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Author Topic: The President's Taxes  (Read 4058 times)
98valk
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South Jersey


« Reply #80 on: September 28, 2020, 02:11:48 PM »

As a practicing CPA and having taught in a top rated undergraduate program for twenty years I can tell you quite a bit about the American tax system.
Real estate investing is one of the most tax advantaged investments that can be made.   Taxes due have very little to do with free cash flow from the investments.  It is very easy to show tax losses with depreciation and other non-cash expenses that are reported.  I have seen many real estate partnerships with billion dollar free cash flows that can still show a net investment loss for income tax purposes.  What you haven't seen, and probably wouldn't believe anyway, is how these are more tax deferments that non-taxable transactions. When/if these properties are sold the tax tax bill will be Huge (in your words) in capital gains taxes.  If they are never sold, the cash flow will become taxable on an ongoing basis as only the cost basis can be used to offset the income.  Once that basis is written off the income becomes taxable.  It is a win/win in the long run.  Without the tax incentives, most businesspeople would not take the risk of billion dollar investments.  If they are not built they would pay any taxes at all.  Just ask AOC about who ended up writing that 5 billion dollar check that Amazon was going to pay over the next ten years for the complex that they didn't build in NYC.

If you are going to complain that this is an unfair advantage, make that complaint to congress as they are the ones who write the laws that these returns were filed under.  Learn the system before you bitch about someone using it as it was written.



Exactly!, but u know facts mean nothing to the people on the left.
 If President Trump didn't sign his name 100% exactly one day like he did the day before they will call him a liar.
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1973 Duster 340 4-speed rare A/C, 2001 F250 4x4 7.3L, 6sp

"Our Constitution was made only for a Moral and Religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the goverment of any other."
John Adams 10/11/1798
Jess from VA
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No VA


« Reply #81 on: September 28, 2020, 02:16:32 PM »

And courtesy does not trump privacy (and intelligence).

If half the free world (and all the unfree world) hated you and targeted you in everything you do and say, every single day of your public life, would you voluntarily give them your (billionaire) tax returns to go on a witch-hunting fishing-expedition with as a matter of courtesy?

Not unless you're a fool and an idiot.  (and he is neither)

And I bet any good CPA or tax attorney would advise him against disclosure too (even if they prepared them for him and guaranteed they were perfectly spotless).

And men of good character like George Soros or Mikey Bloomberg with giant piles of their own money to burn in the cause of world socialism, could probably use that information as a way to attack him financially and personally.

So unless you've got a bulletproof subpoena or court order, you can go whistle Dixie (or pee off the high side of the boat).

« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 02:25:41 PM by Jess from VA » Logged
The emperor has no clothes
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« Reply #82 on: September 28, 2020, 04:07:16 PM »



As much as you may hate him, we hate you (and everything you stand for) more.



Wow ! A little presumptuous, isn't it ? Maybe you should post up a "Who hates Alien poll"
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98valk
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South Jersey


« Reply #83 on: September 28, 2020, 04:27:05 PM »



As much as you may hate him, we hate you (and everything you stand for) more.



Wow ! A little presumptuous, isn't it ? Maybe you should post up a "Who hates Alien poll"

https://davidharrisjr.com/steven/joe-biden-uses-a-series-of-loopholes-to-dodge-hundreds-of-thousands-in-taxes/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook
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1998 Std/Tourer, 2007 DR200SE, 1981 CB900C  10speed
1973 Duster 340 4-speed rare A/C, 2001 F250 4x4 7.3L, 6sp

"Our Constitution was made only for a Moral and Religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the goverment of any other."
John Adams 10/11/1798
Jess from VA
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No VA


« Reply #84 on: September 28, 2020, 05:07:36 PM »


As much as you may hate him, we hate you (and everything you stand for) more.

Wow ! A little presumptuous, isn't it ? Maybe you should post up a "Who hates Alien poll"

That was a statement in the collective, not the individual.



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Robert
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Posts: 17000


S Florida


« Reply #85 on: September 28, 2020, 06:23:17 PM »

And courtesy does not trump privacy (and intelligence).

If half the free world (and all the unfree world) hated you and targeted you in everything you do and say, every single day of your public life, would you voluntarily give them your (billionaire) tax returns to go on a witch-hunting fishing-expedition with as a matter of courtesy?

Not unless you're a fool and an idiot.  (and he is neither)

And I bet any good CPA or tax attorney would advise him against disclosure too (even if they prepared them for him and guaranteed they were perfectly spotless).

And men of good character like George Soros or Mikey Bloomberg with giant piles of their own money to burn in the cause of world socialism, could probably use that information as a way to attack him financially and personally.

So unless you've got a bulletproof subpoena or court order, you can go whistle Dixie (or pee off the high side of the boat).



Very true but lost on some here. I can only say wait and we may see some information revealed about some they care about revealed and then we will see what they say.

When your in the battle its not a good time for a rectal exam.  Cool But isn't that exactly what they want to do.

I am interested since it shows the battle between two major forces with power on both sides. Kind of like that one Star Trek with Kahn, " To the last I will grapple with thee"

https://youtu.be/eeanI9k-sQQ?t=178

Khan's Last Breath - Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan
https://youtu.be/xrUEjpHbUMM

A great representation of what Trump is going through with the Dems and deep state.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 06:34:20 PM by Robert » Logged

“Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don’t have time for all that.”
Robert
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S Florida


« Reply #86 on: September 28, 2020, 06:51:07 PM »

Since the left is now in histrionics over President Trump's perfectly legal use of the US tax code to avoid paying taxes, perhaps they'll give as much attention to Joe Biden - who used another perfectly legal tax 'loophole' to avoid approximately $500,000 in payroll taxes on $15 million in income.  coolsmiley coolsmiley Shocked
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“Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don’t have time for all that.”
Patrick
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Largo Florida


« Reply #87 on: September 29, 2020, 04:05:13 AM »

Oh I doubt uncle joe will get any such attention. 
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Alien
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« Reply #88 on: September 29, 2020, 05:08:43 AM »

That much debt (much of it personally guaranteed) and most of it coming due in the next 4 years makes him pretty vulnerable to being leveraged by foreign interests.  But, of course, that shouldn't worry anyone at all.
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Patrick
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Largo Florida


« Reply #89 on: September 29, 2020, 05:13:46 AM »

That much debt (much of it personally guaranteed) and most of it coming due in the next 4 years makes him pretty vulnerable to being leveraged by foreign interests.  But, of course, that shouldn't worry anyone at all.






