Student Loan question

[f6gal]

I think “student loan” forgiveness is STUPID ! But I also find it telling how many have no problem with other “loan forgiveness”. When people rack up debt, be it credit card or other, and then file bankruptcy we are in essence picking up their debt. I suspect this alone might dwarf the student loan debt.

Not quite the same, first there are multiple types of bankruptcies, I believe there are more Chapter 11-13 (Restructuring of debt with payback) than there are Chapter 7 (Total liquidation), as well even in a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, it's the lenders who lose out, not the taxpayers...

No, it’s not exactly the same. The taxpayers do lose in many ways though, along with private companies. The concept I was trying to convey is that many are ok with debt relief in other forms.

I started to respond to this, but I can't right now.  BigBF's death has me floored.  My usual low threshold for nonsense is even lower today.  

Connie,
I am also floored by this.  Bill and I have been discussing him being at my place for the Mississippi Madness Meet, Greet and Eat.   Similar to what he did at my Kentucky home a few years ago.   He was looking forward to coming if he could work it out.

The only thing that keeps me going right now through the shock and sadness is I know there won’t be a broken Valkyrie in Valhalla now.

Rams

Nice sentiment Ron.  Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack your thread.

[Rams]

I think “student loan” forgiveness is STUPID ! But I also find it telling how many have no problem with other “loan forgiveness”. When people rack up debt, be it credit card or other, and then file bankruptcy we are in essence picking up their debt. I suspect this alone might dwarf the student loan debt.

Not quite the same, first there are multiple types of bankruptcies, I believe there are more Chapter 11-13 (Restructuring of debt with payback) than there are Chapter 7 (Total liquidation), as well even in a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, it's the lenders who lose out, not the taxpayers...

No, it’s not exactly the same. The taxpayers do lose in many ways though, along with private companies. The concept I was trying to convey is that many are ok with debt relief in other forms.

I started to respond to this, but I can't right now.  BigBF's death has me floored.  My usual low threshold for nonsense is even lower today.  

Connie,
I am also floored by this.  Bill and I have been discussing him being at my place for the Mississippi Madness Meet, Greet and Eat.   Similar to what he did at my Kentucky home a few years ago.   He was looking forward to coming if he could work it out.

The only thing that keeps me going right now through the shock and sadness is I know there won’t be a broken Valkyrie in Valhalla now.

Rams

Nice sentiment Ron.  Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack your thread.

You didn’t, we all thought the world of Bill.

Rams

[Rams]

Fox Business
AOC says Biden 'needs' to be pushed on erasing $50,000 in student loan debt: 'We cannot take no for an answer'

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Thursday reiterated her push for President Biden to unilaterally cancel billions of dollars in student loan debt, warning that whether or not the White House does so "all comes down to public pressure."


The New York Democrat said progressives need to keep pressing the Biden administration to move further left on the matter after the president indicated he was "unlikely" to use his authority to fully forgive student loan debt for individual borrowers.

CANCELING STUDENT LOAN DEBT WOULD BE INEFFECTIVE AT BOOSTING THE ECONOMY, STUDY SHOWS

"The Biden admin NEEDS to be pushed," Ocasio-Cortez wrote during an Instagram Q&A on Tuesday night. "They have said they're comfortable with $10K in forgiveness but we NEED at least $50K minimum and there is support for 50K."

Biden has called for forgiving $10,000 in student loan debt as part of a broader coronavirus relief effort, and extended a freeze on student loan payments through Sept. 30, 2021 immediately upon entering office, benefiting about 41 million Americans — but Ocasio-Cortez said the president needs to go further.

"We cannot take no for an answer," she said. "This will all come down to public pressure. We have a window to ORGANIZE and rally for your public officials to demand forgiveness."

CANCELING STUDENT LOAN DEBT COULD BENEFIT WEALTHY AMERICANS THE MOST

Last week, a group of progressive lawmakers, including Sens. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., and Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., as well as Reps. Ayanna Pressley, D-Mass., Ilhan Omar, D-Minn., Vernon Jones, D-Ga., and Alma Adams, D-N.C., introduced a resolution calling on Biden to erase $50,000 in student loan debt via executive order.

