Mold In Ceiling (Non - Valkyrie Related)

[Jess from VA]

For $16K, I think I'd wait and watch a bit.  See if it grows/spreads. 

Ceiling fans? (to move/churn air)

[carolinarider09]

Ceiling fans not an option, just due to design.   Well not in the great room or dining or kitchen areas.  Bedrooms yes but they have lower flat ceilings

Waiting is an option we are considering....

[Jess from VA]

Well, ceiling fans may be out, but some kind of air mover is still an option.

Doesn't need to be a hurricane, just create some slow circulation up there. 

[Jersey mike]

After reading your report of the contractors opinions one thing still stands out to me. Is the mold caused by surface moisture IE similar to a bathroom with a shower/steam condensation accumulation on a ceiling or is it from moisture/dampness behind the sheet rock from either condensation accumulation or a leak.

I know it’s a difficult location but finding a way to get a small camera behind the mold location and the general area would still be on my list to do even if just to be able to cross it off as a potential problem.

I’m not a fan of wait and see if it goes away.

One more question; the area with the mold, does that area get direct sunlight for extended periods of the day?

[carolinarider09]

One more question; the area with the mold, does that area get direct sunlight for extended periods of the day?

No.  It faces north and, while sunlight does come in through the window on the face of the wall, it only happens for a few hours.

One other note, which may or may not be applicable, as I noted, the house is well sealed.  We do not have a way for air from outside to enter to sort of "freshen" the air inside.  It was part of the plan but I did not see a way to make it work.  (I know it does but...).  In the spring and fall we do open a few windows. 

There also is no exhaust fan over the range where the wife cooks.  She has been doing more cooking lately (at least it seems that way).  As such there is steam being released into the air.  That point, where the mold is, is the highest point in the ceiling and the furtherest away from direct sunlight coming in the north facing window. 

So..... it would seem to be a place that mold would b most likely to first "form". 

The notion of black mold is sort of interesting since each time I pull the "stopper" out of my sink, it has black mold.  Who knows.....

[carolinarider09]

Today, a gentlemen from the company that originally installed and maintains our HVAC system came out based on my request for an estimate for a new system.

The precedence for the new system was the current system is 12 years old and the life expectancy is about 15 years.  One coil has been replaced and I was told another was corroding and would need to be replaced. 

The gentlemen was listed a Home Comfort Advisor, and his picture is just below the picture of the owner of the company (if that means anything).  He listened to our information, asked some questions and basically said the following.

After close inspection, visually at the duct intakes and discharge areas in the home and in the unit itself, there is no indication of black mold or any mold for that matter.  There is some "dust". 

A look at the major air intake/discharge area in the unit itself, under the house, shows a large pipe that appears very clean, maybe some dirt on the lower seem.  No mold.

He stated several times that "mold" was not his speciality.  He was just showing us "information".   He did suggest that we might do some encapsulation work in the crawlspace, adding a think plastic over the current ground/plastic combo, covering and sealing those "required by code" foundation wall ventilators, and installing a fan in each corner of the crawlspace to induce air flow to minimize the ability of moisture to accumulate. He recommended a local person to contact.

He did not recommend that we replace the current system.  He did not see any additional corrosion on pieces parts in the HVAC system under the house and therefor saw no need to be concerned. 

I did mention that someone from his company did suggest that another heat exchanger was corroding and might need to be replaced.  He stated that his inspection of the HVAC unit did not support that. 

Very interesting conversation. 

Next step, let's see about the fans and plastic. 

[Jess from VA]

So far, to me, this guy sounds like he is the best (and most honest) one you've talked to yet.

[carolinarider09]

So far, to me, this guy sounds like he is the best (and most honest) one you've talked to yet.

Agreed.   

[Hook#3287]

Is the mold caused by surface moisture IE similar to a bathroom with a shower/steam condensation accumulation on a ceiling or is it from moisture/dampness behind the sheet rock from either condensation accumulation or a leak.

This is the question you need to answer.




Where in this picture is the mold?

Like Jess stated, wind driven rain will travel up hill.  Water could be driven up under the ridge cap and under the roofing.  The underlayment should weep it down to the eave, unless it hits a tear or improperly installed staple/nail.

If it's discovered to be a exterior leak, the type of roofing you have can be very easily removed.  You could do that dormer side in about an hour.