I'm sure ole joe knows all about leverage and foreign interests. He has made a career of using it to his and his families advantage.
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Rams
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Covington, TN


« Reply #90 on: September 29, 2020, 05:17:42 AM »

And courtesy does not trump privacy (and intelligence).

And I bet any good CPA or tax attorney would advise him against disclosure too (even if they prepared them for him and guaranteed they were perfectly spotless).

So unless you've got a bulletproof subpoena or court order, you can go whistle Dixie (or pee off the high side of the boat).

I did a little research, please verify I got this right:

IF anything that the NYT has said is actually truthful and based on the President's actual tax returns, then someone at the IRS has criminally disclosed personal and confidential tax information.

IF that is what happened, I hope that the perpetrator is found, prosecuted and goes to federal prison for a long time.

26 U.S. Code § 7213

(a) Returns and return information
(1) Federal employees and other persons

It shall be unlawful for any officer or employee of the United States or any person described in section 6103(n) (or an officer or employee of any such person), or any former officer or employee, willfully to disclose to any person, except as authorized in this title, any return or return information (as defined in section 6103(b)). Any violation of this paragraph shall be a felony punishable upon conviction by a fine in any amount not exceeding $5,000, or imprisonment of not more than 5 years, or both, together with the costs of prosecution, and if such offense is committed by any officer or employee of the United States, he shall, in addition to any other punishment, be dismissed from office or discharged from employment upon conviction for such offense
.

I know that if my own tax returns were released (without my permission) as it appears President Trump's may have been, I'd be pissed.

Rams
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 05:19:55 AM by Rams » Logged

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Alien
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Earth


« Reply #91 on: September 29, 2020, 05:20:32 AM »

And courtesy does not trump privacy (and intelligence).

And I bet any good CPA or tax attorney would advise him against disclosure too (even if they prepared them for him and guaranteed they were perfectly spotless).

So unless you've got a bulletproof subpoena or court order, you can go whistle Dixie (or pee off the high side of the boat).

I did a little research, please verify I got this right:

IF anything that the New York Slimes has said is actually truthful and based on the President's actual tax returns, then someone at the IRS has criminally disclosed personal and confidential tax information.

IF that is what happened, I hope that the perpetrator is found, prosecuted and goes to federal prison for a long time.

26 U.S. Code § 7213

(a) Returns and return information
(1) Federal employees and other persons

It shall be unlawful for any officer or employee of the United States or any person described in section 6103(n) (or an officer or employee of any such person), or any former officer or employee, willfully to disclose to any person, except as authorized in this title, any return or return information (as defined in section 6103(b)). Any violation of this paragraph shall be a felony punishable upon conviction by a fine in any amount not exceeding $5,000, or imprisonment of not more than 5 years, or both, together with the costs of prosecution, and if such offense is committed by any officer or employee of the United States, he shall, in addition to any other punishment, be dismissed from office or discharged from employment upon conviction for such offense
.

I know that if my own tax returns were released (without my permission) as it appears President Trump's may have been, I'd be pissed.

Rams

Yes, I think you're right about that.  It's absolutely criminal and I can't think of any other way it could have been obtained.
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Patrick
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VRCC 4474

Largo Florida


« Reply #92 on: September 29, 2020, 05:28:55 AM »

It would nice if the leaker was found and prosecuted, but, I'm not gonna hold my breath.
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Jersey mike
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Posts: 10392

Brick,NJ


« Reply #93 on: September 29, 2020, 06:14:22 AM »

And courtesy does not trump privacy (and intelligence).

And I bet any good CPA or tax attorney would advise him against disclosure too (even if they prepared them for him and guaranteed they were perfectly spotless).

So unless you've got a bulletproof subpoena or court order, you can go whistle Dixie (or pee off the high side of the boat).

I did a little research, please verify I got this right:

IF anything that the NYT has said is actually truthful and based on the President's actual tax returns, then someone at the IRS has criminally disclosed personal and confidential tax information.

IF that is what happened, I hope that the perpetrator is found, prosecuted and goes to federal prison for a long time.

26 U.S. Code § 7213

(a) Returns and return information
(1) Federal employees and other persons

It shall be unlawful for any officer or employee of the United States or any person described in section 6103(n) (or an officer or employee of any such person), or any former officer or employee, willfully to disclose to any person, except as authorized in this title, any return or return information (as defined in section 6103(b)). Any violation of this paragraph shall be a felony punishable upon conviction by a fine in any amount not exceeding $5,000, or imprisonment of not more than 5 years, or both, together with the costs of prosecution, and if such offense is committed by any officer or employee of the United States, he shall, in addition to any other punishment, be dismissed from office or discharged from employment upon conviction for such offense
.

I know that if my own tax returns were released (without my permission) as it appears President Trump's may have been, I'd be pissed.

Rams

This is the 2nd time the NYTimes has released tax info in The President. The last time was 2(?) years ago and it was as this one is...all sour grapes because The President has an excellent tax team. He plays by the rules set forth by those who create the tax code and laws.



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Alien
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Ride Safe, Be Kind

Earth


« Reply #94 on: September 29, 2020, 06:16:35 AM »

And courtesy does not trump privacy (and intelligence).

And I bet any good CPA or tax attorney would advise him against disclosure too (even if they prepared them for him and guaranteed they were perfectly spotless).

So unless you've got a bulletproof subpoena or court order, you can go whistle Dixie (or pee off the high side of the boat).

Not exactly by the rules.  Ivanka was paid as an employee and also was paid 750,000 as a consultant. 

