rear case & clutch removal (installing reverse parts)

[Vermonter]

Hello all -

One of my long term projects is to put a sidecar (Dnepr from USSR) on my 99 Standard (19k miles)

Since I live in a place that is far from flat, I also want to install reverse, and there is confirmation that reverse can be installed, using the correct parts from a GoldWing, which apparently will basically "swap in" - as long as they are from a 1500 GoldWing that is from _after_ the start of the production of the Valkyrie (the GoldWing transmissions were beefed up to match Valk internals, and as part of that, the internal reverse parts design in the G.W. also changed)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvMOxQld_CM

This will require removing the rear case which will of course involve removing the clutch.

This is a long term project that I am working at gradually amassing both parts and know-how for. Studying manuals and online parts diagrams, reading forums (both Valk and GoldWing), watching YouTube videos on the GL1500 clutch, etc.)

From those of you who have had the rear case open - such as fixing the starter mechanism after hydrolock - what parts should I figure are 'consumable' and _need_ to be replaced? [gaskets are obvious but I am trying to get a sense of what else] What other parts are ones that would be _wise_ to replace (wear, age, etc) while I have things apart?

Also any 'tips' to use, or pitfalls to avoid, in opening things up 'this deep?'

Thanks in advance!  [PS, I know some will likely say "just get a 'Wing," call me stubborn [I am] but am 100% certain that I want a Valk with sidecar, not a Tupperware-clad rig with sidecar- and I want to retain the Valk-specific engine]

[Jersey]

When you do this, maybe you can put together a Parts List of what's needed?

[Vermonter]

When you do this, maybe you can put together a Parts List of what's needed?

In all likelihood it may be next year (I hope no longer than that) before I am in a position to put 'pedal to floor' in the actual doing of it. This relates to both amassing everything I need and having the free time to do it. But I have become comfortable that it is do-able, even though I am still working on details. And yes, I will share the "what's needed" (parts) and (schedule permitting) try to do some kind of photos, videos, and/or write-up.

[gordonv]

I've always wanted reverse too, but when I have my GW for 3 years I never used it. Always thought ahead and parked in the right places, in the right position. Except once. Someone parked beside my where I wasn't expecting it, and blocked me in, needed a push then. If I would have positioned myself when I parked, then it wouldn't have been an issue.

As for the revers, buy a complete GW GL1500 engine, better to get a whole parts bike. You need wires and a heat sink/resister, along with the cables and levers. It operates by the starter motor turning the drive shaft to back up, while the engine is running supplying electrical power.

It would be easier to swap the engines, and move some of the Valkyrie parts (heads/cams/carbs,?) to the GW engine.

Every once in a while I look into it.

Maybe add your location to your profile, might get some help (I looked to see where you are).

[Vermonter]

Thanks gordonv - just added my location - State of VT, not far from the capitol, Montpelier. 

I've got reverse in my Ural sidecar rig, and, after having it, would not want a sidecar rig, where I live, without it. Many places around here, a nose-down diagonal parking space may be the only choice. Understood that the GW reverse utilizes the starter motor. 

Re: swapping entire engines & moving-over the relevant Valk-specific parts, I guess I would not rule it out, _if_ I found a GW engine with equivalently low miles and apparent prior good care, but that seems super-unlikely. Definitely agreed on finding a whole GW engine of the right year(s) that has the reverse -- along with having all of the parts in need of harvesting, I'll have the practice of pulling the GW assemblages apart before diving into taking my Valk engine apart. I asked the guy with the Valk with the reverse videos on YouTube about the circuitry he used and he said he built his own from scratch (without any of the GW boxes), and I'm comfortable that I could do that. He apparently used the electric reverse cable actuator from a GW1800 to operate the reverse cables on his. I figure that the cable actuator linkage will be simple by comparison after doing the innards, and that I will have a better idea, by then, of how I want to set up a cable arrangement.

Wishing that I could find a discussion and some photos of the strip-down and repair that people do to replace the gears damaged by hydro-lock, as that extent of tear-down is essentially the same extent of tear-down that I will be looking at. But so far I have not come across a detailed description or photos of the tear-down to repair start geartrain damaged by hydro-lock.

[Madmike]

The starter drive has an over-running clutch and the alternator drive has some springs etc. in it both these require engine and rear cover removal to access so it may be a good time to do them or minimally close inspection and cleaning etc.  It would also be a good time for U-joint and boot as all that will be out as well.

Was there a serial # split in '98 when they integrated the beefed up trans into the Aspencade or is it applicable to the entire model year??  My '97 std has a 96 manufacture date.

