Diff question!

[lee]

Beleave it or not:  If you look closely at the pinion cup you will see 2 holes in the back end.  Both are drilled through to the splines.  However one is not flat with the surface.  (drain)  The second hole is flat with the surface and mates with the pinion bearing inter race.  (not open to the final drive lube)  The third hole is drilled into the side of the cup at an angle. It is angled in the direction of the rotation of the cup.  (when moving forward it creates a PUMP)  This third hole sets behind the pinion seal and is open to the final drive lube.  When riding down the road a mist of final lube makes it way through the pinion bearing and is picked up by this (PUMP) and forced into the pinion cup.  Just take a real god look at a pinion cup.  Scratch one end or the other and say HE IS RIGHT.

[98valk]

My review of pages 12-12 and 12-13 of the technical/service manual;

Cutaway view of the pinion joint/cup (PJ), pinion gear shaft (PGS) and final drive on pg 12-12, clearly shows there is not an open path for gear oil to enter the PJ.
The pinion retainer has an oil seal which mates up to the open pinion gear bearing acting as a seal, which the end of the PJ slides into. It is required to pack grease into the seal lip cavity, page 12-13 prior to installing the PJ.
In my opinion, new grease should be installed every other tire change to make the seal last, esp., since its some work to replace it.
Since the seal is suppose to be packed with grease, those holes on the end of the PJ are relief holes for excess grease to have a place to go when fully installing the PJ which mates up to the inner race of the pinion gear bearing.
The holes are not for any type of pumping action of gear oil esp., since everything is designed to keep gear oil out of the PJ.

[turtle254]

My review of pages 12-12 and 12-13 of the technical/service manual;

Cutaway view of the pinion joint/cup (PJ), pinion gear shaft (PGS) and final drive on pg 12-12, clearly shows there is not an open path for gear oil to enter the PJ.
The pinion retainer has an oil seal which mates up to the open pinion gear bearing acting as a seal, which the end of the PJ slides into. It is required to pack grease into the seal lip cavity, page 12-13 prior to installing the PJ.
In my opinion, new grease should be installed every other tire change to make the seal last, esp., since its some work to replace it.
Since the seal is suppose to be packed with grease, those holes on the end of the PJ are relief holes for excess grease to have a place to go when fully installing the PJ which mates up to the inner race of the pinion gear bearing.
The holes are not for any type of pumping action of gear oil esp., since everything is designed to keep gear oil out of the PJ.

On a regular tire change, nobody is going to disassemble that far to grease the retainer bearing seal;
could those holes be a way to add new grease to the seal lip cavity with the pressure pushing the drive shaft back in? 

[SCain]

First question!!!

So today I had a nightmare getting g the rear wheel off as the spider was stuck fast on the diff.  Thiat ment taking the diff off the swing arm to get the rear wheel removed!!!
So drive shaft was stuck on the diff and after I got that out, diff oil came out of the socket where the drive shaft sat.  Is this normal???
If so what stops the grease getting washed away by normal operation?
What stops the moly grease getting into the diff?
Appreciate if any one can help!!!

Here is a tip I learned 18 years ago, remove the rear axle nut, slide the axle to the right just enough to swing the brake caliper bracket out of the way and to also remove the axle spacer. Now push the axle back through the left side of the swingarm. Slide the tire to the left and the flange should come out of the diff.

[RonW]

I believe the advantage is with the axle in place the weight of the wheel isn't resting on the bottom splines. You could block up the wheel then pull out the axle but the axle-in-place method makes for a square-er disconnect in all axis. Nothing scientific though. Whatever.

[hubcapsc]

I believe the advantage is with the axle in place the weight of the wheel isn't resting on the bottom splines. You could block up the wheel then pull out the axle but the axle-in-place method makes for a square-er disconnect in all axis. Nothing scientific though. Whatever.