I did a little research, please verify I got this right:

IF anything that the NYT has said is actually truthful and based on the President's actual tax returns, then someone at the IRS has criminally disclosed personal and confidential tax information.

IF that is what happened, I hope that the perpetrator is found, prosecuted and goes to federal prison for a long time.

26 U.S. Code § 7213

(a) Returns and return information
(1) Federal employees and other persons

It shall be unlawful for any officer or employee of the United States or any person described in section 6103(n) (or an officer or employee of any such person), or any former officer or employee, willfully to disclose to any person, except as authorized in this title, any return or return information (as defined in section 6103(b)). Any violation of this paragraph shall be a felony punishable upon conviction by a fine in any amount not exceeding $5,000, or imprisonment of not more than 5 years, or both, together with the costs of prosecution, and if such offense is committed by any officer or employee of the United States, he shall, in addition to any other punishment, be dismissed from office or discharged from employment upon conviction for such offense
.

I know that if my own tax returns were released (without my permission) as it appears President Trump's may have been, I'd be pissed.

Rams

This is the 2nd time the NYTimes has released tax info in The President. The last time was 2(?) years ago and it was as this one is...all sour grapes because The President has an excellent tax team. He plays by the rules set forth by those who create the tax code and laws.




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Rams
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So many colors to choose from yet so few stand out

Covington, TN


« Reply #95 on: September 29, 2020, 06:24:35 AM »

And courtesy does not trump privacy (and intelligence).

And I bet any good CPA or tax attorney would advise him against disclosure too (even if they prepared them for him and guaranteed they were perfectly spotless).

So unless you've got a bulletproof subpoena or court order, you can go whistle Dixie (or pee off the high side of the boat).

I did a little research, please verify I got this right:

IF anything that the NYT has said is actually truthful and based on the President's actual tax returns, then someone at the IRS has criminally disclosed personal and confidential tax information.

IF that is what happened, I hope that the perpetrator is found, prosecuted and goes to federal prison for a long time.

26 U.S. Code § 7213

(a) Returns and return information
(1) Federal employees and other persons

It shall be unlawful for any officer or employee of the United States or any person described in section 6103(n) (or an officer or employee of any such person), or any former officer or employee, willfully to disclose to any person, except as authorized in this title, any return or return information (as defined in section 6103(b)). Any violation of this paragraph shall be a felony punishable upon conviction by a fine in any amount not exceeding $5,000, or imprisonment of not more than 5 years, or both, together with the costs of prosecution, and if such offense is committed by any officer or employee of the United States, he shall, in addition to any other punishment, be dismissed from office or discharged from employment upon conviction for such offense
.

I know that if my own tax returns were released (without my permission) as it appears President Trump's may have been, I'd be pissed.

Rams

This is the 2nd time the NYTimes has released tax info in The President. The last time was 2(?) years ago and it was as this one is...all sour grapes because The President has an excellent tax team. He plays by the rules set forth by those who create the tax code and laws.

I believe the President's tax team does everything it can (legally) to reduce DJT Enterprise tax burden.   Should they have knowingly committed some kind of tax fraud, I'll be first in line to condemn.   I don't care who you are, everyone should pay the taxes the tax code requires of them and everyone also has the right and responsibility to pay as little as the tax laws allow.  

If you don't like the tax laws, blame Congress, not the folks who enforce or use those laws to their advantage.   IF Biden can do it, why can't Trump?

I sincerely hope the DOJ is investigating and learns who may have released any personal tax information if, the NYT actually has such credible information.   So far, I've seen no proof they actually have that information.   But, it does seem the accusation is sufficient to convict by some folks, who needs proof, even if all of it was legal......

Rams
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 06:26:28 AM by Rams » Logged

VRCC# 29981
Learning the majority of life's lessons the hard way.

Every trip is an adventure, enjoy it while it lasts.
Alien
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Earth


« Reply #96 on: September 29, 2020, 06:39:20 AM »

Then there is the matter of "consulting fees" regarding Ivanka.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/28/politics/ivanka-trump-donald-trump-tacves/index.html
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Rams
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So many colors to choose from yet so few stand out

Covington, TN


« Reply #97 on: September 29, 2020, 06:49:42 AM »

Then there is the matter of "consulting fees" regarding Ivanka.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/28/politics/ivanka-trump-donald-trump-tacves/index.html

It would appear the same "confidential" issues may be here.

Quote
"The 'consultants' are not identified in the tax records. But evidence of this arrangement was gleaned by comparing the confidential tax records to the financial disclosures Ivanka Trump filed when she joined the White House staff in 2017. Ms. Trump reported receiving payments from a consulting company she co-owned, totaling $747,622, that exactly matched consulting fees claimed as tax deductions by the Trump Organization for hotel projects in Vancouver and Hawaii.

I guess we can over look the confidential part in that it pertains to a "hated" enemy of the left.

I honestly don't know if such a maneuver is legal or not, I would assume the professional tax team that did the taxes knows and I also assume the IRS would not have allowed it had it been illegal.   I'm not about to suggest I like the tax laws we have in place but, don't blame the folks who hire good tax consultants, blame those who passed the freaking laws.

Rams
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 06:53:16 AM by Rams » Logged

VRCC# 29981
Learning the majority of life's lessons the hard way.

Every trip is an adventure, enjoy it while it lasts.
Alien
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Posts: 1382


Ride Safe, Be Kind

Earth


« Reply #98 on: September 29, 2020, 06:52:53 AM »

Then there is the matter of "consulting fees" regarding Ivanka.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/28/politics/ivanka-trump-donald-trump-tacves/index.html

It would appear the same "confidential" issues may be here.

Quote
"The 'consultants' are not identified in the tax records. But evidence of this arrangement was gleaned by comparing the confidential tax records to the financial disclosures Ivanka Trump filed when she joined the White House staff in 2017. Ms. Trump reported receiving payments from a consulting company she co-owned, totaling $747,622, that exactly matched consulting fees claimed as tax deductions by the Trump Organization for hotel projects in Vancouver and Hawaii.

