Gas leaking from carbs... What now?

[Savago]

Gentlemen

I'm writing to report an issue that happened with the rescue Tourer (http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,125764.0.html).

I've last rode it to Sacramento (a nice 130 miles roundtrip) in late November, so near 2 months ago.

Since then the bike has being resting in my garage while we wait for better weather. I've added Stabil Marine to the empty gas tank and topped it off before letting the bike sleep for the winter.

Thursday we had a break on the rain and I decided to take the old girl for a ride. The bike had some trouble to start (it was left in a trickle charger and the battery is new) and I left her idling and warming up while I got my motorcycle gear (around 5 minutes I think).

When I returned, I found a puddle under the bike with what looks like gas.

I was able to record a video and found dripping coming from the carb bank area:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/F5WxmiX6KYqBvmBm7

It seems to be leaking from both sides (right and left).

I did some research and apparently there are a few possible reasons for these leaks:
a) Stuck floats.
b) Stuck float bowl needle.
c) Fuel rail o-rings.
d) Maybe petcock issues.

I left the bike seat and started it again around 24hs later but it is still leaking.

My first question is for people who had leaky fuel rail o-rings: after how many days did it fix itself?

I imagine if it is still leaking after 3 days, it is probably something else from the list above (a to d).

I'm also considering what are my options here. I already spent near $6K in this bike and having to rebuild its carbs would add even more on top of what I've spent already.

I noticed that there is a vendor associated with the VRCC that offers the service for rebuilding the carbs (https://valkyriecarbsandcustom.com/ols/products/your-carbs-rebuilt). Anyone has used them and could report if it went smoothly?

It had its carburators supposedly rebuilt back in 2021 by a Honda dealer, but let's be honest... I wouldn't be surprised if they botched the job.

I have to admit that I feel a bit disappointed with this Tourer bike. I think I managed to put less than 200 miles on it so far.
 

On the other hand, I went and tried to start my old I/S and it started on the first try. No leaks. Idling smoothly. Carbs to the best of my knowledge were never rebuilt since it left the Honda factory in Marysville, about 25 years ago. I know who is the keeper now.
 

A photo of the bike, notice the gas puddle:

[98valk]

tighten the end nuts of the threaded rods that hold the carbs together. use wooden dowel to lightly tap them together, then tighten, and repeat. usually only takes 32nd to eight turn on nuts and usually makes that metal crack noise.
I've had to do it twice in 82k miles, never leaks after that procedure.

[Mooskee]

Savago, either email me at mooskee@valkyriecarbsandcustom.com, or contact me through my website www.valkyriecarbsandcustom.com. I will be happy to talk you through some troubleshooting and if needed I can rebuild your carbs to like new. I typed out a whole long response, but when I posted it, it disappeared into the ethereal vapidity.

I rebuilt 24 set of carbs last year with 24 satisfied customers. I have a test engine and will balance them with a Digi Sync and tune them on the engine. The listing description on the website gives details of everything that is done.

We can get your ride running well again.

Dave

[Joe333x]

I am currently in the process of rebuilding my carbs, if you are a member of the Facebook Valkyrie group I just recently posted a video disassembling one. If the carbs were properly rebuilt and ALL the O rings were replaced it shouldn't be leaking. That said, anyone who owns a valk that has never had the carbs rebuilt should expect leaks very soon. We are talking about 20+ year old rubber O rings exposed to ethanol gas, heat, cold, ect. Almost every O ring I have removed from mine was hard as a rock and dry, many break as your remove them. The fuel rails were the worst. There are two very reputable places that you can ship your carbs to and will cost you around $1000 to be rebuilt. If you have the time, patience and equipment its not a terribly hard job, just tedious and time-consuming.

[98valk]

I am currently in the process of rebuilding my carbs, if you are a member of the Facebook Valkyrie group I just recently posted a video disassembling one. If the carbs were properly rebuilt and ALL the O rings were replaced it shouldn't be leaking. That said, anyone who owns a valk that has never had the carbs rebuilt should expect leaks very soon. We are talking about 20+ year old rubber O rings exposed to ethanol gas, heat, cold, ect. Almost every O ring I have removed from mine was hard as a rock and dry, many break as your remove them. The fuel rails were the worst. There are two very reputable places that you can ship your carbs to and will cost you around $1000 to be rebuilt. If you have the time, patience and equipment its not a terribly hard job, just tedious and time-consuming.

The O-rings Honda uses are Buna-N aka Nitrile material. they don't age/wear out unless left sitting in the sun.  Your reasons of failure due to things listed do not cause them to fail. The material does not like ozone and once installed/sealed inside the carb bodies are not exposed to that. Buna-N doesn't like 20+% ethanol, look up the material. Certain additives in fuel cleaners can affect them, such as the additives in seafoam which is a 1930s designed fuel additive.
As I stated the end nuts of the thru bolts get loose, tighten them.
bought my '98 as a left over in '00, only leaks I've ever had is the fuel rails due to loose nuts and I've had the fuel bowl covers off many many times due to re-jetting/tuning my head/cam/exhaust/intake mods and they done leak, ever.

[rug_burn]

Can't really tell from the video where the leak is coming from, but in any case it looks like you gotta pull the carbs which is a job in and of itself (if you haven't done it yet already).    This it will give you access to all those hoses which will need to be replaced at least in part.   Another part I've replaced on mine are those rubber pieces that go between the carbs and those curved chromed intake tubes.  On mine these were like hard plastic, but they were originally flexible rubber.  They don't cost much.
    The MIL-STD-1523A spec for Nitrile says basically that it has a shelf life of 40 quarters, or 10 years.   Service life is another matter.   

