Trouble with Dialing in Front Suspension

[TearlessTom]

I've had my Valk for almost two years now. Shortly after I got it I replaced shocks with Progressives and the front springs with the Progressives springs.  It improved the ride quite a bit.

Recently I had developed the dreaded fork seal leak on the right side. (Previous owner had repaired one once before I can only assume it was the left)  Anyway I replaced the seals and while I was in there I replaced the steering head bearings as I had noticed a bit of wobble starting when decelerating.

Steering is MUCH MUCH crisper now and she turns much easier. Took a bit of getting used to but my problem is I am having trouble dialing in the springs this time.

I replaced the fluid to the manuals recommended level and it is like riding on a washboard or rigid.  It will beat you to death, So I pulled a little of the fluid out, Ride is better but still a bit rough. siphoned a bit more out and still better but rough at LOW SPEED.  At HIGHWAY SPEED it is relatively smooth.

I have removed 10cc,
Removed 10cc
Removed 10cc
Added 15cc
Removed 7cc from each.



Before it was smooth at both HIGHWAY AND SLOW SPEED!

I can’t figure it out if I have removed too much and am getting the bounce from not enough damping and the springs are bouncing or if have not removed enough and the damper is not doing its job.

Why would it be smoother the faster it goes or rougher the slower it goes?

Any and all theories and suggestions are welcome.
Thanks,
Tom

Oh by the way when I removed and drained the forks the right leaking  one was near empty and the  left was about one inch above recommended level and it was a little mushy  but smooth.

[DFragn]

Your fluid variances are not effecting the springs or the rebound and compression dampeners. The only compression you are affecting is the quantity of air in the tubes.

Other than that, I would ask where the nut is positioned on the threaded dampener rods that the caps thread to? It is a sort of internal dampening adjustment besides fluid levels. I believe the OEM nut position was about 13 threads from the top. Which is about the mid-point. Don't raise them much higher [something is needed to thread into the caps], but you could take 'em down to the bottom of the threads.
I would check that and bury them to the bottom [if they're not already there] and then take your fluid levels back to spec or reduce by an ounce for the stiffer Progressives.

I've been into my fork tubes many times and found this to be best for me with the Progressive springs.

[Kilroy]

Thanks for the information.  I replace the front springs with progressive awhile ago.  Fluid levels are where they were spected.  I have noticed the same thing, slower speeds and it is bumpy at highway speeds very smooth.   I did not know about the caps.  Thanks
Kilroy

[TearlessTom]

Your fluid variances are not effecting the springs or the rebound and compression dampeners. The only compression you are affecting is the quantity of air in the tubes.

Other than that, I would ask where the nut is positioned on the threaded dampener rods that the caps thread to? It is a sort of internal dampening adjustment besides fluid levels. I believe the OEM nut position was about 13 threads from the top. Which is about the mid-point. Don't raise them much higher [something is needed to thread into the caps], but you could take 'em down to the bottom of the threads.
I would check that and bury them to the bottom [if they're not already there] and then take your fluid levels back to spec or reduce by an ounce for the stiffer Progressives.

I've been into my fork tubes many times and found this to be best for me with the Progressive springs.

I have the R tube threaded all the way down.

[Kilroy]

Did that help the ride??

[TearlessTom]

Some yes, Turned out my rear shocks were heading south also. I have replaced them with a set of Progressive 440's. I took it out for a short ride and it is definitely better so I pulled the front apart again to make sure I had the correct and even amount of fluid in the forks from all the adding and subtracting and too replace the front wheel bearings. But that is a whole ‘nother story.
http://www.valkyrieforum.com/bbs/index.php/topic,18241.0.html

As soon as I get the correct front wheel bearings in (hopefully tomorrow) I will be able to put it all back together to see where we sit. (pardon the pun)

[X Ring]

Tom,  what fluid are you using?  I've got Progressive springs with the Honda fluid and it rides beautifully.  I'm also running I/S shocks on the back of my Tourer.  If you want to wrench together sometime, let me know.

Marty

[RLD]

I know Progressive seems to be the consensus here, but I had them (front springs and rear shocks) on the previous bike and did not like them. The ride was brutal. Never experimented with any settings though except the rear set as soft as possible. The forks seemed to have zero give on small bumps and expansion grooves. It probably doesn't help that riding double, we don't hit 300 lbs. The bike was totaled before I could "go back in" and try something else.

[petevenne]

Added Progressive springs last year and front end rode like a buckboard rechecked Fork oil level twice and dropped to 5Wgt.. Never gave a second thought to damper rods height just put them back to where they were .. Guess I'll try again and drop them all the way....

[Valkflyer]

I replaced the fluid to the manuals recommended level and it is like riding on a washboard or rigid.  It will beat you to death, So I pulled a little of the fluid out, Ride is better but still a bit rough. siphoned a bit more out and still better but rough at LOW SPEED.  At HIGHWAY SPEED it is relatively smooth.