I guess we can over look the confidential part in that it pertains to a "hated" enemy of the left.

Rams

I agree with you as to the illegality of how the information was obtained but there it is...
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Rams
Member
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Posts: 16255


So many colors to choose from yet so few stand out

Covington, TN


« Reply #99 on: September 29, 2020, 06:54:15 AM »

Then there is the matter of "consulting fees" regarding Ivanka.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/28/politics/ivanka-trump-donald-trump-tacves/index.html

It would appear the same "confidential" issues may be here.

Quote
"The 'consultants' are not identified in the tax records. But evidence of this arrangement was gleaned by comparing the confidential tax records to the financial disclosures Ivanka Trump filed when she joined the White House staff in 2017. Ms. Trump reported receiving payments from a consulting company she co-owned, totaling $747,622, that exactly matched consulting fees claimed as tax deductions by the Trump Organization for hotel projects in Vancouver and Hawaii.

I guess we can over look the confidential part in that it pertains to a "hated" enemy of the left.

Rams

I agree with you as to the illegality of how the information was obtained but there it is...

Please see my edited response above.

Rams
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VRCC# 29981
Learning the majority of life's lessons the hard way.

Every trip is an adventure, enjoy it while it lasts.
signart
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Crossville, Tennessee


« Reply #100 on: September 29, 2020, 07:06:21 AM »

That's all folks!

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RDAbull
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SW Ohio


« Reply #101 on: September 29, 2020, 07:23:19 AM »

That much debt (much of it personally guaranteed) and most of it coming due in the next 4 years makes him pretty vulnerable to being leveraged by foreign interests.  But, of course, that shouldn't worry anyone at all.

The loans are backed up by the value of real estate.  It is not at all uncommon for banks to require personal guarantees for loans to any form of business.  He will be able to refinance the new loans, and probably at considerably lower interest rates when the time comes. 
I have clients who have refinances two or three times in the last two years.  There is an ample amount of money available to anybody who has assets to borrow against.
There is no back street loansharking going on here, find a new problem to rant about.
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2015 GoldWing Trike
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..
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Maggie Valley, NC


« Reply #102 on: September 29, 2020, 07:54:43 AM »

Make of this what you will.

https://www.westernjournal.com/dick-morris-trump-not-avoid-taxes-prepaid/?fbclid=IwAR2U3C7WnjIqZTihU3rGiM9JEZ5zTeyrUbPx9YuoeS-gAo1WLcwxMfKs8sU
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The emperor has no clothes
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Posts: 29945


« Reply #103 on: September 29, 2020, 08:01:08 AM »

That much debt (much of it personally guaranteed) and most of it coming due in the next 4 years makes him pretty vulnerable to being leveraged by foreign interests.  But, of course, that shouldn't worry anyone at all.

The loans are backed up by the value of real estate.  It is not at all uncommon for banks to require personal guarantees for loans to any form of business.  He will be able to refinance the new loans, and probably at considerably lower interest rates when the time comes. 
I have clients who have refinances two or three times in the last two years.  There is an ample amount of money available to anybody who has assets to borrow against.
There is no back street loansharking going on here, find a new problem to rant about.
Roger, there may be no back street loansharking going on (we don't even know about that though), but can you see how it matters who he owes the money to ? $ 421,000,000 is a lot of money, with a lot of leverage.
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..
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Maggie Valley, NC


« Reply #104 on: September 29, 2020, 08:01:29 AM »

Then there is the matter of "consulting fees" regarding Ivanka.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/28/politics/ivanka-trump-donald-trump-tacves/index.html

Well boo hoo she may have been handsomely paid for whatever she did.

she appears to have been treated as a consultant

 Ivanka Trump appears to have double-dipped

 Ivanka Trump's apparent categorization

Given the apparent payment to Ivanka Trump

she seems to have made in consulting fees


A lot of supposition going on.

Some read and see facts. Ho hum.
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..
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Maggie Valley, NC


« Reply #105 on: September 29, 2020, 08:03:38 AM »

That much debt (much of it personally guaranteed) and most of it coming due in the next 4 years makes him pretty vulnerable to being leveraged by foreign interests.  But, of course, that shouldn't worry anyone at all.

The loans are backed up by the value of real estate.  It is not at all uncommon for banks to require personal guarantees for loans to any form of business.  He will be able to refinance the new loans, and probably at considerably lower interest rates when the time comes. 
I have clients who have refinances two or three times in the last two years.  There is an ample amount of money available to anybody who has assets to borrow against.
There is no back street loansharking going on here, find a new problem to rant about.
Roger, there may be no back street loansharking going on (we don't even know about that though), but can you see how it matters who he owes the money to ? $ 421,000,000 is a lot of money, with a lot of leverage.

I missed something.

I'd like to see the facts about Trump PERSONALLY owing that amount of $$$$$
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98valk
Member
*****
Posts: 13484


South Jersey


« Reply #106 on: September 29, 2020, 08:15:55 AM »



was just going to post that

"Over the longer term, Trump overpaid his taxes by $72 million.

Because some of that overpayment was more than two years earlier, he was not allowed to offset it against current taxes. But Obama changed the law to allow taxpayers to go further back and he offset his tax liability in future years by citing his overpayment.

So Donald Trump did not avoid paying taxes, he prepaid them."
https://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/989227?section=morris&keywords=refund-withheld-paychecks&year=2020&month=09&date=28&id=989227&oref=m.facebook.com
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1998 Std/Tourer, 2007 DR200SE, 1981 CB900C  10speed
1973 Duster 340 4-speed rare A/C, 2001 F250 4x4 7.3L, 6sp

"Our Constitution was made only for a Moral and Religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the goverment of any other."
John Adams 10/11/1798
RDAbull
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Posts: 1460


SW Ohio


« Reply #107 on: September 29, 2020, 08:38:00 AM »

That much debt (much of it personally guaranteed) and most of it coming due in the next 4 years makes him pretty vulnerable to being leveraged by foreign interests.  But, of course, that shouldn't worry anyone at all.