The lawmakers maintained that Biden could use existing executive authority under the Higher Education Act to order the Department of Education to “modify, compromise, waive or release” student loans.

"Canceling student loan debt is the single most effective executive action that President Biden can take to kickstart this economy," Warren said.

Still, canceling student loan debt may disproportionately benefit wealthy Americans: A recent working paper published by the University of Chicago’s Becker Friedman Institute for Economics shows that erasing all student loan debt would distribute $192 billion to the top 20% of earners in the U.S., but just $29 billion to the bottom 20% of U.S. households.

BIDEN TO EXTEND STUDENT LOAN FORBEARANCE, EVICTION MORATORIUM

Under a universal loan forgiveness program, the average individual among the top-earning borrowers would receive $5,944 in forgiveness, while those with the lowest incomes would receive $1,070 in forgiveness, according to the study, authored by economists Sylvain Catherine and Constantine Yannelis.

Such sweeping executive action by Biden would almost certainly face a legal challenge, and it's unclear whether it could survive. Critics have argued that using such power exceeds the president's authority granted by Congress.

Erasing student loan debt would also add to the nation's already-ballooning national deficit, which totaled a record $3.1 trillion for the 2020 fiscal year -- not including the $900 billion coronavirus relief legislation that lawmakers approved in December.

Outstanding student loan debt has doubled over the past decade, nearing a staggering $1.7 trillion. About one in six American adults owes money on federal student loan debt, which is the largest amount of non-mortgage debt in the U.S.

It has been cited as a major hindrance in people’s "economic life" by Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell.

[Jess from VA]

It has been cited as a major hindrance in people’s "economic life" by Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell.

I think he was referring to the democratic party.

[old2soon]

        Bought my first house-took out a long term loan-and Even as a Veteran when the economy went sorta south in the 70s No Body offered to forgive my loan. Wife and I scrambled to Keep what we were paying on. Truth be knowed Never even considered being bailed out. Our-Wife and I-Responsibility and No one elses. NOT braggin here but the key word here I M H O IS Responsibility for ones own actions. And TRUST Me please-The Navy believed that too-Responsibility for ones Own actions as I'm SURE the other Military Services Are. And as I've Never had a student loan my thinkin here is the Students responsibilities Are laid out in the contract they signed. Some body Way smarter than me said something alomg the lines of-a gubmint big enough to Give you everything you need IS a gubmint big enough to take away everything you have.  Kinda like ta hang onto what little bit I have thank you very much!  RIDE SAFE.

[Patrick]

        Bought my first house-took out a long term loan-and Even as a Veteran when the economy went sorta south in the 70s No Body offered to forgive my loan. Wife and I scrambled to Keep what we were paying on. Truth be knowed Never even considered being bailed out. Our-Wife and I-Responsibility and No one elses. NOT braggin here but the key word here I M H O IS Responsibility for ones own actions. And TRUST Me please-The Navy believed that too-Responsibility for ones Own actions as I'm SURE the other Military Services Are. And as I've Never had a student loan my thinkin here is the Students responsibilities Are laid out in the contract they signed. Some body Way smarter than me said something alomg the lines of-a gubmint big enough to Give you everything you need IS a gubmint big enough to take away everything you have.  Kinda like ta hang onto what little bit I have thank you very much!  RIDE SAFE.

Yep, us too. Money wasn't readily available for such mundane things way back then. Our mortgage rate was 13.25% so we paid the damn thing off as soon as we could. So, debt forgiveness is a sore subject with me. As stated earlier, college loan was fully paid at 6%.

[f6gal]

Hey, to that one person that voted yes.  Ifin' ya want to bypass congress, you can send your $50k to me and I'll apply it to my student loan. 

[old2soon]

Hey, to that one person that voted yes.  Ifin' ya want to bypass congress, you can send your $50k to me and I'll apply it to my student loan. 

                ONLY when you send me 18.73% of that 50K!  Bout $9364.00 or so!  RIDE SAFE.

[f6gal]

I think “student loan” forgiveness is STUPID ! But I also find it telling how many have no problem with other “loan forgiveness”. When people rack up debt, be it credit card or other, and then file bankruptcy we are in essence picking up their debt. I suspect this alone might dwarf the student loan debt.