I raise and sink my bike while removing the rear wheel. And I started going
to InZane as soon as I got my Valkyrie, where I saw Daniel Meyer take
his rear fender section off, so I do that too, I like it.

I can sink my bike to the right place where there's no tension on any of that
stuff and the last couple of times I just rolled my wheel in and out...

-Mike

[98valk]

[/quote]
On a regular tire change, nobody is going to disassemble that far to grease the retainer bearing seal;
could those holes be a way to add new grease to the seal lip cavity with the pressure pushing the drive shaft back in? 

[/quote]

great thought on what those holes are for.
so I pulled out two pinion joint/cups (PJ) I have off the shelf and checked those holes.

The hole with the side hole will provide grease into the seal.   For both of the ones I have this hole is the one that is at the end of a spline.  The other one doesn't have the side hole and is at the end of a spline valley. So that would be how to identify which hole to use to add some grease to the seal lip area.
so a grease gun needle fitting will work.
This should have been a maintenance item in the manual.

[lee]

The holes in the pinion cup ride behind the oil seal thats mounted in the pinion retainer and are open to the final drive oil.  Any grease you put in the holes will wind up in the final drive oil.
One of the holes in the back of the pinion cup is counter sunk and does not mate with the inner race of the pinion bearing.

[98valk]

The holes in the pinion cup ride behind the oil seal thats mounted in the pinion retainer and are open to the final drive oil.  Any grease you put in the holes will wind up in the final drive oil.

the cut-away drawing view shows that the pinion joint called that per the manual and the holes butt up to the inner race of the pinion bearing.  putting the grease in the hole which has the side hole will put grease into the oil seal lip area as required by the manual during assembly.
 The pinion joint holes do not have an open direct path into the final drive oil reservoir per the cut away drawing on pg 12-12.  please look at the drawing.

[turtle254]

The pinion joint holes fall behind the oil seal, in the area of where the factory has pack the oil seal cavity with grease(and repack with grease if you repair it), check the manual. The hole thru to a shallow valley on the back of cup now presses against inter race and leaves a very small slit, which now would be pressed(filled) with grease upon install the cup; leavening it almost impossible to wash out for gear oil to pass thru. The second thru hole is blocked when pressed against inter race and the slant hole lands right in the factory grease packed behind oil seal, with no way to get gear oil thru the hole to pinion joint. 
Wish the factory would explain this some where to ends this.

[hubcapsc]

no way to get gear oil thru the hole to pinion joint.

Gear oil pours (drips?) out of my final drive if I hold it
so that the pinion cup is pointing down.

-Mike

[turtle254]

no way to get gear oil thru the hole to pinion joint.

Gear oil pours (drips?) out of my final drive if I hold it
so that the pinion cup is pointing down.

-Mike

Good point ... have a hard time looking at the location and size and packed grease, it gets out to the cup. But if you tested this, then it does happen. Which means the holes will lube the cup.

[Rio Wil]

Looking at the picture in the manual 12-12 it begs a couple of questions.


The bearing the cup mates to is not a sealed bearing...thus gear lube will pass through
Pack the oil seal with grease.....why. the back of the seal is open to gear lube. maybe for first assembly
Not sure I have ever seen a bearing where the inner race is two pieces items 9 and 7
Does the cup bottom on the shoulder just below the threads or does it bottom on the bearing inner race
If it bottoms on the bearing race it woulkd likely block 2 of the holes if on the shoulder by the threads it could leave room for oil to pass

[turtle254]

"If it bottoms on the bearing race it woulkd likely block 2 of the holes if on the shoulder by the threads it could leave room for oil to pass"
The hole that's not drill on side has a relief(valley) so its not blocked when it bottoms out. The hole with the slant does not have this and will be blocked except for the slant drilled hole.   








[/quote]

[98valk]

no way to get gear oil thru the hole to pinion joint.

Gear oil pours (drips?) out of my final drive if I hold it
so that the pinion cup is pointing down.