[carolinarider09]

Where in this picture is the mold?

I have circled it (well sort of) in the image below. 

Like Jess stated, wind driven rain will travel up hill.  Water could be driven up under the ridge cap and under the roofing.  The underlayment should weep it down to the eave, unless it hits a tear or improperly installed staple/nail.

Understood

If it's discovered to be a exterior leak, the type of roofing you have can be very easily removed.  You could do that dormer side in about an hour.

You know that is right, the hard part would be getting up there (I am gettin old).  When the guy came out from the roofers shop, he must have had special boots on but he did climb up there, look at the peak and said, while there was some caulk that was cracking, he did not believe it was leaking.  He did apply some more calk. 

Therefore, I would contact them again for help.  I did not get a bill for him coming out.  We will portably send them a check for $50 for making the trip (it was only about five miles) and the 30 minutes he spent here.   Just because he did what he did.

[carolinarider09]

For $16K, I think I'd wait and watch a bit.  See if it grows/spreads. 

Ceiling fans? (to move/churn air)

The gentlemen that came in today (from the original installer in 2010) made the same observation/suggestion as Jess.

I do not think it would be an easy task but since it's been suggested several times and he did make a good case of air movement, mold, etc.

The image below is a wider view and it shows the way its laid out.  I can get behind the wooden panel parts of the ceiling but not the white/drywall areas.  So the fan would be mounted off center.  Also I'd like a very unambiguous fan....  we shall see..

[Jess from VA]

Avoiding all the installation fun of a ceiling fan or two, what about one or two of these, on the floor, aimed up.  Pick a quiet one that moves good air on low or medium.  Or maybe an oscillating one on a standing pedestal.

https://www.amazon.com/air-circulation-fan/s?k=air+circulation+fan

https://www.amazon.com/Lasko-U12104-Velocity-Ventilating-Exhausting/dp/B07YKXF9VC/ref=sr_1_17?keywords=air+circulation+fan&qid=1663831866&sr=8-17

https://www.amazon.com/Air-Monster-Diameter-Adjustable-Oscillating/dp/B09QX4TS59/ref=sr_1_58_sspa?keywords=air+circulation+fan&qid=1663832419&sr=8-58-spons&psc=1

[..]

For $16K, I think I'd wait and watch a bit.  See if it grows/spreads. 

Ceiling fans? (to move/churn air)

The gentlemen that came in today (from the original installer in 2010) made the same observation/suggestion as Jess.

I do not think it would be an easy task but since it's been suggested several times and he did make a good case of air movement, mold, etc.

The image below is a wider view and it shows the way its laid out.  I can get behind the wooden panel parts of the ceiling but not the white/drywall areas.  So the fan would be mounted off center.  Also I'd like a very unambiguous fan....  we shall see..

Stand a fan on the balcony and point it at the mold. Leave it on for a week and see what happens?

[Jersey mike]

I tried a closer look at the photos you posted on page 1.

I tried to zoom in on the before the metal roofing was installed, when it was just the underlayment with the tin tabs hold everything down. My focus was at the peak where the ridge joins the valley.

The only thing I noticed there (but not too clearly) was it looks like there is a seam right in that area but I could just be the angle the photo was taken.

There’s plenty of overlap covering the valley, it just looks like the row above the dormer ridge comes right to the edge of the ridge and the tarpaper (underlayment) covering the ridge doesn’t go up and under that row above it. So if there was wind blown rain that could be your culprit.

[carolinarider09]

There’s plenty of overlap covering the valley, it just looks like the row above the dormer ridge comes right to the edge of the ridge and the tarpaper (underlayment) covering the ridge doesn’t go up and under that row above it. So if there was wind blown rain that could be your culprit.

And that was my thought as well because the mold did appear after a really strong rain storm with some heavy winds.   

[Hook#3287]

In my experience if it had been a vent problem or excess moisture problem it would not be localized into one spot and would be evident in a broad pattern over much of the surface.

This.

My opinion is you've got an exterior leak.

I like your house, it's got character and class.

Your roofing contractor was less than stellar, though.

Looking at the cut line on the bottom of the panels in the valley, if this is what is acceptable for finish, then covered parts?

That type of roofing, screw down metal panels, isn't that common in the north east on dwellings, as with our range of temps, -20 to 100+F, the stress on the fasteners is considerable as the panels expand and contract.  Apparently, down south, not as much as a concern, as I see it installed much more.

