster is two fold. 

First there is low level waste that is easily handled. 

Second is higher level waster like from resins used in the purification, cleaning process (I forget the correct name). 

Spent fuel is now being stored on site at most plants.  It can be re-processed and new fuel assemblies made but that requires the federal government to license the facility and then you are up against the anti-nuke crowd. 

But safety wise nuclear plants are safer than almost any other activity you can under take and get paid for. 

Which Industry Offers The Safest Jobs In America: Nuclear Or Logging?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2019/12/13/the-safest-and-the-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america--nuclear-and-logging/?fbclid=IwAR0MCOuFCv-yKRaGCiUEPz4og9_w8DdePhXKV5OjYQyWQzyqVlk8Pq92GoA#564e0f67455b

[f6john]

I’m a big fan of teleportation. I have solved the making things disappear, still working on making them reappear.

[98valk]

plasma arc and plasma gasification technologies are being looked into for nuclear waste.

[F6Dave]

France reprocesses their spent nuclear fuel and reuses nearly all of it. They have very little waste and nuclear fuels 80% of their grid! We passed a law in 1977 preventing reprocessing because we feared terrorists might get the stuff.

[Valkorado]

I just think until all this other stuff happens, gasoline will carryon and I'd like to see more natural gas being used for vehicles. I like electric for vehicles once we have better ways to make the electricity and can find a use for the old batteries. I'd also like to see more nuclear used for electricity.

I do agree with this.

[cookiedough]

Just buy a Delorean with a flux capacitor.   At least then we will have to go 88 mph needing 1.21 gigawatts of power.    Cold fushion using nuclear fushion is the wave of the future..     Marty MCfly and Doc would be impressed...   


The Mr. Fusion Home Energy Reactor converts household waste to power for the time machine's flux capacitor and time circuits using nuclear fusion, presumably cold fusion   

Seriously,  I am having a hard enough time to find a new vehicle nowadays since seems like over 1/2 of them have a very small engine with 1 or 2 turbos on them for power, both of which I do NOT want in my next new vehicle.  Everyone is going to small displacement higher revvving turbo equipped engines and that to me is not the wave of the future, but is here already.

A lot of cars are going HYBRID nowadays take the new 2021 hyundai sonata which has a basic still 2.5L engine similar to my 2.4L base engine on my sonata which already gets 38 avg mpg on the hwy. then to add hybrid technology onto it to achieve 52 mpg which they say is on par and actually beats a prius in terms of mpg.  Can you imagine going 900 miles per tank (50 mpg x 18 gallon gas tank)?  I can already go well over 600 miles per tank on my sonata to have 900 miles on a hybrid sonata is truly impressive in my eyes.   

[Alberta Patriot]

The biggest problem with Fossil Fuels is the people who have a problem with Fossil Fuels. They are willing to destroy millions of acres of desert landscape along with the natural habitat/beauty it holds. They are willing to kill Raptors/Bats by the thousands/millions with of their idiotic wind turbine "farms"...again destroying beautiful scenery with those 400 ft high monstrosities. Micheal Moore helped expose the bad science and corrupt individuals involved...all to conclude that humans must be depopulated. There is never a good outcome when the Left is allowed to run the narrative regarding energy...or anything else for that matter!!

I like the idea  of Hydrogen Fuel Cell Power using fossil/nuclear energy to produce it. Every city, town, village, interstate hwy has refueling facilities. Adding hydrogen pumps to this global network of filling stations certainly seems possible to me...rather than spending trillions on "renewables" that promptly declare bankruptcy once the subsidies run out.

I like the idea of a car with instant massive torque with no real need for a multi speed transmission...Tesla -like power without the 4 hour coffee break while it is being recharged...or DBAS(dead battery anxiety syndrome) that comes with being caught in a traffic jamb at 20 degrees below or 100 degrees above.

[F6Dave]

The biggest problem with Fossil Fuels is the people who have a problem with Fossil Fuels. They are willing to destroy millions of acres of desert landscape along with the natural habitat/beauty it holds. They are willing to kill Raptors/Bats by the thousands/millions with of their idiotic wind turbine "farms"...again destroying beautiful scenery with those 400 ft high monstrosities. Micheal Moore helped expose the bad science and corrupt individuals involved...all to conclude that humans must be depopulated. There is never a good outcome when the Left is allowed to run the narrative regarding energy...or anything else for that matter!!

Extremely well said!

[Patrick]

There ya go !

There are quite a few solar farms being built is this area. I mentioned the other day about our DEC reporting area temps rising.  This week 2 people have told me they have just put their homes up for sale because these 'farms' are in their back yards and look like hell and they can't stand the glare from them.  I don't think they will be cost effective, time will tell.

We also have a fair number of turbine fields in this state that have around for quite a while. They have been kind of a maintenance nightmare, another near at the cosmetics plant just lost a blade and caught fire. It was mentioned above that they kill a large number of wildlife every year. I mentioned that here a number of years ago and was called a liar  [ BS ] for it. That problem continues.

Green energy ain't really green.

Nuclear waste was being recycled and the technology kept improving, but, good ole Jimmy Carter signed a law in 1977 or 78 putting a stop to it. I never went along with the reasoning, I thought it was another of his stupid moves. Yep, other counties recycle the waste and that technology improves every year.  We are way behind other counties.

[..]

What the (enter the descriptor of your choice here) of the anti fossil fuel groups are deliberately blind to.

https://principia-scientific.org/50000-tons-of-useless-wind-turbine-blades-dumped-in-the-landfill/