-Mike

it is designed to be oil proof during normal operation when the final drive is installed correctly. meaning oil will not escape the final drive, it is not designed to be oil tight when holding it out of its normal installed position which would zero oil leakage.

this would be like the common water proof and water tight terminologies.

[hubcapsc]

it is designed to be oil proof during normal operation when the final drive is installed correctly.

Mine's broken or installed wrong then...

-Mike

[rug_burn]

First of all, we ARE talking about the pinion cup splines and the holes in the base of the pinion cup, right?

    I mean, you guys can see the pictures of those drive shaft splines posted above, right?   That's just how mine looks when I take it apart, too:   it's totally covered in the 90wt gear oil from the rear end.   I just did this about two weeks ago when I got a new rear tire (Metzler 888)
    So, if those holes don't go through between the pinion cup and the rear end, how do you explain the oil covered splines?  How did that 90wt gear oil get there?   You think the engineers had those holes put in those parts, using several machining operations for no particular reason?
    This is beginning to sound like political dialog.
    C'mon, get real.
    

[turtle254]

The reason for the discussion is, to pack the cup with grease or hope it gets lube with gear oil.

[rug_burn]

    Well,  it gets lubed pretty well, as seen in the photo.   Hope ain't got anything to do with it, you just gotta keep those holes open.
   

[98valk]

First of all, we ARE talking about the pinion cup splines and the holes in the base of the pinion cup, right?

    I mean, you guys can see the pictures of those drive shaft splines posted above, right?   That's just how mine looks when I take it apart, too:   it's totally covered in the 90wt gear oil from the rear end.   I just did this about two weeks ago when I got a new rear tire (Metzler 888)
    So, if those holes don't go through between the pinion cup and the rear end, how do you explain the oil covered splines?  How did that 90wt gear oil get there?   You think the engineers had those holes put in those parts, using several machining operations for no particular reason?
    This is beginning to sound like political dialog.
    C'mon, get real.
    

are u putting grease on the splines.  grease is oil held in suspension with thickeners. when grease is working the oil comes out to lubricate.
are u sure u are not seeing that oil from the grease and not the 90W oil?

[Rio Wil]

wonder if they are involved as coolant/chip flow/removal when cutting/broaching the splines in both ends?

[rug_burn]

98valk:
   No, that stuff is gear oil;  It isn't hard to tell them apart.   I mean, grease sticks to whatever you put it on, and tends to get dried out after a long time.      Gear oil drips off.   And when those holes are open the oil stays kind of fresh, and circulates, at least on mine.    I do use non-moly grease when I'm assembling it for the first time, on the splines, but do not pack the cup, again, to keep those holes open.

[98valk]

98valk:
   No, that stuff is gear oil;  It isn't hard to tell them apart.   I mean, grease sticks to whatever you put it on, and tends to get dried out after a long time.      Gear oil drips off.   And when those holes are open the oil stays kind of fresh, and circulates, at least on mine.    I do use non-moly grease when I'm assembling it for the first time, on the splines, but do not pack the cup, again, to keep those holes open.

IMO in accordance with the honda drawing (engineering drawings my schooling and career started with them) your oil seal has failed if that much gear oil is getting into that area. Honda designed the final drive so they don't mix, mixing them usually results in less wear protection and extra wear of the parts.

Grease isn't really drying out, once all of the oil is used for protection than what is left is the thickeners that hold the oil in suspension.

[rug_burn]

Okay-  it's your bike.   Maintain it as you see fit.

[98valk]

Someone needs to find out what those  holes are really for? Because every one  has a different ideal what Honda design them for.

Oil seal #31 is intended to keep oil retained inside the gear case.

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/motorcycle/2003/gl1500cd-a-valkyrie/final-driven-gear

The two holes in #13 Joint, Pinion allow air to escape when the greased driveshaft is inserted.  These do the same thing as the little hole in the shaft of a ballpoint pen.  When the splines on the driveshaft appear oily, the grease that was applied has heen worked from a paste into a thick liquid.

