Learning to ride

[stormrider]

Been back on a bike for the past 4 years and putting some miles in. Something I haven't paid much attention to is head position when running through the twisties. I have been keeping my head in line with my body as I lean the bike. Seemed like the natural thing to do. I noticed something that seemed to be reccurrent with one of our famed twisties riders, Smokin Joe. Seems the pics I see of Joe while taming the Dragon, he keeps his head perpendicular to the horizon. (I guess that's the right way to describe it.) Anyway, I've been practicing keeping my head perpendicular, (straight up), as I take a curve. It helps me with keeping focused on my lines, (maybe). Not real sure how to describe it but it does make a difference for me. Anyway, wondering if anyone else has a particular way of holding their head while taking a turn or have you been like me in the past and not really paid attention? Also, it has been a chore to break the old habbit of letting my head lean as the bike leans but I like the new way I've been practicing.

[Michael K (Az.)]

My head seems to naturally keep upright as I lean into the twisties. For me, keeping my head and neck stiff with my body as I lean into a turn is like laying down on the couch. Strange analogy, but I feel more control upright than laying down. So, between keeping  head and neck upright and looking into the turn, sometimes as far as line of sight affords, works the best for me.

[X Ring]

When I learned to ride a few years ago, I was taught to keep my eyes level with the horizon.  Can't remember the exact reason but I think it had something to do with keeping you oriented.

Marty

[Chrisj CMA]

If you counter steer you will feel more natural to have your head straight up.  If you dont counter steer, its easier to get lazy and let your head lean into the turn.  BUT heres the other thing.....the main reason for keeping your head up is to allow you to look THROUGH, the turn not AT the turn

By counter steering I mean if you want to turn right you push the right grip down and the bike turns right, this also pushes you "away" kind of from the right side (keeps you in the centerline of the bike.

Then to get a good look through the turn you will almost always have your head up like Joe's...look where hes looking...through the turn.

What I am saying is sometimes its more important to know why something looks a certain way.  So not only to just keep your head in that position, to know why it seems to be in that position as well.

[bg]

been wondering the same thing. i get better line sight if i keep my head upright.
even tried to lean off the side into the turn and my head off to the side looking around the windshield.
how many do a weight shift when doing the twisties like the sport bikers do.
i've also tried keeping my body stationary and leaning the bike under me, kinda like putting my weight on the outside of the turn and turning the bike into the turn.
makes me a little afraid of highsiding if something goes amiss.
can't believe i've been riding and still have basic questions.
my msf instructor taught body shift to the opposite side of the turn, especially at slow speed.
i've watched a lot of the  police videos of them doing courses and i could not see any body shift.

[Hoser]

I always shift my weight into the curve and look through it, helps keep me on my line, and gives more clearance, although I don't usually drag parts on purpose.  Hoser

[bigdog99]

with the radio blasti n, my head kinda bobbles side to side. 

[..]

Been back on a bike for the past 4 years and putting some miles in. Something I haven't paid much attention to is head position when running through the twisties. I have been keeping my head in line with my body as I lean the bike. Seemed like the natural thing to do. I noticed something that seemed to be reccurrent with one of our famed twisties riders, Smokin Joe. Seems the pics I see of Joe while taming the Dragon, he keeps his head perpendicular to the horizon. (I guess that's the right way to describe it.) Anyway, I've been practicing keeping my head perpendicular, (straight up), as I take a curve. It helps me with keeping focused on my lines, (maybe). Not real sure how to describe it but it does make a difference for me. Anyway, wondering if anyone else has a particular way of holding their head while taking a turn or have you been like me in the past and not really paid attention? Also, it has been a chore to break the old habbit of letting my head lean as the bike leans but I like the new way I've been practicing.

Watch the pros. Vertical head. I've done it since I was 14 years old.

[..]

i've also tried keeping my body stationary and leaning the bike under me, kinda like putting my weight on the outside of the turn and turning the bike into the turn.

You should lean off the bike a little and keep the bike upright.