The loans are backed up by the value of real estate.  It is not at all uncommon for banks to require personal guarantees for loans to any form of business.  He will be able to refinance the new loans, and probably at considerably lower interest rates when the time comes. 
I have clients who have refinances two or three times in the last two years.  There is an ample amount of money available to anybody who has assets to borrow against.
There is no back street loansharking going on here, find a new problem to rant about.
Roger, there may be no back street loansharking going on (we don't even know about that though), but can you see how it matters who he owes the money to ? $ 421,000,000 is a lot of money, with a lot of leverage.

Rob,  In a world where all things are relative, that's not a lot of money.  The NYT is trying to make everything look as bad as possible for the POTUS.  They tell you how much he owes but they fail to mention that he has a billion dollars in assets plus the cash flow from those assets backing up all of the loans.  I have leveraged real estate transactions up to 90% and come out on the positive side every single time.  Leverage is not a bad thing, it is just a tool in investing.  Don't take it for more or less than it is.  Last of all: don't believe everything that you read, most of it is going to be slanted to whatever side the writer is representing.
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« Reply #108 on: September 29, 2020, 09:00:04 AM »

That much debt (much of it personally guaranteed) and most of it coming due in the next 4 years makes him pretty vulnerable to being leveraged by foreign interests.  But, of course, that shouldn't worry anyone at all.

The loans are backed up by the value of real estate.  It is not at all uncommon for banks to require personal guarantees for loans to any form of business.  He will be able to refinance the new loans, and probably at considerably lower interest rates when the time comes.  
I have clients who have refinances two or three times in the last two years.  There is an ample amount of money available to anybody who has assets to borrow against.
There is no back street loansharking going on here, find a new problem to rant about.
Roger, there may be no back street loansharking going on (we don't even know about that though), but can you see how it matters who he owes the money to ? $ 421,000,000 is a lot of money, with a lot of leverage.

Rob,  In a world where all things are relative, that's not a lot of money.  The NYT is trying to make everything look as bad as possible for the POTUS.  They tell you how much he owes but they fail to mention that he has a billion dollars in assets plus the cash flow from those assets backing up all of the loans.  I have leveraged real estate transactions up to 90% and come out on the positive side every single time.  Leverage is not a bad thing, it is just a tool in investing.  Don't take it for more or less than it is.  Last of all: don't believe everything that you read, most of it is going to be slanted to whatever side the writer is representing.

Doing a bit of research and asking a few questions, I got referred to this blog.   I copied one person's response.   To me, he hit the nail on the head.

Quote
....this morning my feed is filled with people who don’t know **** about taxes retweeting the stupid opinions of other morons who also don’t know **** about taxes. This is just as annoying as last week when these same idiots all suddenly became Constitutional Scholars. Or the month before that when they were all experts on use of force laws and police tactics. Or the month before that when they suddenly got their epidemiology degrees from the University of Internet and turned into infectious disease experts.

Holy **** , you Dunning-Krugerands are annoying. Of course the comments are all about the “morality” of paying your “fair share”. Which isn’t how any of this works in real life. Just stop it with your vapid hot takes already. You clearly have a child-like grasp of a complex topic, and your words are making America dumber.

As a former accountant, please allow me to explain why all of today’s newly formed tax experts are ****ing morons, and we should metaphorically put a brick in a sock and beat them over the head with it until they shut up.

I’m going to keep this blog post simple. I’m not going to get into any of the specifics of the leaked Trump taxes. Why? Because:

We don’t know how full of **** the NYT is, and you don’t do taxes based on rumors and innuendo. You do taxes based upon financial statements and the company’s books.
This **** is super complicated and my happy ass is retired and likes getting paid more money to write books instead of reading through thousands of pages of IRS regs.
So big picture time…

First off, “morality” doesn’t have jack **** to do with taxation. You pay what you legally owe. Nobody willingly pays the government more than they legally owe.

This has always been this way since America has had income taxes. There is endless court precedent. You pay what you legally owe. That’s it. If you pay less than you legally owe, then the government will fine or imprison you. If you pay more than you legal owe, the government will laugh and laugh, because you are an idiot, and you deserve to be poor.

Every single person who barks about how somebody else should be paying more? They themselves are paying the minimum they can get away with. As they should. As should you.

I remember when I was taking my first tax class back in college. This class was all accounting majors by this point. At the beginning of the semester the professor (who’d had a long career as a tax guy) gave us an imaginary family as our clients and had us do their taxes. One kid didn’t take advantage of all the obvious deductions for his clients. When the professor asked why, the kid said some mushy thing about how he didn’t think it was FAIR to keep that money from the government… Holy **** . The professor ripped this kid a new ******* . HOW DARE YOU!?! IT IS NOT THE GOVERNMENT’S MONEY! IT IS YOUR CLIENT’S MONEY. YOU OWE THEM YOUR BEST! IT IS YOUR SACRED DUTY TO SAVE THEIR MONEY! YOU DISGUST ME AND YOU SHOULD NEVER BE A CPA!

That class was one of my favorites.

Basically, you pay what you owe, no more, and anyone who claims otherwise is full of **** .

Second, “loopholes” is a term most often used by people who don’t understand accounting or tax law, to complain about how somebody else used the existing laws created by congress to pay less than what that person thinks is “fair.” Regular people have heard the bullshit term loopholes tossed around so much that they start to believe that it is some magical easy button that rich guys can just push that makes it so they don’t have to pay taxes.

Nope. They’re just laws. These “loopholes” exist because at some point in time congress (both democrat and republican both!) decided that they wanted to promote some type of behavior or discourage some other behavior. So they basically put a reward into the law saying if you do this thing we like, you’ll pay less taxes! Or the opposite, congress wanted to discourage some behavior, so if you do that thing we don’t want, it will cost you more.