You may find a leaking seal when you remove the final drive.   But, notice the oil level plug is well below that pinion joint.  That level, plus the seal, were intended to keep oil retained in the gear case.

exactly.   

[Avanti]

Next time anyone removes their final drive, clean the inside of the pinion cup and set it on a table. Let it tip forward and rest on the pinion cup. See what happens.

[98valk]

Next time anyone removes their final drive, clean the inside of the pinion cup and set it on a table. Let it tip forward and rest on the pinion cup. See what happens.

it is designed to be oil proof during normal operation when the final drive is installed correctly. meaning oil will not escape the final drive, it is not designed to be oil tight when holding it out of its normal installed position which would be zero oil leakage.

this would be like the common water proof and water tight terminologies.

valkyrie engine right side up zero oil leakage turn it upside down and the oil will run out.

[Rio Wil]

IMO in accordance with the honda drawing (engineering drawings my schooling and career started with them) your oil seal has failed if that much gear oil is getting into that area. Honda designed the final drive so they don't mix, mixing them usually results in less wear protection and extra wear of the parts.

Grease isn't really drying out, once all of the oil is used for protection than what is left is the thickeners that hold the oil in suspension.
[/quote]

Failure of this seal would not cause oil to appear in the cup but rather it would leak out between the final drive and swing are mating surface.
Once the oil in the grease is used up what is left is the binders/thickeners and with the heat generated from spline friction becomes the dreaded "red rust" and severe wear.
I had 2 spline failures in the first 100K and none in the last 200K after using my own special sauce to augment the moly grease..
Looking at the parts breakdown, you can see there is there is a path for oil to travel through the unsealed pinion bearing, pool behind the seal and travel through one (or more) holes in the bottom of the cup and mix with the moly paste and make a wet  spline......

The real topic here is "why does using only moly paste and keeping the holes open" work sometimes (or most of the time) and then sometimes not work at all and the spline joint self destructs between 15K maint periods.

[lee]

There is NO OIL SEAL between the inside of the pinion cup and the 3 holes in the back of the cup.
The oil seal on the drive shaft seals the oil inside the cup.
Now I know why I never took my bike back to the dealer for repair.

[Pluggy]

Are we all using the exact grease that Honda specifies?  Service Manual page 12-19 says molybdenum disulfide grease.  At the beginning of the manual it defines this to be: Molybdenum disulfide grease contaning more than 3% molybdenum disulfide, NLGI #2.  This is not "any old grease".

An example:

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/jt-6/mystik-14-ounce-hi-temp-moly-grease/mys3/jt614moly?q=3%25+molybdenum+disulfide%2C+NLGI+%232&pos=8

I never found oil in the the pinion joint and the grease looks the same as it went in.  The grease has not broken down into oil.  You may want to try this if you have not been doing so. 

[hubcapsc]

Are we all using the exact grease that Honda specifies?  Service Manual page 12-19 says molybdenum disulfide grease.  At the beginning of the manual it defines this to be: Molybdenum disulfide grease contaning more than 3% molybdenum disulfide, NLGI #2.  This is not "any old grease".

An example:

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/jt-6/mystik-14-ounce-hi-temp-moly-grease/mys3/jt614moly?q=3%25+molybdenum+disulfide%2C+NLGI+%232&pos=8

I never found oil in the the pinion joint and the grease looks the same as it went in.  The grease has not broken down into oil.  You may want to try this if you have not been doing so. 

Did you weigh the molybdenum disulfide grease? 0.08 oz? All grease must not weigh the same amount,
but I weighed out 0.08 oz of molybdenum disulfide grease once and it wasn't very much. I don't know
the secret of the holes, but I'm confident that final drive fluid can flow through them.