Not quite the same, first there are multiple types of bankruptcies, I believe there are more Chapter 11-13 (Restructuring of debt with payback) than there are Chapter 7 (Total liquidation), as well even in a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, it's the lenders who lose out, not the taxpayers...

No, it’s not exactly the same. The taxpayers do lose in many ways though, along with private companies. The concept I was trying to convey is that many are ok with debt relief in other forms.

Meathead, I saw no one in this thread advocate for "other forms" of debt relief.  Can't you just say you're opposed to it, without bringing in something totally unrelated?  Over the years, the restrictions on bankruptcies have tightened and most are now Chapter 11.  Chapter 7s are far less common than in the past.

Personally, I am of the mindset that if you sign for a debt, you pay it; someone trusted you do that.  That said, sometimes sh!t happens.  In my early 20's, I had a situation that forced me to file BK (it's a long, sad story; I'll tell you in person sometime, if you remind me).  Anyway, I was deeply ashamed and humiliated.  A few years later, when I was in a better position, I tried to repay those creditors that I had stiffed.  I was told by each, that the debt had been discharged and there was no way to reinstate it for repayment.  To this day, some 40 years later, I still feel guilty about it.  

My point is that BK laws exist for a reason.  Do some people abuse them?  Sure, but that's true of everything, isn't it?  

This student loan forgiveness is a different situation entirely.  Blanket, widespread redistribution of money for political reasons only.  Trying to buy the "young" votes; the votes of those that don't understand the repercussions of such a move; the votes of those that don't care, as long as they get theirs.  Disgusting.  

[f6gal]

Hey, to that one person that voted yes.  Ifin' ya want to bypass congress, you can send your $50k to me and I'll apply it to my student loan. 

                ONLY when you send me 18.73% of that 50K!  Bout $9364.00 or so!  RIDE SAFE.

Dennis, I'm sure you were NOT the yes vote.

[Rams]

Hey, to that one person that voted yes.  Ifin' ya want to bypass congress, you can send your $50k to me and I'll apply it to my student loan. 

                ONLY when you send me 18.73% of that 50K!  Bout $9364.00 or so!  RIDE SAFE.

Dennis, I'm sure you were NOT the yes vote.

Probably not but, he still might be interested in that $9364.00 or so.  I certainly would. 

Rams

[The emperor has no clothes]

I think “student loan” forgiveness is STUPID ! But I also find it telling how many have no problem with other “loan forgiveness”. When people rack up debt, be it credit card or other, and then file bankruptcy we are in essence picking up their debt. I suspect this alone might dwarf the student loan debt.

Not quite the same, first there are multiple types of bankruptcies, I believe there are more Chapter 11-13 (Restructuring of debt with payback) than there are Chapter 7 (Total liquidation), as well even in a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, it's the lenders who lose out, not the taxpayers...

No, it’s not exactly the same. The taxpayers do lose in many ways though, along with private companies. The concept I was trying to convey is that many are ok with debt relief in other forms.

Meathead, I saw no one in this thread advocate for "other forms" of debt relief.  Can't you just say you're opposed to it, without bringing in something totally unrelated?  Over the years, the restrictions on bankruptcies have tightened and most are now Chapter 11.  Chapter 7s are far less common than in the past.

Personally, I am of the mindset that if you sign for a debt, you pay it; someone trusted you do that.  That said, sometimes sh!t happens.  In my early 20's, I had a situation that forced me to file BK (it's a long, sad story; I'll tell you in person sometime, if you remind me).  Anyway, I was deeply ashamed and humiliated.  A few years later, when I was in a better position, I tried to repay those creditors that I had stiffed.  I was told by each, that the debt had been discharged and there was no way to reinstate it for repayment.  To this day, some 40 years later, I still feel guilty about it.  

My point is that BK laws exist for a reason.  Do some people abuse them?  Sure, but that's true of everything, isn't it?  