The screws have a "rubber" gasket, that if not properly torqued at install, they can be crushed or lose, creating a protentional future leak.  Also, over time, the gasket can dry out.

Of course, this will not usually happen for years, or even decades later, so forget any warranty.

I love metal roofing, but standing seam is the way to go.  Sorry for the bad news.

I suspect a leaking fastener, poorly installed flashing at the dormer ridge attachment point or as I mentioned earlier, compromised underlayment.

[Robert]

In my experience if it had been a vent problem or excess moisture problem it would not be localized into one spot and would be evident in a broad pattern over much of the surface.

This.

My opinion is you've got an exterior leak.

I like your house, it's got character and class.

Your roofing contractor was less than stellar, though.

Looking at the cut line on the bottom of the panels in the valley, if this is what is acceptable for finish, then covered parts?

That type of roofing, screw down metal panels, isn't that common in the north east on dwellings, as with our range of temps, -20 to 100+F, the stress on the fasteners is considerable as the panels expand and contract.  Apparently, down south, not as much as a concern, as I see it installed much more.

The screws have a "rubber" gasket, that if not properly torqued at install, they can be crushed or lose, creating a protentional future leak.  Also, over time, the gasket can dry out.

Of course, this will not usually happen for years, or even decades later, so forget any warranty.

I love metal roofing, but standing seam is the way to go.  Sorry for the bad news.

I suspect a leaking fastener, poorly installed flashing at the dormer ridge attachment point or as I mentioned earlier, compromised underlayment.

That is good information and something I didn't know. One of my big concerns with metal roofing was the fastener that hold the panels down. I would not get metal because of the exposure of those fasteners. There is no rubber, no seam, no crack that will not be exploited by water and heat down here.

[carolinarider09]

Regarding the roofing, yes standing seam would have been better but, since I built he house, except for plumbing and HVAC, I had to go with what I knew.

The roofing is "classic rib" by metal sales.  They have a plant just about 10 miles away.  Its about three feet wide and length as you request.

The screws are all placed in a standard drill/driver and there is a desire to limit the screw torque to just make sure the rubber washer makes contact and compresses slightly.

There are five buildings on the property that have metal roofs the same as the house. The only difference is the house has those darn "dormers".  The house and the garage are the only roofs that any underlayment .  The house has oriented stand board (OSB) as the first Layer then the roofing fabric and then the metal roofing. 

The garage, I used plywood and an underlayment.   Leaks .....  well you know the old saying. 

Anyway, the older building is the observatory and it has a roll off roof.

The screws, depending on the slope (based on personal experience) and what direction the roof faces, can "back out".  According to the roofer that came by to look at the potential leakage area, he said that was not abnormal and just to give them a call and the would come by, count the screws and order some oversize ones to take their place.

The roof is sealed with foam between the rafters.  The screws that "back out" are all on the part that gets direct sunlight.  At my count about 10 -20 screws have backed out.  Don't have a clue how many are in the roof.

Funny thing, the screws in the house roof are in "OSB".   The screws in the the three buildings are either in plywood (which is pine mostly) or 2x's that are also pine.   I think the issue is the OSB.  But......  I used OSB on the house roof.  Probably should have used plywood.... again, a cost issue.

This is an image of the observatory with its metal roof rolled off.



This is an image of the garage and its metal roof (before the fiberboard siding was applied.



This is an image of the workshop. 

[Jersey mike]

Was wondering if you caught any remnants of Ian and if any new signs showed up.

[carolinarider09]

Yes some wind gusts, nothing over 25 MPH (according to the weather station in the yard), some rain, heavy at times, but not as predicted (max was 1.75" on one day). 

No additional mold in the ceiling (the original spot has not grown but, its hard to tell 20 feet away).   Still discussing steps to take.  First should be a clean up and will address that in coming days.

Second is prevention if possible (ceiling fan, some work under the house but probably not full encapsulation,) I will strive to get someone to look at house ventiallaiton (that is getting outside air into and out of the home enclosure. 

Will probably, as a minimum, close off the vents and install a humidity control device.  Store working thoughts about termite inspection, ect. 

Thanks for asking.    Daughter manages hotels and she says they have the issue all the time (will indications ) and just ventilation.  Its not wide spread but does occur she says.