Both sides have done this forever, state and federal. We want you to drive electric cars so if you buy an electric car you get a tax break this year. YAY! Uh oh, we want you to stimulate the economy by buying this kind of machinery faster, so you have to depreciate your assets this other way or you’ll pay more! BOO! You get a discount for paying your employees health insurance, YAY! Oh, wait… Not that kind of health insurance. BOO!.

So on and so forth, up and down, these perks come and go, all based upon whatever behavior congress is trying to promote at that time (or what favors they are doing for their friends). Why was mortgage interest deductible? Because at one point congress said “we really want people to own houses!” Even regular people have things that are considered “loopholes” to somebody.

So when the blue check mark journalism major (who probably dropped out of PoliSci because “there’s too much math”) declares that it is immoral that some rich dude didn’t pay his fair share because he used loopholes, those are basically a bunch of meaningless buzz words strung together to prey on the feelings of the gullible.

Joe Biden has been making **** like this up for forty something years now. Congress meddles in business and your personal lives to try to steer outcomes. And as a result the tax law just keeps getting bigger and bigger, and more complicated and confusing, until it is the bloated leviathan we have today.

How big is the US tax code? NOBODY KNOWS! (and I’m only partially kidding with that answer, because there’s thousands of pages of actual laws, and I don’t think anybody can actually pin down how many thousands of pages there are of supporting documentation and IRS regs and findings that translate those broad laws into the nitty-gritty real world application accountants have to deal with).

It is this complexity that makes it hard to figure out what anyone actually owes. The more complicated your affairs, the more of these laws you run into, the more “loopholes” you may be able to take advantage of.

We’ve already determined, nobody willingly pays more than they owe. The real problem is determining what you actually legally owe. And this is where it gets sticky. Because the laws are very complex, the more complicated your finances, the more likely you are to have confusion over your taxes.

Let me give you an example. I can’t remember the exact details because this was over 20 years ago, but when I was getting my accounting degree we learned about this challenge someone did, where they got something like a hundred different tax preparers, ranging from Big 5 (back then)firms, medium size firms, small firms, individual CPAs, TurboTax, H&R Block, the works… to do the taxes of the same hypothetical family of five. This family had a small business, some investments, some rental property, so on and so forth, but nothing super complicated. Then they had the hundred different preparers do their taxes… And they got a hundred different answers of what they owed that year. And each of those answers could be argued as being correct… And yet each of those answers could also be determined as wrong by an IRS auditor.

Sometimes there is confusion about what can or cannot be deducted. Some things are clear. Others are questionable. Some things the IRS has clearly stated are good to go, others you make your best guess, and then hope the auditor doesn’t disagree. There is an old tax preparer saying, pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered.

Which brings us to today, with people freaking out about how Trump allegedly didn’t pay taxes for 10 out of 15 years and how that’s UNFAIR. Assuming that the anonymous tip isn’t total bullshit—and this is the New York Times we’re talking about and they love to just make **** up—and that the information is accurate (which means that whoever leaked it committed a felony, but that’s a whole different discussion)… my answer is so?

Is it plausible that a billionaire paid no taxes for a period of several years? Yep. Totally. See all that stuff I wrote above about the complicated tax code and how it is an accountant’s sacred duty to take advantage of all the stupid laws congress has passed to save their client’s money? Pretty much that. It has happened many times before, and it will happen many times again.

One thing that’s really unfair about our tax system is that it is rigged in favor of people who have more resources. Government meddling makes it more costly to conduct business. The more complicated the regulatory burden, the more smaller companies can’t compete. Make the laws complicated enough and the only companies that stay in business are the ones who can afford to pay for twenty guys like me. (my last regular accounting job paid extremely well, and nearly everything I did was jump through government mandated hoops, filling out government mandated paperwork which nobody in the government would probably ever read)

Trump has those resources. I bet he’s got a room full of accountants, and their leader is probably a grizzled old CPA with an eye patch and a raven who sits on his shoulder. The raven also has an eye patch and an accounting degree. This man has wrestled bears, and he’s going to take advantage of every tax break in the US Code for his client, and do so gleefully, knowing that many of those laws were signed by Barack Obama and Bill Clinton.

On the other side, you know cursed good and well that the IRS has sent their most fearsome auditor against him. This man sold his soul to the devil, and then fined the devil for failing to list that soul as a depreciable asset. When he shows up to audit your company, he appears a flash of fire and brimstone, as a Finnish death metal band plays his theme song. He is an auditor bereft of mercy, compassion, or pity, and beneath his leathery wings serve a legion of IRS goblins, who will crawl into every nook and cranny of the Trump Corporation’s P&L looking for errors, and if a mouse so much as poops a turd large enough to unbalance that ledger, there will be hell to pay.

Is it unfair that rich guys can employ Gandalf level CPAs and take advantage of more complicated tax laws, while regular people use TurboTax? Yep. But in the meantime, as long as those tax laws are there, the rich guys would be utter fools not to take advantage of them.

I recall a similar freak out several years ago when it came out that some giant mega-corp (I think it was GE, but I don’t remember) didn’t pay any taxes due to some Obama green energy tax breaks. Only that time the freak out was coming from the right (who hate Obama) and the Bernie Bros (who hate all business). It’s the same kind of thing though. If the laws are on the books, of course companies (and individuals) are going to take advantage of those laws. THAT IS WHY CONGRESS PUT THEM THERE.

Now, it is perfectly okay to get mad at congress for writing stupid laws and needlessly complicating everything with their endless meddling. But it’s stupid to get mad at the people for obeying the laws that are in place.

If it comes out that Trump broke the law, then it goes back to that soulless abomination from the IRS (which again, I say with all due respect, Mr. Auditor Sir, please don’t hurt me) to hook his ebony talons into the Trump Corp’s meaty flank, to pull it down and feast upon the carcass.

Why yes… During the course of my accounting career I did go through several audits with various government agencies. Why do you ask?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 09:39:05 AM by Rams » Logged

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« Reply #109 on: September 29, 2020, 10:36:51 AM »

I am glad for RA's patient response along with Rams.