[Gryphon Rider]

I have leaned with my head in line with my body and the bike until a few (3?) years ago, when I heard someone say it helped his confidence to keep his eyes level to the ground.  I tried it and found it to be true, I had more confidence and better focus.  I don't shift my weight on the Valk for either slow or fast corners, just because it's such a large heavy bike and I'm happy with the way it handles with my butt in the seat.  Shifting your weight to the inside allows the bike to stay more upright, thus keeping the tire tread on the pavement and hard bits off the pavement.  In slow speed manoeuvres, leaning the bike into the turn while keeping your body upright or leaned the other way (often by standing up on the pegs) decreases the turning radius compared to not shifting your weight from the centre of the bike, given that the handlebars are turned the same amount (e.g. full lock).

[CanadianViking]

great information in this thread!

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

 To me the most important thing to do.......ALWAYS look where you want to go .

[fudgie]

Like Joe said. Look where you want to go. If you dont, you will go where you dont want to go. When I rodeo'd they said, pick a spot on the bulls head and dont look away. If you looked away, your down.

[BigAlOfMD]

By counter steering I mean if you want to turn right you push the right grip down and the bike turns right, this also pushes you "away" kind of from the right side (keeps you in the centerline of the bike.

http://www.daytonamotorcycletraining.com/counter-steering.htm

When you push the handle bar grip FORWARD - (go right push right grip - go left push left grip) in the direction you want to go it destabilizes the motorcycle and forces it into a lean.

Counter steering:
"Press: to innate motorcycle lean, press forward on the the handgrip in the direction of the turn. This is referred to as countersteering. (the front wheel briefly points in the opposite direction of turn) ".MSF handbook Page 21 4th paragraph.


Chris, the reason pushing down works on some bikes is the down curve of the handle bar. So by pushing down on a down curved bar, you actually push forward.

And you can steer in either direction with just one hand.
Without a throttle control, you need to keep your right hand on the grip so release the left grip and:
1. Turn right by pushing the right bar forward.
2. Turn left by pulling the right bad backward.

[Spirited-6]

STORMRIDER, why did you start this ???     I almost ran off the road watching what I was doing.    I saw a groundhog the other day on the side of the road, looked at him and killed the guy. 

[stormrider]

I know. Had a rabbit run out in front of me last Sunday. Last night, had a red fox run out diagonally heard the Stabel, side stepped, then hit the woods. Saw that big ole dragon breathin down his neck.

Great info guys. Like Chris said, I learned to counter steer right after starrting to ride again. But it seemed I was letting my head stay atraight with my body. Then I got to noticing in some pics and videos, i.e. Joe and others that their head stayed parallel with the horizon. So I been practicing. It takes a concious effort to change. But I really like the results. I fell a lot more confident through those suprise curves. Like Sat. coming back from Talledaga. Was on US 82 coming out of Union Springs near Eufaula. Straight as an arrow for many miles, then wham-o, hit some small hills with 50 mph curves. Had been doing in excess of that. Liked not tapping the brakes and being able to hold a better line. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions, responses.

See ya'll at Cheaha.

[Michael K (Az.)]

It's always good to do a little info refresh now and again.
Now, if I can just remember to put the sidestand down when I'm planning to exit Valkyrie!

[Black Dog]

After riding since I've been 8 years old (dirt bikes on my grandma's farm), I'm about to turn 54, I decided it was time to take a formal class.  I just finished the MSF riders course last weekend.

It's amazing how many bad habits I've picked up over the years.  Two things that stood out in the class, both involved head position...  Slow manuvers...  Man, they thought we were owls with the way they told us to look where we wanted to go (by the end of the course, I was doing a double U-Turn in a 12' X 20' box), really looking back over the shoulder.  Then, turns at speed, again, look where ya wanna go...  I feel a bit more confident at just picking up a few nice pointers.