[98valk]

Can't really tell from the video where the leak is coming from, but in any case it looks like you gotta pull the carbs which is a job in and of itself (if you haven't done it yet already).    This it will give you access to all those hoses which will need to be replaced at least in part.   Another part I've replaced on mine are those rubber pieces that go between the carbs and those curved chromed intake tubes.  On mine these were like hard plastic, but they were originally flexible rubber.  They don't cost much.
    The MIL-STD-1523A spec for Nitrile says basically that it has a shelf life of 40 quarters, or 10 years.   Service life is another matter.   

I don't know what the carb/manifold insulators are made of. Also there are different grades of Buna-N , higher grades have a longer life. Honda uses the best available.  Shelf life is a different life span than in-service life. shelf life has to do with deformation and other parameters preventing the use of said product.
https://www.marcorubber.com/o-ring-shelf-life.htm
Previously MIL-HDBK-695E and MIL-STD-1523A were also references. SAE-ARP5316 and Industry shelf life recommendations:
 Unlimited FKM, FFKM, Silicone, Fluorosilicone, EPDM, Butyl, FEPM
 15 Years NBR Buna-N, HNBR, Chloroprene, Hypalon, ACM Polyacrylate

[Joe333x]

I am currently in the process of rebuilding my carbs, if you are a member of the Facebook Valkyrie group I just recently posted a video disassembling one. If the carbs were properly rebuilt and ALL the O rings were replaced it shouldn't be leaking. That said, anyone who owns a valk that has never had the carbs rebuilt should expect leaks very soon. We are talking about 20+ year old rubber O rings exposed to ethanol gas, heat, cold, ect. Almost every O ring I have removed from mine was hard as a rock and dry, many break as your remove them. The fuel rails were the worst. There are two very reputable places that you can ship your carbs to and will cost you around $1000 to be rebuilt. If you have the time, patience and equipment its not a terribly hard job, just tedious and time-consuming.

The O-rings Honda uses are Buna-N aka Nitrile material. they don't age/wear out unless left sitting in the sun.  Your reasons of failure due to things listed do not cause them to fail. The material does not like ozone and once installed/sealed inside the carb bodies are not exposed to that. Buna-N doesn't like 20+% ethanol, look up the material. Certain additives in fuel cleaners can affect them, such as the additives in seafoam which is a 1930s designed fuel additive.
As I stated the end nuts of the thru bolts get loose, tighten them.
bought my '98 as a left over in '00, only leaks I've ever had is the fuel rails due to loose nuts and I've had the fuel bowl covers off many many times due to re-jetting/tuning my head/cam/exhaust/intake mods and they done leak, ever.

They will eventually. Its why the good rebuild kits now use Viton-GF. A quote from Redeye

the original nitrile ones are very thin, and likely to snap when reinstalled because of their age and Honda's poor choice of material.

Every Valkyrie will need a carb rebuild at some point, its just a matter of when. If you take apart your carbs I guarantee you that you will find some of the O rings hard as rock.

[98valk]

I am currently in the process of rebuilding my carbs, if you are a member of the Facebook Valkyrie group I just recently posted a video disassembling one. If the carbs were properly rebuilt and ALL the O rings were replaced it shouldn't be leaking. That said, anyone who owns a valk that has never had the carbs rebuilt should expect leaks very soon. We are talking about 20+ year old rubber O rings exposed to ethanol gas, heat, cold, ect. Almost every O ring I have removed from mine was hard as a rock and dry, many break as your remove them. The fuel rails were the worst. There are two very reputable places that you can ship your carbs to and will cost you around $1000 to be rebuilt. If you have the time, patience and equipment its not a terribly hard job, just tedious and time-consuming.

The O-rings Honda uses are Buna-N aka Nitrile material. they don't age/wear out unless left sitting in the sun.  Your reasons of failure due to things listed do not cause them to fail. The material does not like ozone and once installed/sealed inside the carb bodies are not exposed to that. Buna-N doesn't like 20+% ethanol, look up the material. Certain additives in fuel cleaners can affect them, such as the additives in seafoam which is a 1930s designed fuel additive.
As I stated the end nuts of the thru bolts get loose, tighten them.
bought my '98 as a left over in '00, only leaks I've ever had is the fuel rails due to loose nuts and I've had the fuel bowl covers off many many times due to re-jetting/tuning my head/cam/exhaust/intake mods and they done leak, ever.

They will eventually. Its why the good rebuild kits now use Viton-GF. A quote from Redeye

the original nitrile ones are very thin, and likely to snap when reinstalled because of their age and Honda's poor choice of material.

Every Valkyrie will need a carb rebuild at some point, its just a matter of when. If you take apart your carbs I guarantee you that you will find some of the O rings hard as rock.

Viton has its pros and cons, its not 2x better than Buna-N in a carb application.   The additives in most fuel additives on the shelf will cause the Buna-n to harden. suggest people look up the chemicals that don't agree with Buna-N.  basic material engineering.  
https://www.allorings.com/o-ring-compatibility

""Buna o-rings:

    Excellent resistance to petroleum-based oils and fuels, silicone greases, hydraulic fluids, water and alcohols
    Low compression set
    High tensile strength
    Abrasion resistance
    Superior performance in ethanol/methanol blended gasoline""

""Viton® o-rings:

    High temperature resistance
    Outstanding chemical resistance
    Low compression set
    Ozone resistant
    Low outgassing""

""Buna offers great resistance to water, Buna o-rings are often used in marine applications as well. ""

https://www.applerubber.com/blog/how-to-make-the-right-choice-between-viton-and-buna-o-rings/

a post of mine about o-rings and chemicals, you decide.

https://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,123521.0.html