Automobile Help/Insight needed

[G-Man]

2010 Toyota Rav4 with 130K miles

When warm, at complete stop, car shutters and then stalls.  Starts right back up, usually.  May have to wait a minute to start back up.

Had these symptoms in an old Pontiac 6000 and I put a new transmission in for $700 (probably 5 or 6 times that cost nowadays).

Youtube and internet says this can happen if transmission fluid is low or could be transfer case.

So, I checked the transmission fluid for the first time in 130K miles and it was at the appropriate level checked when warm and in neutral, but the fluid was black and smelled burnt.

Would a transmission fluid flush at the local quickie lube help, or would it be a waste of $159?

Thanks.

[Timbo1]

When you say it shutters and stalls it makes me think something with the engine not running correctly.  Tranny would be at the bottom of my list.  Now if you said it felt like it was jerking or grabbing intermittently I'd think tranny.

I'd hook it up to a ODB II scanner and see if there's any codes stored.  If your lucky it could be something as simple as a throttle position sensor or O2 sensor that you could repair yourself. 

Alternatively you could probably take it in to a Toyota dealership and have them diagnose the problem.  They my even waive the diagnosis fee if you have them do the repair, IDK but worth checking on.

[f-Stop]

130K miles on a 10/11 year old Toyota RAV4 is not that much.  But, burnt and black transmission fluid is not a good thing at all.

Does the vehicle run and idle OK in Park or Neutral?

Does the vehicle shift OK while running under normal circumstances?  Does it shift OK when cold?

Does the vehicle start up readily when cold?

Does the vehicle run OK when cold?  When hot?

Are there any warning lights -- like, "Check Engine" -- turned on or blinking?

Like Timbo1 said, running a diagnostic could tell you a lot.  Some diagnostics can be run without a diagnostic tester.  The Owner's Manual should have a list of diagnostics you can do yourself by performing a sequence of commands like:  turning the ignition on and off twice then pressing the brake peddle three times...then seeing how many times the blinkers blink...or something along those lines.

[Beardo]

If the fluid is black and smells bad, it needs to be replaced anyway. I’d do that first and see if it fixes it. I sure wouldn’t want to have a dealer or someone to just tell me the transmission needs to be replaced without trying new fluid first. I wouldn’t go to a quick lube place though. Go to a mechanic that can check for codes while you’re there.

[Ken aka Oil Burner]

I was a Toyota tech up until 2018. Without driving it myself, I can't "feel" what's going on, but here's some of my thoughts. The engine RPM dropping to the point of stalling could be caused mechanically by a torque converter not unlocking properly, or because of a performance issue with the engine itself. When it does the shudder/stall issue, does it feel like the vehicle is still trying to push forward? As in, like you're accelerating with the brakes pushed? If so, that would lead me to believe that it's torque converter related. If not, I'd start with some simpler checks. Is the check engine light on? If so, there's a code that may lead you in a particular direction. Was the battery recently replaced, or did it get low enough to require a jump start? The throttle body on your Rav is what meters the air to set engine speed. Over time, normal combustion gasses and oil vapor build up on the back side of the throttle blade and in the housing, turning to a layer of carbon. This reduces and disturbs the airflow past the throttle blade. As this buildup happens slowly over time, the engine computer compensates for it. It sees the engine idling lower that it should, and it commands the throttle body to open the blade just a little bit more until target RPM is achieved. As the buildup gets worse, the command to open raises further and further. Power lost to the ECU can reset the idle-speed command back to baseline. You wouldn't notice anything at speed, because the throttle is opened while you're driving. When cold, the ECU uses a preset setting for high idle, so you wouldn't notice it there either. You only really have an issue warm, and at idle; not unlike when you say yours is acting up. If this sounds like your issue, cleaning the throttle body should help. This is a clip I found on Youtube (not me) that shows pretty much how I do it. Throttle body cleaner on a rag and wipe all around the inside of the housing, and the back of the throttle blade itself. https://youtu.be/APrb2DVFpTo?t=743

If it feels transmission related rather than a low idle chugging / stall, you'll need to find someone that can access the ECU with a scan tool to watch the converter clutch solenoid operation, and possibly graph it during a stall event to see what's really happening.

[sandy]

I feel you have 2 issues. The tranny fluid is old and I’d replace it to see if that solves any shifting issues. The shudder/stalling issue is probably the IAC valve being dirty. That is the “Idle air control Bypass Valve” . Most of the time it can be removed and cleaned and replaced. Use brake or carb cleaner along with a small brush to scrub it out. Hose debris out with water and blow dry before installation.

[Ken aka Oil Burner]

His Toyota doesn't have a separate IAC valve. The electronic throttle body performs that function by altering the position of the throttle blade to provide the "extra" air that the IAC valve used to do.

[Skinhead]

I agree with oilburner.  Clean the throttle body.  Also, I don't know if this vehicle has an EGR valve, but if it does, and it sticks open at idle, the engine will run rough and can stall.  A stuck torque converter clutch, caused by a bad TCC solenoid will also cause a stall.  Most auto parts store will read DTCs, codes for free.  White down any set codes and report back, and we can be of more help.

[CoreyP]

Sounds more like misfiring of the engine to me. That should show up in the DTC codes, that's where I would start.

[Jims99]

My daughters Nissan was doing a similar thing. Found oil was leaking from the valve cover and filling up around the spark plugs. That was causing a short and misfire at idle. Drained oil from around plugs, cleaned it al up and ran great. Had to replace the whole cover as the new gasket is built into it.
Just a thought of something else to check. I would definitely change the tranny fluid but don’t open anything up to clean. I was told if you don’t keep them maintained the dirt settles and if disturbed will start giving you other problems. Maybe oilburner will chime in if I’m right or not.