[gordonv]

I was thinking with your handle of Vermonter, that you where from VT.

I finally read some of the replies to the youtube video you linked to, and saw that about figuring out his own electronics and such.

I can only suggest to document with a thread and how-to to do the job. I know I've always wanted it, just hoped I would never need it. I figured I would just swap engines, when I was ready for it.

As for parking down hill, it would be easier to back it up, down hill. Which is why I mention about thinking  before stopping. I do that all the time on slops.

I look over ebay for parts, you can sometimes see the individual items/areas/pieces of interest. You can see the side of the GW engine, and the connectors/levers.

[steveB (VRCC UK)]

I've answered a similar question like this in the past but the search doesn't seem to throw it up. I fitted the GW reverse to one of my UK models but it would work on all models. Biggest problem is fitting the GW shifter drum assembly (part no 24300-MAM-A60) to the gearbox. You need this in conjunction with the shift drum lock (part no 28250-MAM-A00) to mechanically lock the transmission in neutral. The parts fiche 'Gold Wing Gearshift Fork Diagram' shows. I used a GW rear case (part no 21111-MT2-010) and modified the Reverse Arm (part no 28230-MT2-010) and made up a sprung loaded handle. You need a GW starter motor (part no 31200-MT8-018) and it only just fits in the frame.
My electrics for this are not idiot proof, there is no speed sensor, temp sensor, clutch lock out or reverse idiot lamp. I used the reverse sender in the GW rear case to kill my lights when reverse is selected and also knock out my LED volt meter. So when I select reverse, gearbox in neutral, clutch in, I use short dabs on the starter button to pull it back.
You probably could do this without using the manual shift drum lock (which requires a crankcase split to change the shift drum) but it is the primary safety feature. Remember the reverse gear handle on a GW is not technically there to select a 'Reverse Gear' it's there to lock the transmission in gear.
 

[gordonv]

Remember the reverse gear handle on a GW is not technically there to select a 'Reverse Gear' it's there to lock the transmission in gear.

You mean in neutral?

Thank you, that is a lot more info than I've ever seen on this thread. I'm going to book mark it.

[Vermonter]

I've answered a similar question like this in the past but the search doesn't seem to throw it up. I fitted the GW reverse to one of my UK models but it would work on all models. Biggest problem is fitting the GW shifter drum assembly (part no 24300-MAM-A60) to the gearbox. You need this in conjunction with the shift drum lock (part no 28250-MAM-A00) to mechanically lock the transmission in neutral. The parts fiche 'Gold Wing Gearshift Fork Diagram' shows. I used a GW rear case (part no 21111-MT2-010) and modified the Reverse Arm (part no 28230-MT2-010) and made up a sprung loaded handle. You need a GW starter motor (part no 31200-MT8-018) and it only just fits in the frame.
My electrics for this are not idiot proof, there is no speed sensor, temp sensor, clutch lock out or reverse idiot lamp. I used the reverse sender in the GW rear case to kill my lights when reverse is selected and also knock out my LED volt meter. So when I select reverse, gearbox in neutral, clutch in, I use short dabs on the starter button to pull it back.
You probably could do this without using the manual shift drum lock (which requires a crankcase split to change the shift drum) but it is the primary safety feature. Remember the reverse gear handle on a GW is not technically there to select a 'Reverse Gear' it's there to lock the transmission in gear.
 

SteveB - thank you, that is a GOLD MINE of info. Understood that the GW starter is needed. Not too worried about achieving an interlock. I have some ideas for circuit-based approaches to interlock. I'm not interested in changing out the shifter drum, splitting the case would exceed my appetite for complexity on this project.

But for purposes of understanding how (if) this can work the way I am hoping, I am trying to understand where and how the GW's shift drum is actuated in order to be locked out by the "reverse bar" handle on the side of the GW, just because I want to make sure I am not taking one step across a ditch two steps wide by not understanding all parts of the overall mechanism (including what I hope to leave out, and whether I can leave it out). As far as I know the "reverse bar" on the side of the GW just runs the cables that actuate the "arm, reverse drum shift lock" 28230-MT2-010 and that "arm, reverse" then moves a bunch of internal parts in the vicinity of the starter motor. Is the "arm, reverse drum shift lock" 28230-MT2-010 actuated by the 'flats' on the in-board-end of the "shaft, reverse shifter" 28211-MN5-000? And if so, is the "shaft, reverse shifter" 28211-MN5-000 adequately supported and located in place against lateral front-back movement if the "arm, reverse drum shift lock" 28230-MT2-010 is completely absent? Or does the "arm, reverse drum shift lock" 28230-MT2-010 being in place play a role in maintaining the fore-aft location of the "shaft, reverse shifter" 28211-MN5-000?