This is also the reason I respect Trump all the more, he has had to learn and deal with these issues his whole life. Biden has not, and now with the economy what it is he is the best man to lead us out of this mess. Kamala, well, lets just not talk about that.

I would not expect most to understand or know the area that is being talked about. But I am still amazed at trying to say something is bad without understanding it. It is kind of amusing to see the accusers show their own ignorance of not only what they are talking about but also how they are being used by the media.

The NYT and other publications are fermenting discord, unrest, division and some refuse to see it. I don't see that happening with them about Biden though. I wonder why? I wonder why the left trusts main stream publications that have a track record of bias and being wrong. The truth is out there all you need to do is think like so many have done.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 11:01:42 AM by Robert » Logged

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« Reply #110 on: September 29, 2020, 11:48:58 AM »

That much debt (much of it personally guaranteed) and most of it coming due in the next 4 years makes him pretty vulnerable to being leveraged by foreign interests.  But, of course, that shouldn't worry anyone at all.

The loans are backed up by the value of real estate.  It is not at all uncommon for banks to require personal guarantees for loans to any form of business.  He will be able to refinance the new loans, and probably at considerably lower interest rates when the time comes. 
I have clients who have refinances two or three times in the last two years.  There is an ample amount of money available to anybody who has assets to borrow against.
There is no back street loansharking going on here, find a new problem to rant about.
Roger, there may be no back street loansharking going on (we don't even know about that though), but can you see how it matters who he owes the money to ? $ 421,000,000 is a lot of money, with a lot of leverage.

But there is nothing wrong with Bidens sons ties to Russia and China and all the millions he was paid? No leverage there eh?
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« Reply #111 on: October 01, 2020, 11:50:53 AM »

Apparently the New York Times has egg on its face.. Just read this today at The American Thinker and thought it might be relevant to this discussion.
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/10/new_york_times_caught_naked_in_bed_with_trumps_tax_strategy_nysun.html
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« Reply #112 on: October 01, 2020, 11:58:59 AM »

I don't care about a rich person, who is actually losing money, getting into politics and getting poorer, I want to see all the tax records of the folks who went into politics and got rich. A these senators and congress people are making less than 200K a year, how are they becoming multi millionaires and some of them amassing hundreds of millions. Those are the tax returns I want to see opened up.
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98valk
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« Reply #113 on: October 01, 2020, 12:02:46 PM »

I don't care about a rich person, who is actually losing money, getting into politics and getting poorer, I want to see all the tax records of the folks who went into politics and got rich. A these senators and congress people are making less than 200K a year, how are they becoming multi millionaires and some of them amassing hundreds of millions. Those are the tax returns I want to see opened up.


can see their salaries over the yrs. see how low they were when pelosi, schummer and biden all started.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salaries_of_members_of_the_United_States_Congress
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« Reply #114 on: October 01, 2020, 05:02:59 PM »

The New York Times’ claim that President Donald Trump paid just $750 in federal income taxes in 2016 and 2017 is wrong, based on a flawed understanding of how taxes are paid.

The figures below, drawn from the New York Times’s own analysis of Trump’s tax-return data for 2017, show that Trump paid $7,435,857 in taxes in 2017.

The Times says the tax return data show that Trump’s earnings were negative for the year, so he owned nothing in regular income taxes. But he was subject to the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT), a parallel tax system aimed at making sure wealthy people cannot use deductions to eliminate their tax liability altogether. According to the Times, “the A.M.T. formula disallowed $45 million in losses that Mr. Trump had carried over from prior years.”

As a result, Trump was left with an AMT bill of $7,435,857, according to the Times.

There was no way for Trump to avoid this tax liability. He had to pay it down using his assets. And he did.

What confused the Times is Trump did not pay the liability with a check. He used a credit issued to him earlier by the government, a credit that can only be used to pay taxes

https://www.breitbart.com/economy/2020/10/01/carney-new-york-times-is-wrong-trump-paid-millions-taxes-2017/

But tax laws gave him one more line on which to reduce the A.M.T. Mr. Trump had $22.7 million in General Business Credit, much of it carried forward from prior years, that he could apply. The credit is a smorgasbord of tax incentives and givebacks to business owners, and in Mr. Trump’s case they ranged from credits of $322,926 for Social Security and Medicare taxes paid on employee tips to at least $1.5 million related to rehabilitating the Old Post Office in Washington.

The business credit cannot be used to get a refund; it can only be applied against taxes owed. Mr. Trump had more than enough to cancel out his $7,435,857 tax bill. But on the Form 3800 for the General Business Credit, his accountants subtracted $750 from his allowable credit. Why they did that is not clear. But the result was a total federal income tax liability of $750
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« Reply #115 on: October 02, 2020, 03:04:56 AM »

It must get tiring disliking someone so much then the news media steps in and gives you a juicy story to point a finger at only to find out not only was the information criminally obtained but the information was interpreted wrong and presented wrong on purpose or at the very least incompetently.

So it deflates all the finger pointing and reasons to dislike someone. You were lied to by the very sources you trusted and pointed your fingers based on a lie. It takes all the credibility away from those who would do this and rely on criminally obtained information.

But what really is a kick in the can is the ones you like not only lie to you but are some of the most corrupt people who have the destruction of the country at their heart.

Yet somehow this is not seen and its not addressed which lends further to the loss of credibility on each persons part that would overlook this.

For all his blistering speeches and hard to accept talk it seems Trump is a much more reputable man than those he runs against.

But that is what he has told us and shown us all along, in fact this is what he is trying to save this country from.

You can be a politician or be a man of honor it seems many choose to vote for who they are comfortable with. The outward appearance or the inward integrity.

I am tired of all who would smooth talk and when you listen to the half lies and truths their stories fall apart like a pair of old jeans. I much prefer those who would not polish their words but tell the truth and the good intent of their heart is displayed in the results of their actions.

It brings welcome relief from the constant drum beat of the incompetent actions of those who either plan destruction or fall into it by ignorance.

Everything he has been accused of seems to fall apart and we find out that accusers are the ones that are actually doing these things and worse, trying very hard to project their own criminal deeds and seared conscious on to others.