This student loan forgiveness is a different situation entirely.  Blanket, widespread redistribution of money for political reasons only.  Trying to buy the "young" votes; the votes of those that don't understand the repercussions of such a move; the votes of those that don't care, as long as they get theirs.  Disgusting.  

yes it is disgusting. Yes, I could just say I’m against it. But then, that wouldn’t be completely fair and honest, would it ? I assign no blame to those who have been forced to file bankruptcy due to circumstances, yourself included. But I know more than a few people who have went out and purposefully lived above their means, only to use that. I know even more that have purposely went out and bought off-road vehicles, motor homes, boats, etc. on credit cards to later “settle” with them for a fraction of the debt. When someone or some company folds up and uses the bankruptcy laws to come out clean as a whistle, leaving others to hold the bag, we overlook this by and large. All, I’m saying is let’s hold debt relief to the same standards all around.

[Rams]

All that might be applicable if, President Biden was proposing Bankruptcy debt relief but, that's does not appear on his agenda.   At least, not yet.   The Student Loan Forgiveness is.  

To suggest that this forgiveness of student loans is anything more than buying new voters is pure BS IMO.

Rams

[Valkorado]

I received some grants, and worked 3/4 time while carrying a full class schedule.  It seems that some of my friends who were skiing and sucking on keg taps accrued heftier debts.

I had my relatively small loans paid off within two years of graduation.

[f6gal]

I think “student loan” forgiveness is STUPID ! But I also find it telling how many have no problem with other “loan forgiveness”. When people rack up debt, be it credit card or other, and then file bankruptcy we are in essence picking up their debt. I suspect this alone might dwarf the student loan debt.

Not quite the same, first there are multiple types of bankruptcies, I believe there are more Chapter 11-13 (Restructuring of debt with payback) than there are Chapter 7 (Total liquidation), as well even in a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, it's the lenders who lose out, not the taxpayers...

No, it’s not exactly the same. The taxpayers do lose in many ways though, along with private companies. The concept I was trying to convey is that many are ok with debt relief in other forms.

Meathead, I saw no one in this thread advocate for "other forms" of debt relief.  Can't you just say you're opposed to it, without bringing in something totally unrelated?  Over the years, the restrictions on bankruptcies have tightened and most are now Chapter 11.  Chapter 7s are far less common than in the past.

Personally, I am of the mindset that if you sign for a debt, you pay it; someone trusted you do that.  That said, sometimes sh!t happens.  In my early 20's, I had a situation that forced me to file BK (it's a long, sad story; I'll tell you in person sometime, if you remind me).  Anyway, I was deeply ashamed and humiliated.  A few years later, when I was in a better position, I tried to repay those creditors that I had stiffed.  I was told by each, that the debt had been discharged and there was no way to reinstate it for repayment.  To this day, some 40 years later, I still feel guilty about it.  

My point is that BK laws exist for a reason.  Do some people abuse them?  Sure, but that's true of everything, isn't it?  

This student loan forgiveness is a different situation entirely.  Blanket, widespread redistribution of money for political reasons only.  Trying to buy the "young" votes; the votes of those that don't understand the repercussions of such a move; the votes of those that don't care, as long as they get theirs.  Disgusting.  

yes it is disgusting. Yes, I could just say I’m against it. But then, that wouldn’t be completely fair and honest, would it ?

Yes, it would.  It's a completely different set of circumstances and not at all the same topic.

I assign no blame to those who have been forced to file bankruptcy due to circumstances, yourself included. But I know more than a few people who have went out and purposefully lived above their means, only to use that. I know even more that have purposely went out and bought off-road vehicles, motor homes, boats, etc. on credit cards to later “settle” with them for a fraction of the debt. When someone or some company folds up and uses the bankruptcy laws to come out clean as a whistle, leaving others to hold the bag, we overlook this by and large. 

Individual abuse of a system, does not make the system wrong, it makes that person wrong.  I don't know of anyone here that is guilty of doing so.  As I said previously, restrictions on BK have tightened, due to abuse. 

All, I’m saying is let’s hold debt relief to the same standards all around.

Yes, let's do that.  If someone needs relief from student debt, let that individual go through the same process as someone would for BK.  Apply for relief, show their debt and income, explain how they got into that situation and why they are not working in the field for which the education was intended.  And then restructure their debt to something more sustainable in their individual circumstance.  I'm ok with that. 

[The emperor has no clothes]

I’m ok with that also. 