Never too old to learn, and never too proud to be taught 

Black Dog

[stormrider]

Talking bout old habbits. Used to ride horses a lot. Was always told to mount from the horses left side. He would spook if you mount on the right side. Well, went to a clinic and found out why and how that got started. First of all, the horse doesn't care which side you mount from. Seems knights in shining armor, sword yielding, horse mounted cavaliers, calvary, etc. were taught to wear their sword on their left side to be able to draw with their right hand. If he tried to mount from the right side the sword would strike the horses arse and spook the horse. So, in unison, they would all mount from the left side. I've tried mounting from either side. My horses could care less. Amazing how habits are passed on from one generation to another.
I almost always mount my bike from the right side but will dismount to the left. Go figure. And am enjoying practicing the head straight up and down thing. And thanks to all the advice on looking where I'll be in the next few seconds. Been doing that but helps to have a reminder.

[MP]

Same reason why mens shirts have the buttons on the side they do.  Since most are right handed, you could undo your overshirt, coat, what ever, with your left hand, while your right holds your weapon.

MP

[Westernbiker]

By counter steering I mean if you want to turn right you push the right grip down and the bike turns right, this also pushes you "away" kind of from the right side (keeps you in the centerline of the bike.

http://www.daytonamotorcycletraining.com/counter-steering.htm

When you push the handle bar grip FORWARD - (go right push right grip - go left push left grip) in the direction you want to go it destabilizes the motorcycle and forces it into a lean.

Counter steering:
"Press: to innate motorcycle lean, press forward on the the handgrip in the direction of the turn. This is referred to as countersteering. (the front wheel briefly points in the opposite direction of turn) ".MSF handbook Page 21 4th paragraph.


Chris, the reason pushing down works on some bikes is the down curve of the handle bar. So by pushing down on a down curved bar, you actually push forward.

And you can steer in either direction with just one hand.
Without a throttle control, you need to keep your right hand on the grip so release the left grip and:
1. Turn right by pushing the right bar forward.
2. Turn left by pulling the right bad backward.

CORRECT!!!! The pushing of the left or right grip will automatically make the bike lean into the turn. You do NOT lean a motorcycle with body weight, you steer the motorcycle with forward pressure on the the left or right grip depending on the direction you want to go. The bike will lean itself, the more you push the farther over and tighter she will turn. I have seen way to many riders leaning their bike with body weight, now of course this is street riding and not race course riding. No reason to shift body weight unless you are racing on a track be it street or dirt, right Jabba, my dirt biking friend.

[Willow]

  CORRECT!!!! ...  You do NOT lean a motorcycle with body weight, you steer the motorcycle with forward pressure on the the left or right grip depending on the direction you want to go.

It's an interesting theory, but a little too exclusive.

I'm a big fan of counter steering, especially at speed.  That said, I've ridden a Valkyrie hands free for fifteen miles straddling the New Mexico / Texas state line.  That particular time the road was two laned with multiple gentle sweepers. 

If one canNOT lean a motorcycle with body weight, how does one counter steer without touching the grips?     

[Michael K (Az.)]

  CORRECT!!!! ...  You do NOT lean a motorcycle with body weight, you steer the motorcycle with forward pressure on the the left or right grip depending on the direction you want to go.

It's an interesting theory, but a little too exclusive.

I'm a big fan of counter steering, especially at speed.  That said, I've ridden a Valkyrie hands free for fifteen miles straddling the New Mexico / Texas state line.  That particular time the road was two laned with multiple gentle sweepers. 

If one canNOT lean a motorcycle with body weight, how does one counter steer without touching the grips?     

  Spinnaker? 

[Westernbiker]

 CORRECT!!!! ...  You do NOT lean a motorcycle with body weight, you steer the motorcycle with forward pressure on the the left or right grip depending on the direction you want to go.

It's an interesting theory, but a little too exclusive.

I'm a big fan of counter steering, especially at speed.  That said, I've ridden a Valkyrie hands free for fifteen miles straddling the New Mexico / Texas state line.  That particular time the road was two laned with multiple gentle sweepers.  