I have removed 10cc,
Removed 10cc
Removed 10cc
Added 15cc
Removed 7cc from each.



Before it was smooth at both HIGHWAY AND SLOW SPEED!

I can’t figure it out if I have removed too much and am getting the bounce from not enough damping and the springs are bouncing or if have not removed enough and the damper is not doing its job.

Why would it be smoother the faster it goes or rougher the slower it goes?

Any and all theories and suggestions are welcome.
Thanks,
Tom
[/i]

Tom,
I had the same issue after going to Progressives in the front.  I can't tell you the number of times I adjusted the oil levels, tried different viscosities, and brands.  I even went as far as drilling an additional hole in one of my damping tubes as an experiment. ( I convinced myself that worked...for one or two rides....not for long though....a dumb move, I had to replace it).  And yes I did the 440 rear shocks and replaced the Steering Head bearings with slight improvement, but that was not enough.

Well what it finally came down to was something that I wasn't doing properly.  Both the Progressive instructions and the Clymer's manual does not share the proper way to get the air out of the damping rod.  You've got to do what the Honda manual tells you.

Try this and I'm guessing your problems solved:

FRONT WHEEL/SUSPENSION/STEERlNG
Bleed the air follows:
1.Extend the fork. Cover the top of the fork tube with your
hand and compress the fork slowly.
2. With the damper rod pushed fully in, pour the recommend-
ed fork oil into the damper rod until a little flows out of the
end of rod.
3. Pump the fork tube and rod slowly 8-1 0 times.
4. Add additional fluid up the specified capacity and repeat
step 3.

Seems to simple but let me tell you this made all the difference.  Go to the Honda Manual for Pics if your not visualizing this.

Remember also for fluid level, no less than 5.5 inches of air from the top of the fork tube to oil level. (This per Progressive).

[PAVALKER]

I did my fork springs a year or two ago I think and replaced seals, bushings etc, along with Progressive Springs and AMSOIL suspension fluid.  Progressive recommends a heavier weight fluid on the Valk I believe, but I used the Medium AMSOIL.  I did fill a little bit more than recommended actually and it rides great, solo or 2 up. Granted... I am in PA and we have the worst roads around (some of you know this) and occasionally when hitting pot holes (not the smoking kind mind you), I do feel and hear it.  When coming up to a stop light where large trucks/trailers stop and it's turned into a washboard.... I do feel and hear it (and have to check some tooth fillings).... but on most other roads.... it's great, and much better than it was stock.  I believe the bleeding of air from the damper rod is key as well. 

On a side note... how many have noticed 2 different fluids in their forks....  one with what appears to be red trans fluid and the other heavy oil or gear oil??  I noticed that on both the VTX and Valk.... 

[TearlessTom]

Tom,
I had the same issue after going to Progressives in the front.  I can't tell you the number of times I adjusted the oil levels, tried different viscosities, and brands.  I even went as far as drilling an additional hole in one of my damping tubes as an experiment. ( I convinced myself that worked...for one or two rides....not for long though....a dumb move, I had to replace it).  And yes I did the 440 rear shocks and replaced the Steering Head bearings with slight improvement, but that was not enough.

Well what it finally came down to was something that I wasn't doing properly.  Both the Progressive instructions and the Clymer's manual does not share the proper way to get the air out of the damping rod.  You've got to do what the Honda manual tells you.

Try this and I'm guessing your problems solved:

FRONT WHEEL/SUSPENSION/STEERlNG
Bleed the air follows:
1.Extend the fork. Cover the top of the fork tube with your
hand and compress the fork slowly.
2. With the damper rod pushed fully in, pour the recommend-
ed fork oil into the damper rod until a little flows out of the
end of rod.
3. Pump the fork tube and rod slowly 8-1 0 times.
4. Add additional fluid up the specified capacity and repeat
step 3.

Seems to simple but let me tell you this made all the difference.  Go to the Honda Manual for Pics if your not visualizing this.

Remember also for fluid level, no less than 5.5 inches of air from the top of the fork tube to oil level. (This per Progressive).

I did notice when I took it back down that the fluid was much lower than I expected it to be. I had pumped the damper several times before and with it completely covered with the oil I don't understand how it could still have had air in it. We will see when it goes back on the road soon.
 I am hoping to get my wheel bearing seals in tomorrows mail so I can put it all back together and we will what is what. I had mistakenly ordered the 6004 bearing when I needed the 5402 bearings. I have the level at 6  to 6 1/4 inch. I used 8 weight oil.

[TearlessTom]

On a side note... how many have noticed 2 different fluids in their forks....  one with what appears to be red trans fluid and the other heavy oil or gear oil??  I noticed that on both the VTX and Valk.... 

I did notice that I just attributed it too one side being more dirty than the other.