[Ken aka Oil Burner]

Toyota automatic transmissions are very resilient. They take abuse that other makes won't. The reason for the idea of not servicing a very dirty transmission is that in some cases, piston seals are dried up and hardened, and the only thing keeping them working is the layer of gelled fluid around them. Fresh fluid was thought to clean that out, thereby causing hydraulic problems. In these cases, fresh fluid didn't kill the transmission; it was already a dead man walking. Removing a transmission pan shouldn't disturb any dirt or anything. Any debris in that area should come out with the pan removal. That said, I probably wouldn't change the filter or drop the pan unless I thought I had to access the valve body for some reason. Toyota filters are closer to window screen than a fine filtering device  . There should be a drain plug on this Rav4, and there are multiple ways to "service" the transmission. Some do one, or several, drain and refills. Others may do a home-flush, much like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntFVCVW-lG8 . Those who don't want the mess, or the hassle of getting rid of a few gallons of old fluid, may go to a trusted shop who has a transmission flushing machine. In any case, the transmission calls for Toyota WS fluid, or an aftermarket alternative. Just make sure it lists Toyota WS on the bottle.

I'm curious to hear back from G-man with any further info or developments. One reason I'm leaning away from a transmission issue is this from the original post: "May have to wait a minute to start back up." If my vehicle stalls after I come to a stop, I'm putting it in PARK to try to restart it. If the transmission is in PARK, the hydraulic link to the wheels is interrupted, so the converter being locked would have no bearing on whether it should start right back up or not. Makes me feel that it's more engine-performance related.

[Black Dog]

I wouldn't do a fluid flush at a 'quickie' shop...  Ruined an otherwise perfectly good '97 Honda Civic doing that at a local Quaker State shop. Had it done because of high miles and the fluid was old and dark/burnt, still shifted and ran well.  After the flush, the car shifted with a BANG, and was never 'right' again. Quaker State said they were not at fault, and no way to prove what they did messed it up.

Sold it to a kid that had a spare tranny, and accepted the crappy shifting.

I was told that a 'flush' probably loosened up some gunk that blocked a passage, thus screwing up a good Tranny.

Black Dog

[Ken aka Oil Burner]

I hesitated to recommend anyone to go to any shop, because I don't know any other than those in my area, and I don't even know any of them well. That's pretty much why I said "trusted shop". I do my own stuff, but I know that most people do not. If you've got someone that does by you right, continue to go there. I won't use quick stops for even an oil change. I've seen a lot of oops mistakes over the years. Some minor, some major. I had no idea that Jiffy Lube had a "disaster recovery team" (their words; not mine) until they sent one of their people out to have a look at the destroyed rear differential on a Jeep Wrangler that they forgot to put the fill plug in after changing the gear lube. If you've got a full time team to inspect your screw-ups, maybe you need to revisit your business model.

Also, each manufacturer has it's challenges. For Toyota, transmissions aren't it. Very resilient to abuse, misuse, and lack of maintenance. But again, I'm leaning away from a transmission issue. I say that with the disclaimer that I'm not there looking at or working on the Rav. I hope our information helps G-man fix the problem without throwing darts at a wall. I've seen that from "professional" mechanics at times. It gets expensive when you're footing the bill, though.

[Skinhead]

I hesitated to recommend anyone to go to any shop, because I don't know any other than those in my area, and I don't even know any of them well. That's pretty much why I said "trusted shop". I do my own stuff, but I know that most people do not. If you've got someone that does by you right, continue to go there. I won't use quick stops for even an oil change. I've seen a lot of oops mistakes over the years. Some minor, some major. I had no idea that Jiffy Lube had a "disaster recovery team" (their words; not mine) until they sent one of their people out to have a look at the destroyed rear differential on a Jeep Wrangler that they forgot to put the fill plug in after changing the gear lube. If you've got a full time team to inspect your screw-ups, maybe you need to revisit your business model.

Also, each manufacturer has it's challenges. For Toyota, transmissions aren't it. Very resilient to abuse, misuse, and lack of maintenance. But again, I'm leaning away from a transmission issue. I say that with the disclaimer that I'm not there looking at or working on the Rav. I hope our information helps G-man fix the problem without throwing darts at a wall. I've seen that from "professional" mechanics at times. It gets expensive when you're footing the bill, though.

So OB, does that vehicle have an EGR valve, of do they use variable valve timing in place of an EGR valve?

[Ken aka Oil Burner]

No EGR on those. It is a VVT engine.

[G-Man]

Hi All,

Yes, feels like it wants to go forward when it shakes and then stalls.  Staterted right back up for me several times.  Dash lights include check engine, traction control, and another I can't remember.  Local shop said needs evap canister as per the codes. 

G

[pais]

Hi All,

Yes, feels like it wants to go forward when it shakes and then stalls.  Staterted right back up for me several times.  Dash lights include check engine, traction control, and another I can't remember.  Local shop said needs evap canister as per the codes. 

G

Have you checked the oil? Having a VVT engine, low oil or dirty oil that may have clogged the screen of the VTEC Solenoid (what it is called in a Honda CRV). The symptoms you describe are just about identical to what my Daughter was experiencing with her '05 CRV(even the traction control light coming on) w/218000 miles. Hers was actually low on oil and needed a new solenoid.

[G-Man]

Did a transmission fluid swap at the local valvoline quick lube because it had to be done anyway and it was prolly the cheapest thing to do anyway.  been driving it around town for a few days now and it hasn't stalled on me once.  Added fuel injector cleaner and am 1/4 way through the gas tank.  The dash lights are for an evap canister.  This has been going on for a while now.  Mechanic said it doesn't effect the way the car runs and really doesn't need fixing if it doesn't.