[Jess from VA]

Personally, I am of the mindset that if you sign for a debt, you pay it; someone trusted you do that.  That said, sometimes sh!t happens.  In my early 20's, I had a situation that forced me to file BK (it's a long, sad story; I'll tell you in person sometime, if you remind me).  Anyway, I was deeply ashamed and humiliated.  A few years later, when I was in a better position, I tried to repay those creditors that I had stiffed.  I was told by each, that the debt had been discharged and there was no way to reinstate it for repayment.  To this day, some 40 years later, I still feel guilty about it.  

My point is that BK laws exist for a reason.  Do some people abuse them?  Sure, but that's true of everything, isn't it?  

Connie, not many may be aware if it but.......Personal bankruptcy is a fundamental Constitutional right.  Article I, Section 8, of the United States Constitution authorizes Congress to enact “uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies” for the benefit of debtors who are United States citizens.  (it may also be guaranteed in various state constitutions)  (it is not actually viewed as an individual right, but the constitution sets up the basis for it, so it's the same thing) 

This was put in the constitution because it had not been that long since there had been debtors prisons.  Which were historically tied to Monarchy which our founders wanted no part of.  It seemed better to let debtors try to repay though continued working, than jailing them (or sending them to poor houses).  

Nonetheless, it is a fundamental right, completely unlike student loan forgiveness.

I took a number of (almost all) young people (singles and couples) through Chapter 7 liquidations soon after I got my license.  Understanding that secured creditors got paid first (if at all) (or got their collateral back), the majority of my cases involved one major unsecured debt (that most had no hope of ever repaying for a long time).  Some had caused their own trouble, but many were really not at fault so much as having bad luck (or being taken advantage of by banks or other business, or an energetic tort lawyer).  

I got paid $200 and a federal filing fee to run you through the wringer and wash you of all (or nearly all) debt, and the people I helped were very grateful.  They also may not file again for 8 more years, which suddenly makes them better credit risks, so long as they have income.  So they get a fresh start.

And, you cannot usually discharge any student loan debt in Ch 11 or 7 (without filing a separate action known as an adversary proceeding, which submits your request to the bankruptcy court and shows that repaying your loans would cause you and your family to endure undue hardship.  Which is a high bar to hurdle.

[f6gal]

I’m ok with that also. 

Woohoo!  Finally, an agreement!

[f6gal]

Personally, I am of the mindset that if you sign for a debt, you pay it; someone trusted you do that.  That said, sometimes sh!t happens.  In my early 20's, I had a situation that forced me to file BK (it's a long, sad story; I'll tell you in person sometime, if you remind me).  Anyway, I was deeply ashamed and humiliated.  A few years later, when I was in a better position, I tried to repay those creditors that I had stiffed.  I was told by each, that the debt had been discharged and there was no way to reinstate it for repayment.  To this day, some 40 years later, I still feel guilty about it.  

My point is that BK laws exist for a reason.  Do some people abuse them?  Sure, but that's true of everything, isn't it?  

Connie, not many may be aware if it but.......Personal bankruptcy is a fundamental Constitutional right.  Article I, Section 8, of the United States Constitution authorizes Congress to enact “uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies” for the benefit of debtors who are United States citizens.  (it may also be guaranteed in various state constitutions)  (it is not actually viewed as an individual right, but the constitution sets up the basis for it, so it's the same thing) 

This was put in the constitution because it had not been that long since there had been debtors prisons.  Which were historically tied to Monarchy which our founders wanted no part of.  It seemed better to let debtors try to repay though continued working, than jailing them (or sending them to poor houses).  

Nonetheless, it is a fundamental right, completely unlike student loan forgiveness.

I took a number of (almost all) young people (singles and couples) through Chapter 7 liquidations soon after I got my license.  Understanding that secured creditors got paid first (if at all) (or got their collateral back), the majority of my cases involved one major unsecured debt (that most had no hope of ever repaying for a long time).  Some had caused their own trouble, but many were really not at fault so much as having bad luck (or being taken advantage of by banks or other business, or an energetic tort lawyer).  

I got paid $200 and a federal filing fee to run you through the wringer and wash you of all (or nearly all) debt, and the people I helped were very grateful.  They also may not file again for 8 more years, which suddenly makes them better credit risks, so long as they have income.  So they get a fresh start.

