Valve Adjustment - Honda shop rate

[Rio Wil]

Yeah, these valve trains are pretty well oiled and don't change much.  I felt guilty at the 100K mark and decided to check the clearances....one exhaust was about .0015 too loose, so I adjusted that one.  Had a couple of intakes that were about .0005 too tight, that was not worth messing with so left them alone.  Guess I will check again in another 100K...

I used to be into British sports cars including the Rover SD1 (as a engine donor vehicle), that little 3.5liter aluminum engine had the least amount of oil in the valve train I have ever seen, swear it didn't have two drops, but the train lasted a pretty good number of miles..The cam tended to eat its lobes due to poor oiling, but that's another story.

[MikeT]

No one seems to have answered his original question that asks, what is the Honda flat rate to do a valve adjustment.  Flat rate being how much time does Honda say it will take, which is the amount of time the estimate would be for.  If the mechanic is a good one he can beat the flat rate and get paid for example 2 hours for 1.25 hours work.  If anyone has this info I would be curious as well.

[Patrick]

Lucy was always waiting for an esplanashun from Ricky.. 

[1fastbob]

Tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock waiting for the expanashun also........

[Ricky-D]

It would be foolish to deny the possibility of valve seat wear and the corresponding result from such wear but the reality of this was most prevalent during the time period (of the) switch from leaded gasoline to unleaded gasoline.  Manufacturing engineering has now progressed to newer and better valve materials, better and longer lasting seat designs, improved spring pressure rates, and gasket material improvements, that what you all seem to want purport as a common issue is a very rare occurrence, if at all.  It seems you're relying on old and out of date experiences and impressions.

The greatest wear in a valve train occurs to the cam nose and rocker arm and cam follower assemblies. That this has been the most consistent source of reliability issues for the past thirty years is undeniable. 
The ever increasing use of roller rocker arms and tappets in automotive and motorcycle motors gives testament to the importance the industry lays to this issue of wear.

So you may be successful in smoking lesser informed individual into stampeding but you have a long way to go in convincing better informed and knowledgeable forum members that what you offer (on this subject) is still relevant.

***

[Madmike]

It would be foolish to deny the possibility of valve seat wear and the corresponding result from such wear but the reality of this was most prevalent during the time period (of the) switch from leaded gasoline to unleaded gasoline.  Manufacturing engineering has now progressed to newer and better valve materials, better and longer lasting seat designs, improved spring pressure rates, and gasket material improvements, that what you all seem to want purport as a common issue is a very rare occurrence, if at all.  It seems you're relying on old and out of date experiences and impressions.

The greatest wear in a valve train occurs to the cam nose and rocker arm and cam follower assemblies. That this has been the most consistent source of reliability issues for the past thirty years is undeniable.  
The ever increasing use of roller rocker arms and tappets in automotive and motorcycle motors gives testament to the importance the industry lays to this issue of wear.

So you may be successful in smoking lesser informed individual into stampeding but you have a long way to go in convincing better informed and knowledgeable forum members that what you offer (on this subject) is still relevant.

***

........ guess he flamed himself ..................

[Patrick]

I agree, Ricky just made our point for us so I thank him for that.. While I may be considered ' old and out of date ' my ' experiences and impressions ' come from doing this stuff on many varieties of vehicles over a long period of time and can certainly attest that some valve trains do lend themselves to ' loosening ' rather than ' tightening ' ,,but,, this is a Valkryie forum any we are talking about Honda flat/ boxer's and not any other engine..

[Madmike]

This is way past a hijack now so........

The way his response was worded I though that it was a broad based response on engines in general and not just the F6.  For interests sake we bore scope all of our compressor drivers annually- unless the heads are coming off -  to check for recession - it is particularly a problem on the Wauks. (roller cam follower, hydraulic lifter built into a push tube, and button style adjusters onto a bridge)  and some of the Whites.  These engines are fuelled by natural gas, are turbocharged and run in excess of 7500 hours annually, typically they go 30,000 plus hours between overhauls.  We also pull the cam doors and check the lobes for wear, the Wauks use a one piece cam and some of the Whites we have use bolt on lobes.

I guess that because this forum is focused on F6's and based on his industry wide experience what he may have meant to say is something like........

...Valve recession is not typically a problem with the F6.  Most times wear occurs on other components of the valve train and consequently you will usually see clearances getting wider rather than tighter with these engines.  Wear in any rotating assembly can be accelerated by various things including poor manufacturing standards, soft contact areas along with contaminated or improper lubricants or lubricant breakdown.  As well there can be mechanical problems such as loose adjusters etc.  ... or some such thing.

... my personal experience gained working on things that go round and round is that you want to keep an open mind to what your problem may be because as soon as you make the assumption that something "can't or won't" happen you can pretty much bet it will, already did or is in the process of...............  

It seems that most of the fellows here tend to tackle a variety of things (various repairs other than Valks) from a mechanical aspect,  I believe that transferring general knowledge is a good thing. and most can benefit by it -if not scrolling to the next response is fairly easy.  I was working with my buddy on his  1926 Nash Super 6 yesterday afternoon and we discussed an electronic problem on a 2009 Suburban while we were doing that - I like diversity and have used things that have been discussed on this forum in other areas.

[Robert]

I have a book on shop times and its really not well laid out, but its a Honda factory book it seems the correct time is 2.3 as close as I can tell.

[1fastbob]

You have a second.  (Maybe it's the hat?)