Thanks VERY much for sharing your experience-based knowledge on these topics!

 

[98valk]

as said easier to swap in a '97-'00 Goldwing shortblock, will already have the reverse and 5th gear is more overdrive than the valkyrie 5th gear to the lower rpms.

[steveB (VRCC UK)]

Thanks guys, yep GordonV is right, I meant locks transmission in neutral (brainfade). Vermonter  - 98Valk is correct easiest way is to use a GW short block, over the years I've collected a lot of GW and Valk parts so this project was maybe easier than starting from scratch. Note if you use the GW cases the rubber mounts have to be pushed out and replaced with solid bushes (I machined some on my ancient lathe). Reading back through my original post I have omitted the need for all the reverse gear parts which are of course driven from the GW starter so are housed in the rear case (not the gearbox) see parts fiche Reverse Gear Diagram.
Vermonter the GW shift drum has a Gear Shift Drum Lock (part no  24305-MN5-000) which protrudes into the rear case and is engaged by the reverse mechanism. The Valks shift drum is flush with the crankcase and not tapped for the drum lock.
I never used the operating cables or original handle as they are designed to transfer operation to the outside of the GW bodywork, instead using a simple ball end alloy lever I liberated from a dockside crane we were working on at the time and spring loading it on a mounting plate. Again the GW has a lock out micro switch operated by the reverse handle but this was omitted for simplicity.
Having said all this I rarely use reverse, ten years on Harley Glides and then twenty two years on Valkyries have taught me to park facing downhill, but it is useful in gravel covered car parks, and grassy areas.

[Grandpot]

I really don't know anything about this, but I have a thought that I'll run up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes it.  Going into the transmission seems like a lot of work.   I believe I have seen somewhere that there is a reverse kit that actually drives the sidecar wheel.   Has anyone else heard of it?  It seems to be a simple solution.

[gordonv]

I have a copy of the GW GL1500 service manual, maybe even a still functional link, if someone wants it.

[Vermonter]

I have a copy of the GW GL1500 service manual, maybe even a still functional link, if someone wants it.

Thank you Gordon, I bought a 1998 GW service manual as one part of doing my homework for this - but appreciate the offer.

[Vermonter]

I really don't know anything about this, but I have a thought that I'll run up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes it.  Going into the transmission seems like a lot of work.   I believe I have seen somewhere that there is a reverse kit that actually drives the sidecar wheel.   Has anyone else heard of it?  It seems to be a simple solution.

That is a _really_ interesting thought. It's something I kicked around in my mind trying to make from scratch, because I am fairly good at scavenging, designing, and making things, but it seemed like it was going to be kludge-y, ugly, and unreliable.

But your mention got me poking around some more online and I found this - I guess in the UK it is popular for people to put electric 'caravan mover' motors on recreational trailers to make them easier at slow speed maneuvering and placement, and I guess some people have adapted those to make a reverse sidecar drive:
https://www.haulnride.com/sidecar-reverse-gear-modification-examples
some of them, in addition to having the cog-drive motor apparently have a second motor to move it into and away from the wheel tread; this one looks especially simple and stout:
https://www.purpleline.co.uk/caravan-movers/quattro-diamond

It wouldn't be as elegantly invisible as grafting a GoldWing reverse _into_ a Valk but it would be a much less elaborate undertaking and is interesting enough that I think I am going to do some checking to see if I could ever buy just a single 'caravan mover' (not the pair for a trailer) and without the trailer-oriented controls.

That's not to say I am shelving the GW reverse transplant idea, but this other idea deserves investigation- thanks for the suggestion!

[ridingron]

Here's a link from a Moto Guzzi side car reverse design.

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=106093.0

A brief follow up.

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=106253.0

[Vermonter]

.... You need a GW starter motor (part no 31200-MT8-018) and it only just fits in the frame.

Question for you, please, Steve, on the issue that the GW starter just barely fits in the frame:

With the more cramped situation with the GW starter in the Valkyrie frame, is there still room enough to be able to take the GW starter in and out with the engine in-place [if at some point the starter needs attention?]

Thanks

[98valk]

.... You need a GW starter motor (part no 31200-MT8-018) and it only just fits in the frame.

Question for you, please, Steve, on the issue that the GW starter just barely fits in the frame:

With the more cramped situation with the GW starter in the Valkyrie frame, is there still room enough to be able to take the GW starter in and out with the engine in-place [if at some point the starter needs attention?]