And, you cannot usually discharge any student loan debt in Ch 11 or 7 (without filing a separate action known as an adversary proceeding, which submits your request to the bankruptcy court and shows that repaying your loans would cause you and your family to endure undue hardship.  Which is a high bar to hurdle. 

Jess, I actually did not know that... yay!  I learned something today.  It's also good to know that there is already a process to discharge student loan debt, if there is a true need. 

[Jess from VA]

Yeah, they're not going to let you keep your house and two Beemers and get out of your student loan.

But destitution and little chance to earn a living wage would do it.

Which brings us to university degrees (offered everywhere) in cultural studies, general studies, gender studies, black studies, woke studies, or other hogwash BS/BA degrees.  Student loans for those courses of study should simply not be allowed, because they do not lead to any meaningful employment to pay those loans back (except back in some school teaching the same hogwash).  But such policy would automatically be white supremacy and racist and be shot down in righteous flames.

Universities taking students underwritten entirely by loans to complete these courses of study are not that much different than drug dealers selling expensive dope to poor people (other than the illegal part).

(Off on a tangent again)    

[f6gal]

Yeah, they're not going to let you keep your house and two Beemers and get out of your student loan.

But destitution and little chance to earn a living wage would do it.

Which brings us to university degrees (offered everywhere) in cultural studies, general studies, gender studies, black studies, woke studies, or other hogwash BS/BA degrees.  Student loans for those courses of study should simply not be allowed, because they do not lead to any meaningful employment to pay those loans back (except back in some school teaching the same hogwash).  But such policy would automatically be white supremacy and racist and be shot down in righteous flames. 

Now that you mention it, a patient once requested paperwork regarding her medical conditions and inability to work in order to discharge a student debt.  I had forgotten about that.  If I remember right, it wasn't much different than the typical SS disability paperwork. 

[old2soon]

Hey, to that one person that voted yes.  Ifin' ya want to bypass congress, you can send your $50k to me and I'll apply it to my student loan. 

                ONLY when you send me 18.73% of that 50K!  Bout $9364.00 or so!  RIDE SAFE.

Dennis, I'm sure you were NOT the yes vote.

             Darlin-You can take THAT to the bank! Had a paper route at 12 or 13 and been working til I retired comin on 12 year back! And I Firmly BELIEVE in payin of My debts-NOT those of others! RIDE SAFE.

[Jersey mike]

https://www.theblaze.com/news/liberal-outrage-biden-student-debt

[Rams]

https://www.theblaze.com/news/liberal-outrage-biden-student-debt

From that source:

Democratic socialist Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) expressed her anger in a tweet as well.

"Who cares what school someone went to? Entire generations of working class kids were encouraged to go into more debt under the guise of elitism. This is wrong," she responded.

Others were simply outraged.

"Biden gives the middle finger to people drowning in student debt. You still think you can push him left?" tweeted activist Rania Khalek.

"This is an issue of racial, LGBTQ+, and economic justice," said New York state lawmaker Mondaire Jones.

"Black women hold the most degrees of any women and also the most student loan debt. They heavily vote for Democrats. Biden is failing his base," tweeted activist Dr. Victoria Dooley.

"Again, these are maneuvers that make no sense either economically or politically. They are in service to an ideological moderatism that doesn't align with the base of the party or with the views of a rising electorate that is younger & less white," said activist Bree Newsome.

I would like to see a graph showing us the demographics for the students and who got what as far as loans, grants and assistance versus who didn't demographically.  

Personally, I worked full time, used my GI Bill and busted my butt getting my degree.   Helped my finance (at the time), later helped my wife pay off her student loan debt and then helped both my children with their higher education.   I even took a part time job when we didn't have the resources to help my youngest.  

Nope, loans need to be paid back regardless of who or what you are.

Rams

[Jess from VA]

Leftist hysterical outrage is like normal people breathing.

Pound your outrage up your ass.  See if it makes you think more clearly.

Fawning media always calls it moral outrage, but this is just another of their lies because leftists have no morals. 

[Jersey mike]

Leftist hysterical outrage is like normal people breathing.

Pound your outrage up your ass.  See if it makes you think more clearly.