I say that there are many in this country that see these truths and therefore will vote for Trump and give him another 4 years that I also will look forward to. It will be nice to get our country back, I only hope while removing the corruption it does not remove the strength of this nation.

The OP's original line, "the truth comes to light" I cannot agree more.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 03:52:19 AM by Robert » Logged

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« Reply #116 on: October 02, 2020, 04:00:53 AM »

I've been pretty vocal about not being a member of the DJT fan club.   I simply don't like a lot about him but, as someone else said previously, we didn't hire him for his personality.

He's tried to keep all of his campaign promises, that doesn't happen often, if ever.   He's risen above all the false charges the Democrats have thrown his direction.   They have tried to pull every trick in the book.   They are trying to write new chapters in that book also.

I've lost any respect I ever had for the Democratic leadership  although, admittedly there wasn't much prior to President Trump's administration.   That pretty much ended with President Clinton.

Now with two elderly men running for the Oval Office combined with COVID 19. that makes our selection even more important knowing the winning side will have a VP ready to step in.   That lost respect thing keeps raising it's ugly head.   Some may think highly of Senator Harris, I don't.

Rams
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« Reply #117 on: October 02, 2020, 04:41:43 AM »

I've been pretty vocal about not being a member of the DJT fan club.   I simply don't like a lot about him but, as someone else said previously, we didn't hire him for his personality.

He's tried to keep all of his campaign promises, that doesn't happen often, if ever.   He's risen above all the false charges the Democrats have thrown his direction.   They have tried to pull every trick in the book.   They are trying to write new chapters in that book also.

I've lost any respect I ever had for the Democratic leadership  although, admittedly there wasn't much prior to President Trump's administration.   That pretty much ended with President Clinton.

Now with two elderly men running for the Oval Office combined with COVID 19. that makes our selection even more important knowing the winning side will have a VP ready to step in.   That lost respect thing keeps raising it's ugly head.   Some may think highly of Senator Harris, I don't.

Rams
Yes, you have started nearly every post stating how you are not a fan of the President's personalities and behaviors. Yet, you stick up for him at every turn. It reminds me the same of the current Republican congressmen and senators. They love to privately confide to journalists how they are appalled at the President's actions and behaviors, yet they say or do nothing publicly.


(And yes, we all know you are a registered Democrat)
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Covington, TN


« Reply #118 on: October 02, 2020, 04:48:50 AM »

I've been pretty vocal about not being a member of the DJT fan club.   I simply don't like a lot about him but, as someone else said previously, we didn't hire him for his personality.

He's tried to keep all of his campaign promises, that doesn't happen often, if ever.   He's risen above all the false charges the Democrats have thrown his direction.   They have tried to pull every trick in the book.   They are trying to write new chapters in that book also.

I've lost any respect I ever had for the Democratic leadership  although, admittedly there wasn't much prior to President Trump's administration.   That pretty much ended with President Clinton.

Now with two elderly men running for the Oval Office combined with COVID 19. that makes our selection even more important knowing the winning side will have a VP ready to step in.   That lost respect thing keeps raising it's ugly head.   Some may think highly of Senator Harris, I don't.

Rams
Yes, you have started nearly every post stating how you are not a fan of the President's personalities and behaviors. Yet, you stick up for him at every turn. It reminds me the same of the current Republican congressmen and senators. They love to privately confide to journalists how they are appalled at the President's actions and behaviors, yet they say or do nothing publicly.


(And yes, we all know you are a registered Democrat)

What can I say, I respect a man that keeps his word.    coolsmiley   I didn't say I agreed with everything he's ever said or done.   He has tried to keep his campaign promises, he was not in collusion with the Russians as HRC and her co-conspirators tried to say.   Some folks hop on every allegation thrown at DJT at every opportunity, whether based in fact or fiction, doesn't matter.  There are so many things the Dem leadership has tried to screw him and us on.   Yeah, I'll stand up for him.
Oh, you apparently do read some of my posts.  Wink

Don't really care who it reminds you of.  Have a safe day.


Rams  
« Last Edit: October 02, 2020, 04:52:20 AM by Rams » Logged

VRCC# 29981
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« Reply #119 on: October 02, 2020, 05:00:01 AM »

I've been pretty vocal about not being a member of the DJT fan club.   I simply don't like a lot about him but, as someone else said previously, we didn't hire him for his personality.

He's tried to keep all of his campaign promises, that doesn't happen often, if ever.   He's risen above all the false charges the Democrats have thrown his direction.   They have tried to pull every trick in the book.   They are trying to write new chapters in that book also.

I've lost any respect I ever had for the Democratic leadership  although, admittedly there wasn't much prior to President Trump's administration.   That pretty much ended with President Clinton.

Now with two elderly men running for the Oval Office combined with COVID 19. that makes our selection even more important knowing the winning side will have a VP ready to step in.   That lost respect thing keeps raising it's ugly head.   Some may think highly of Senator Harris, I don't.

Rams
Yes, you have started nearly every post stating how you are not a fan of the President's personalities and behaviors. Yet, you stick up for him at every turn. It reminds me the same of the current Republican congressmen and senators. They love to privately confide to journalists how they are appalled at the President's actions and behaviors, yet they say or do nothing publicly.


(And yes, we all know you are a registered Democrat)

What can I say, I respect a man that keeps his word.    coolsmiley   I didn't say I agreed with everything he's ever said or done.   He has tried to keep his campaign promises, he was not in collusion with the Russians as HRC and her co-conspirators tried to say.   Some folks hop on every allegation thrown at DJT at every opportunity, whether based in fact or fiction, doesn't matter.  There are so many things the Dem leadership has tried to screw him and us on.   Yeah, I'll stand up for him.
Oh, you apparently do read some of my posts.  Wink

Don't really care who it reminds you of.  Have a safe day.


Rams  
I have always read your posts Ron. I think you are a smart, insightful guy. Sometimes I am dismayed at your thought process though. You also have a safe and good day.  cooldude
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