-Mike

[Ramie]

Are we all using the exact grease that Honda specifies?  Service Manual page 12-19 says molybdenum disulfide grease.  At the beginning of the manual it defines this to be: Molybdenum disulfide grease contaning more than 3% molybdenum disulfide, NLGI #2.  This is not "any old grease".

An example:

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/jt-6/mystik-14-ounce-hi-temp-moly-grease/mys3/jt614moly?q=3%25+molybdenum+disulfide%2C+NLGI+%232&pos=8

I never found oil in the the pinion joint and the grease looks the same as it went in.  The grease has not broken down into oil.  You may want to try this if you have not been doing so. 

When it comes to lubing the final drive I found this useful.

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,23305.0.html

[98valk]

has been an ongoing debate since the GL1200.

https://www.goldwingfacts.com/threads/gear-oil-lubes-driveshaft-spline-at-final-drive.644153/page-3

ongoing with the shadows

https://www.hondashadow.net/threads/drive-shaft-spline-lube.121731/

[turtle254]

Well I'm going to try LocTite Krytox HyperLube, pn 29711 next time. Hope at that price it doesn't get washed off with gear oil.

[98valk]

That is SUPPOSED to happen. The two holes in the bottom of the pinion cup are a crude oil pump. One is to pull oil in, the other is a drain.

the final drive is not designed to pump oil into the spline coupling area. those holes are vents and nothing more.

We disagree. I'm ok with that.

the simplest pump is a centrifugal pump which uses an impeller, of which the pinion cup is not.
I'm not a pump design engineer, but I was around them, testing, drawing design, and installation inspections enough for 33 yrs to know how most pumps work and what isn't a pump.
The pinion cup holes are not some kind of pump.
have seen your idea posted in GL1200 and GL1500 forums.
https://www.plant-maintenance.com/articles/centrifugalpumps.pdf

[98valk]

Well I'm going to try LocTite Krytox HyperLube, pn 29711 next time. Hope at that price it doesn't get washed off with gear oil.

or u could try the 50/50 moly to grease ratio as recommended by pdf.  I used this last time.
https://assets.danfoss.com/documents/76142/AI152986482538en-000304.pdf

[Rio Wil]

the simplest pump is a centrifugal pump which uses an impeller, of which the pinion cup is not.

IMHO, the trailing edge of the angled hole in the cup acts as the impeller in this mysterious tiny centrifugal pump. While the cup is spinning at many rpm's going down the road, it is picking up tiny sips of oil, and transferring the oil to the hole in the cup.  Since one end of the hole is blocked by the bearing race, the oil migrates through to inside the pinion cup if the hole is not blocked by moly paste....not enough pressure from the tiny pump to clear a blocked hole.
Why some cups are dry, ie, only paste inside or 'red rust':
-paste blocks the hole
-not enough oil in the final drive for the angled hole to pick up
-maybe 75-90, 80-90 or straight 90 or synthetic lube makes a difference
Both holes can act as a vent/drain for installing a greased drive shaft and when installing the drive shaft paste seal and returning oil back to the final drive.
This seal occupies a rather tenuous spot on the drive shaft and is known to work its way out of the cup.
Many  have seen final drive oil that is darkened by moly from the cup....can't deny where it came from. Many have drive shaft splines that have a copious amount of drive oil mixed with the paste, ...can't deny that. Many have the paste in the same form and quantity as when lubed upon installation.....can't deny that. Then some have the dreaded red rust and severe wear that sparks all this discussion.....can't deny that. The above picture with a copious amount of lube on it did not get the oily component from the paste, the paste cannot possibly carry that much oil....or it wont be paste anymore. If all that oil came out of the paste it would violate a fundamental law....matter can not be created nor destroyed....emphasis on 'created'..
Gotta think beyond a myopic view of what constitutes a pump and that minor mixing of these two lubes will make them useless.

[Skinhead]

No offense to any posters here, but you should all quit trying to explain this design, and go for a ride.  Do your maintenance when required and ride.