If one canNOT lean a motorcycle with body weight, how does one counter steer without touching the grips?      

The correct way is to have both hands on the grips and push in the direction you want to go. I can steer a cage with my knee but is that the correct way? You can set up as many road blocks as you want on this subject but it still does not override the correct way. Please don't confuse the riders that may not know.

[Michael K (Az.)]

I respectfully withdraw my previous post regarding the use of a wind sail to assist steering a motorcycle. Confusion was not my intent.

[Willow]

  You can set up as many road blocks as you want on this subject but it still does not override the correct way. Please don't confuse the riders that may not know.  

With all due respect (interpret that as you wish) I would submit that by overstating you will be responsible for more confusion than I.  

Counter steering is indeed a very large part of controlling the direction of a motorcycle, but it is not all there is.

For you riders that don't know, practice counter steering.  It will help you understand.  Practice looking where you want to go.  That's even more important than understanding counter steering.  The bike takes input from almost everything you do.  The more you learn to do what you do with intention the better rider you will be.   Mostly, don't be confused by people who tell you there's only one way you CAN control the motorcycle.

   

[Westernbiker]

  You can set up as many road blocks as you want on this subject but it still does not override the correct way. Please don't confuse the riders that may not know.  

With all due respect (interpret that as you wish) I would submit that by overstating you will be responsible for more confusion than I.  

Counter steering is indeed a very large part of controlling the direction of a motorcycle, but it is not all there is.

For you riders that don't know, practice counter steering.  It will help you understand.  Practice looking where you want to go.  That's even more important than understanding counter steering.  The bike takes input from almost everything you do.  The more you learn to do what you do with intention the better rider you will be.   Mostly, don't be confused by people who tell you there's only one way you CAN control the motorcycle.

   

I did not say there was ONLY one way, do not put words in my mouth. I said the counter steer will automatically lean the bike and make it turn. You just want to lean a bike with body weight to try and make a corner with out countersteer? Sure it will do that but not nearly as effictive and weather you realize it or not, you put pressure on the grips when doin this anyway. Yes there are many factors to making it go where you want it to go, line of site ect.... Again, all I said was the bike will lean over and turn with the input of pressure on the correct the grip and without transfer of body weight. I have ridden bikes since I was 8 years old with 15 years of motocross and desert racing experience. Totally different than riding street or racing street. Racing street and any type of dirt bike riding or racing requires transfer of body weight to make the bike and you competitive, along with many other factors, including gyroscopics of front and rear wheel when airborn and braking or accelerating while in the air. For the average (nonracing) street rider tranfer of body weight is not required (if operating the bike with both hands on the grips) You want to tranfer weight while average street riding? be my guest, it dose not matter to me, just not required and that is all I said to begin with.

[Mickey Runie]

..., I've ridden a Valkyrie hands free for fifteen miles straddling the New Mexico / Texas state line.  That particular time the road was two laned with multiple gentle sweepers. 

I once did a 38 mile stretch of US69 hwy from Pittsburg, KS to somewhere north of Fort Scott using only body weight to get my Yamaha to go where I wanted it to go - WHILE RESTING COMFORTABLY ON THE REAR PASSENGER SEAT. (I was a LOT younger then)

What's it called when I pick a stretch of deserted hwy and begin weaving between the yellow dotted passing lines (not cool, and slightly illegal, but I only do it if there are other cars/witnesses any where near)?   If I'm traveling greater than 65 mph, I sometimes take two stripes at a time.   I feel as if that helps me "feel" the bike and it's cornering capabilities.   I can't get my wife to do it at any speed.  Sometimes, she seems too stiff, and thereby a little slow when we get to a nice twisty stretch of hwy.  I thought the exercise would help her get the hang of turning the bike left, right, left, right - you get the idea.  Maybe all I'm accomplishing is premature wear on the tires?

[Cruzen]

I don't know if anybody suggested this but you may want to get the "Ride Like a Pro" ride on the Dragon DVD.  They demonstrate and explain some of the techniques you are asking about. 