Thanks

I've read the starter is the same for all GL1500 engines, just the price is more for the valkyrie, like the alternator.
compare them of partszilla

[Vermonter]

I've read the starter is the same for all GL1500 engines, just the price is more for the valkyrie, like the alternator.
compare them of partszilla

Similar but not identical. The Valk starter only has a splined nose at the far outer end of the motor shaft. The GW starter has that same splined nose at the end, but also has a gear on the shaft closer to the main motor. And the housing/bearing near the drive end is different between the two starters. I've looked at multiple examples of each on eBay, enough of each to be able to be sure it isn't just seller listing errors, the one is really the one, and the other is really the other. The GW starters for the 'Interstate' GW that lacked reverse _do_ look a lot like the Valk starter, so maybe the GW Interstate (non-reverse) starter may be the same as the Valk starter.

All of which seems to indicate that the gear nearest the main motor body on the GW starter (that's not on the Valk starter) must be what drives the reverse gearing in the GW. Maybe you can use a GW starter that has the extra gear for reverse, in a Valk that lacks the reverse mechanism, and that extra gear just happily does nothing with nothing else to even possibly connect with. But the two motors are definitely different (I can't tell yet whether the external length is different, the mount pattern and diameter look identical).

I've tried to attach some photos but haven't yet got the hang of how to post photos here, the photo function here is very different than other forums I am used to posting photos on.

[steveB (VRCC UK)]

Vermonter - GW starter is significantly longer and the power pick up stud is at a different location, further around the case (clockwise) about 4 o'clock, and further towards the rear. I see no reason why you could not use a GW starter as a replacement on a Valk motor but it is a very tight squeeze. I fitted mine with the motor in place as I wanted to check that it was possible to install and remove. As I was using a secondhand starter from Pinwall this seemed prudent. My memory is letting me down again but I may have made a longer power cable as well. As for using a GW starter as a cheaper replacement it's not as simple as the alternator mod and its a real fiddle to fit.

Memory kicking in after second cup of coffee - GW and Valk starters have their bodies indexed into the nose at different positions. I wanted to revolve the body on the GW starter  to match the Valk but it's not do-able. As you correctly surmise the larger gear next to the body is reverse the small pinion is the starter. Side by side the differences are evident - should have taken foto's.

[98valk]

I've read the starter is the same for all GL1500 engines, just the price is more for the valkyrie, like the alternator.
compare them of partszilla

Similar but not identical. The Valk starter only has a splined nose at the far outer end of the motor shaft. The GW starter has that same splined nose at the end, but also has a gear on the shaft closer to the main motor. And the housing/bearing near the drive end is different between the two starters. I've looked at multiple examples of each on eBay, enough of each to be able to be sure it isn't just seller listing errors, the one is really the one, and the other is really the other. The GW starters for the 'Interstate' GW that lacked reverse _do_ look a lot like the Valk starter, so maybe the GW Interstate (non-reverse) starter may be the same as the Valk starter.

All of which seems to indicate that the gear nearest the main motor body on the GW starter (that's not on the Valk starter) must be what drives the reverse gearing in the GW. Maybe you can use a GW starter that has the extra gear for reverse, in a Valk that lacks the reverse mechanism, and that extra gear just happily does nothing with nothing else to even possibly connect with. But the two motors are definitely different (I can't tell yet whether the external length is different, the mount pattern and diameter look identical).

I've tried to attach some photos but haven't yet got the hang of how to post photos here, the photo function here is very different than other forums I am used to posting photos on.

good info.

so I wonder what starter the Japanese valkyries use since they have reverse.

[Madmike]

I've read the starter is the same for all GL1500 engines, just the price is more for the valkyrie, like the alternator.
compare them of partszilla

so I wonder what starter the Japanese valkyries use since they have reverse.

there are the Japanese bike parts fiches on this site,

I think this is for the '97 that I clicked but follow it back and you can select the year that you want.

https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-gl1500c-valkyrie-1997-v-japan-sc34-100_model50579/partslist/

This is a Honda promo site that states the Japanese Valk used the same reverse system as the SE, gives some gear ratios so they could be compared to the non-reverse bikes and the SE to see how that compares.

https://global.honda/newsroom/worldnews/1998/2981013.html

[Vermonter]

there are the Japanese bike parts fiches on this site,

I think this is for the '97 that I clicked but follow it back and you can select the year that you want.

https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-gl1500c-valkyrie-1997-v-japan-sc34-100_model50579/partslist/

Fantastic, thank you, that does indeed let me navigate to the Japan-market '99 Touring parts diagrams