[MikeT]

Thank you Robert.  It appears that your information indicates the Honda flat rate to adust the valves is 2.3 hours.  That answers the first question asked by the original post.  Sure is funny how these get way off track.  It's like playing the "telephone game" when we were kids.

[Patrick]

'get off track' ??  Yep, you bet.. Its easy to do.. You try to be helpful with an answer and an explanation as simple as trying to let some one know that tighter valve [than spec] lash may not be heard and can be more harmful than valve clearance that is too loose and noisy and things just get carried away.. This certainly isn't the only subject this has happened to and it'll probably continue.. How does one go about changing the lash on an engine that has no provision for adjustment?? How's that for a hijack??  Lets see how far this goes..

[fstsix]

Shims, Well 2 bags of popcorn and some good laughs, and Ricky D, got to give credit for not runnin and hiding LOL!., but after seeing his reply on the (Carbs) Post by Triumph 69 he can sure dish it out also, No explanation needed  . Some of us have heard ticking from our motors and assumed it was valve lash, and have ran our valves and even changed oil brands, just to find it was the Pair valves lol !!. I have opened the lash on my valves by 2 thousands across the board to prevent valve float while setting the Rev limiter up to 8.000 on the Dyna, and after the removal or desmog i have never heard a tick or tack again,  The 1500 Valk does have a solid cam, unlike the 1500 wing Hydraulic cam. some think that constant adjusting is needed not always true, unless you hear something abnormal, and even with setting my Valve lash loose still no noise. http://www.badasscars.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=67/prd67.htm

[Patrick]

FstSix.. I had the camshafts reground one one Valk and was surprised at the valve springs.. I had to shim to get good height and pressure and even then I wasn't too impressed with them.. I never dared to run it that fast/high[ never even had the need to  ].. So my question is, did you do anything to or change the springs?? I know some folks spin these monsters beyond 7K but I never quite had the nerve.. I've got an automotive small block that consistently goes 9K and a couple big blocks that run 8K,but, just never felt comfortable enough with the Honda to spin it that fast, basically due to the springs .. 

[fstsix]

Patrick; your right they are weak, after talking with Lamont, and Bill @ Magnacharger, its not that i think that i should be winding her up this tight, its that the Boost keeps pulling so hard that you cant seem to shift fast enough to prevent the stock rev limiter from kicking in, it is like having 3 first gears, If i were going to get serious and drag race i would shim the springs, I worry more about the Sand cast pistons than the valve train. BTW booth these guys have had to do the same thing. it thinks it is a Rice Rocket now lol   just curious how much shim did you add ? i have also been looking for roller tip cam followers. no luck.  Andy from Viking had Springs but the bad economy has takin its toll.

[Patrick]

Boy, your really putting my memory to the test.. It was 10 years ago and I can't remember,but, almost every valve was a little different.. I do remember thinking that some may be shimmed too much,but, it seemed to work..I tried to keep the engine speed low enough to not have to worry about causing any damage as I didn't really want to have take it apart a second time[I must be getting lazy in my old age].. I'm a big fan of blowers and have used them for quite a while and I tried talking to LaMont and Bill about the blowers and neither was very talkative so I didn't get many answers to my questions.. I've always been concerned about the baffling in the blower manifolds.. The newer manifolds do look nicer than than the earlier model but I'm still not sure whether they are baffled or not and have always had thoughts about that being the reason for the stock piston failures..Anyway, I digress, I had a defective piston[improper assembly from Honda] which is the only reason I decided to played with that engine.. So I took the route of installing different pistons and camshafts.. It worked ,but, the engine was very argumentative and I think the blower route would have kept the bike more streetable..

[Robert]

I really never read the original post and didn't realize the second part of the question, that's pretty funny that it got off track that far, but heres what I found and recommend for belt changes. the belts like any belts dry out with age, the book recommends 100k on them but like I said they do dry out. So I would as part of a normal service replace them. The job is easy and no I dont know the book time on this or I'm not looking for it. The change usually makes the engine run smoother and quieter. Quite a few have noticed on the pulleys for the belts that the belt is leavening part of the rubber on the roller this is because the belt is dry and is starting to break down. Will the belt break probably not but the teeth on the belt do have a tendency to come off with the result being bent valves. Its quieter because the belt has enough oil in it to keep it lubricated when in contact with the pulleys. I have only heard one case of a belt causing bent valves on a Valk but after changing my own belt I was happy I did and mines a 01 with 40k. On a car belt I have many stories of them breaking and causing problems. The Valk has such a soft valve train that there is almost no stress on the belt. I couldn't resist book time is 1 hour to change the belts

[asfltdncr]

Does anyone know what the labor flat-rate is for adjusting the valves?  I had also thought about changing the belts while the front cover was off.  16,500 miles on a 98 standard.  Your thoughts about the belts. 

With those miles, and if it runs and idles smoothly, I wouldn't worry about it but would instead use those resources to look at the brakes and servicing the final drive if you don't have a history of the bike.  Perhaps a good time to de-smog or replace vac lines.maybe a new petcock?

[Patrick]

 "Perhaps a good time to de-smog or replace vac lines.maybe a new petcock? "

Now there is some good advice..

[YardBoy]

Just finished adjusting the valves, 4 of the intakes were a tad tight with one exhaust valve tight.  Had 2 exhaust valves a tad on the loose side.  I expect they would have been fine to have pressed on but I would have worried about not doing the preventative maintenamce.  Had the Honda shop replace the belts and the ones removed looked as good as the new ones.