Some of the video footage on this DVD was produced by a guy known as Yellow Wolf.  This guy does some great video runs on his yellow 1800cc Goldwing.  They actually show footage of riders crashing and some stop action of a rider who ran head on into a vehicle because he was not looking through the curve but was looking at the approaching vehicle. 

I have a couple of their DVD's an have hosted several parties for bike friends.  After watching the DVD's and before hitting the tap we go out to a local parking lot and try some of the techniques presented.  It's amazing how many of my more experienced riders cannot do some of the basic "Ride Like a Pro" exercises.  If you cannot turn your Valk in a 11 ft radius (22 ft diameter) then you need to watch these DVD's.

[Willow]

I did not say there was ONLY one way, do not put words in my mouth. I said the counter steer will automatically lean the bike and make it turn.

 CORRECT!!!! The pushing of the left or right grip will automatically make the bike lean into the turn. You do NOT lean a motorcycle with body weight, you steer the motorcycle with forward pressure on the the left or right grip depending on the direction you want to go.  

Far be it from me to put words into someone's mouth.  Perhaps I made the mistake of interpreting the words for what they mean rather than what you intended.  The words in the quote are yours.  The color is mine, for emphasis.

I'm finished here as I'd rather not continue to hijack someone's valuable thread.

As to your riding since you were eight, you obviously have a LOT more experience than do I.  I bow to your most apparently superior expertise and confess openly, as I did in my original post, that counter steering works.  I used it even before I knew what it is and I continue to utilize counter steering almost every day.

Now and then I choose otherwise.  I've found success there also.    

[Westernbiker]

I did not say there was ONLY one way, do not put words in my mouth. I said the counter steer will automatically lean the bike and make it turn.

 CORRECT!!!! The pushing of the left or right grip will automatically make the bike lean into the turn. You do NOT lean a motorcycle with body weight, you steer the motorcycle with forward pressure on the the left or right grip depending on the direction you want to go.  

Far be it from me to put words into someone's mouth.  Perhaps I made the mistake of interpreting the words for what they mean rather than what you intended.  The words in the quote are yours.  The color is mine, for emphasis.

I'm finished here as I'd rather not continue to hijack someone's valuable thread.

As to your riding since you were eight, you obviously have a LOT more experience than do I.  I bow to your most apparently superior expertise and confess openly, as I did in my original post, that counter steering works.  I used it even before I knew what it is and I continue to utilize counter steering almost every day.

Now and then I choose otherwise.  I've found success there also.    

I am not going to get into the interpertation of what I said, what I meant, how you read it or how you interperted it. Obviously we agree to disagree and that is fine. It is an opinion on my part that was (for lack of a better word right now) attacked, and yes I will defend it on a basis of what I have learned through out my motorcycling life.
And please don't patronize me either with my so called superior expertise as those again are words I did not speak. All I did was just use what I do know to make and form an opinion which was posted here.

[Relax]

I just bought and read this book....which is about this discussion..  technical skill on riding at low and higher speed... 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ride-Like-Pro-Book-/260512990561?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item3ca7c8c561

[Cruzen]

I just bought and read this book....which is about this discussion..  technical skill on riding at low and higher speed... 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ride-Like-Pro-Book-/260512990561?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item3ca7c8c561

As I have stated above.  They produce a great series of DVD's and since their focus is cruiser bikes they focus on the skills necessary to ride a cruiser.  While Jerry now rides a Hardley, in their early DVD's they show several people on Goldwings and a Valk Interstate.

Now, the question is.  Did you do any of the suggested practice patterns.  How tight of a radius can you turn your Valk?  Any scrapes on your ride??  How about picking up your Valk using their techniques?

[iliveforcurves]

Re:  how you hold your head when cornering

The way I explain it is you keep your head level when cornering on a bike, and you lean your head into the direction of the turn when driving a car.

[Valker]

The Ride Like A Pro series (from the parts I've seen) look very good. As he mentions: technique and practice. Now to answer your question:The radius that I've achieved on the Valk Tourer I ride is 9.5 feet. I can do a 19 foot circle regularly with an occasional fluke to about 18 feet. If you've taken an MSF BRC, my Valk will do easy circles in the smallest, solid u-turn area, either direction. Picking it up? I don't know their technique, but I've found it easier not to drop it over! 

[Cruzen]

The Ride Like A Pro series (from the parts I've seen) look very good. As he mentions: technique and practice. Now to answer your question:The radius that I've achieved on the Valk Tourer I ride is 9.5 feet. I can do a 19 foot circle regularly with an occasional fluke to about 18 feet. If you've taken an MSF BRC, my Valk will do easy circles in the smallest, solid u-turn area, either direction. Picking it up? I don't know their technique, but I've found it easier not to drop it over! 

That's great.  On my Interstate I've gotten the 19.5 circle down consistantly with an occasional 19 footer but can't get down to the 18 ft.  Ironically I cannot get below 20 foot on my Magna.  The throttle is just too sensitive.  I have even tried it in second gear with a lot of clutch slippage.

[BigAlOfMD]

I'm a big fan of counter steering, especially at speed.  That said, I've ridden a Valkyrie hands free for fifteen miles straddling the New Mexico / Texas state line.  That particular time the road was two laned with multiple gentle sweepers. 

If one canNOT lean a motorcycle with body weight, how does one counter steer without touching the grips?      [/i]

I've ridden the Valkyrie many miles with no hands even changing lanes.
The tire profile/Pressure, rake, trail, COG and Body weight vs Bike weight and side wind all affect the steering.
Valkyrie Rake/trail: 32.3 degrees/5.98 in.

Keith Code created what he calls the No BS Bike which he claims can't be turned with no hands.
it has very little rake: Rake (degrees)  24, Trail (in/mm)  4.1 / 104.1

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

Even so, I bet this guy could make it do tricks

World Ducati Week: Stunt Champion Christian Pfeiffer	powered by Aeva

[SlowRoad]

I was told a few years ago to point my nose where I wanted to go. Same as looking thru the curve, just a different way of saying it I guess.  Works for me.

[hubcapsc]

If you dont counter steer...

... you'll go sailing off the road into the woods ... 

I think the head position thing is a side effect of looking ahead into the turn and it
probably looks different on different people. The important thing is that you're doing it.


The Solution ...... Make a bike that has two sets of bars. One set as normal, the other set would be solid mounted to the frame so they were not connected to and did not rotate the forks...

At this writing, we have run nearly 100 riders of all experience levels on this double barred bike. It has made believers out of every single one in the actuality of countersteering of course. At 20 to 35 mph, no matter how much you tug or push or pull or jump around on the bike, the best we saw was that the bike wiggled and became somewhat unstable. Did it turn? Not really. Would it turn at higher speed? Absolutely not...

                                    http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/countercode.htm

-Mike

[Jabba]

Wow... How'd I miss this one.

I try to look thru the turns.  I know how to weight shift, but don't do it much.

As far as dirtbikes are concerned, you spend so much time up on your feet, that how I shift my weight and such was totally lost to me.  I think I weight shift there a lot more.  I was 300 lbs on a 200 lb dirtbike, vs 300 lb on a 800 lb valk.  You can REALLY throw a dirtbike around.  And, at least for me, I fall off it reasonably often too.

I still attribute several valk non-crashed to my dirtbike experience.  When traction fails... and weird crap happens, my core motor skills react before my brain even SEEMS to register it.  There have been 3 or 4 times where I have lost traction significantly, and rode it out before I knew I was in trouble. 

IMO dirtbikers make better street riders.  That's not a RULE however.  Just a trend.  I do not count myself as one of the best riders on this board.  I don't push that hard.  But i THINK that on average, guys with a lot of time in the dirt, crash less often those those without it.  YMMV

Jabba