Royal Purple oil....

[John Schmidt]

Decided to try Royal Purple this one time for the upcoming InZane trip. Picked up four qts. of 10w/40 without the Energy Conserving label in the bottom of the circle so I should be alright. Any comments re. my choice....that happened to be the only blend w/o the energy conserving.

Was at Wally World and they had Mobil 1 in the five qt. container, was looking at the 15w/50 silver cap...no energy conserving label on it either. Decided against it, went for the RP instead. Did get my filter there though...$2.84.

[Cliff]

Good (expensive) oil.

[nors]

What I like about RP is the sound it makes when the container is sloshed around, the oil sounds very thick, unlike some Synthetics that sound thin and watery  , but as far as the supporting numbers go with wear figured in I'm staying with Redline. . .  it's now sold at my local Cycle Gear chain store and a few other stores in town, seams to be catching on.

[Jabba]

I have been using Mobile 1 for everything I own, including the Valk for MANY years.  I have been using the 15W50 for the Valk.

his last oil change I used 10/40 Royal Purple on a whim.  My valve train got all loud all of a sudden.  So much so... I went in and adjusted the valve lash.  It was still there.  I was about to drain the oil and go back to the thicker 15/50 mobile one... when the tickety-tickety-tickety disappeared.

huh?

Now I'll never know.  Still on the Royal Purple, and it seems to be fine.

Jabba

[shortleg]

   Royal Purple sells A Max-Cycle 10-40 and 20-50
made for motorcycles To go with our clutches.
   I just tryed it myself and have found that the
engine seems to run about 20degrees cooler.
  Now that is after a ride at 70 for 2 hours.
           Shortleg[Dave]

[nors]

Jabba . . . Is the 15-50w Mobile 1 a car oil or a motorcycle oil?

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

 I'm  not Jabba  but I've ran mobil 1 15w50 automotive grade in both my valks for years. Oreilly's just had it on sale for 4.99 a quart last month and I picked up 12 qts. My I/S has over 118K miles on it and is still running like a raped ape.

[X Ring]

Jabba . . . I the 15-50w Mobile 1 a car oil or a motorcycle oil?

Actually it is truck oil along the lines of Rotella T6 Synthetic.  Last time I bought the Mobil 1 15W50 in the 5 qt jug at Wally World it was $21 or $22, iirc.

Marty

[Disco]

I got my 2000 Standard in August of 2007.  It had 3,570 miles on it. 

I put Honda HN4 10w-40 plus a Honda filter at 4,000 miles. 

I changed to Royal Purple 10w-40 + Honda filter at 8,140 miles and ran it to 15,728 miles (7,588 miles).  The Blackstone Labs Used Oil Analysis suggested 8,500 miles on the next interval.  I ran Royal Purple 20w-50 + Purolator Pure One PL14610 filter to 24,156 miles (8,428 miles) and am waiting on the Blackstone Labs report.  I'm running Royal Purple 10w-40 + PL14610 now and do notice a bit more engine noise.

   

[98valk]

there are better oils to use than RP including lower cost, http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=49&page=1

it did not do well from independent testing http://www.amsoil.com/products/streetbikes/WhitePaper.aspx

I tend to remember it didn't do well in the motorcycle consumer news testing of oils a few yrs ago either.

Dave's testing shows it doesn't hold up for a high price syn, honda recommends 8k on dino oil.

Oil analysis is the only really way to know how an oil is working in one's bike.

[roboto65]

I have used Royal Purple for years in all kind of vehicles. I have it in my Valk now I also have the RP in the Pumpkin and a RP filter  .

Now as far as the so called "Independent" tests go who did the test I have seen this one a bit now not starting anything but it is funny when they say independent and well Amsoil did the test and there oil is better than everyone elses in the tests 

[98valk]

I have used Royal Purple for years in all kind of vehicles. I have it in my Valk now I also have the RP in the Pumpkin and a RP filter  .

Now as far as the so called "Independent" tests go who did the test I have seen this one a bit now not starting anything but it is funny when they say independent and well Amsoil did the test and there oil is better than everyone elses in the tests 

 if u read the report u would see that amsoil did not do best in all tests.  overall amsoil won, due to winning some tests which would only benefit bike owners who don't ride much or classic bike owners. some of the oils did just as well as amsoil. some of the other oils might be better for a particular application and riding/driving conditions and of course availablity and cost.
1 amsoil, 2 motul, 3 mobil, 4 spectro, 5 maxima, 6 bel ray,  7 RP and torco, 9 pennzoil, 10 valvoline, 11 lucas, 12 castrol
I would be really concerned that rp failed the 4 ball wear test (had highest wear of all oils tested) and the viscosity shear stable tests.

I'm not a amsoil dealer, just use it.

[Disco]

Good points, CA.  I went back with RP this time because it was on the shelf.  It will be interesting to see what the UOA says on the 20w-50 + PL14610.  My plan for the next change is to abandon extended service intervals, change the oil at 30,000, go dino + PL14610, and start 5,000 Oil Change Intervals. 

BTW, where did Rotella T rank in the testing?

[roboto65]

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf

Thought I had read something that differs from theres and he has pictures 
by the way i am just messing I think all oils do the job they are there for it far more important to change it on a regular basis than worry which one 

[Dag]

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf

Thought I had read something that differs from theres and he has pictures 
by the way i am just messing I think all oils do the job they are there for it far more important to change it on a regular basis than worry which one 

    

[98valk]

Good points, CA.  I went back with RP this time because it was on the shelf.  It will be interesting to see what the UOA says on the 20w-50 + PL14610.  My plan for the next change is to abandon extended service intervals, change the oil at 30,000, go dino + PL14610, and start 5,000 Oil Change Intervals. 

BTW, where did Rotella T rank in the testing?

they only tested mc oils.
bobistheoilguy.com has a lot of motorcycle used oil analysis reports.

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

I've been using royal purple grease on my splines for over 70k and I'm very happy with the results from using their product. We have a member who has a bike shop in Porter Texas right across the street from the main factory. I met him at HotGlues GOTFs this year but can't remember his handle.

[roboto65]

Yeah It alked to him to and thought I got his number but for the life of me I cannot remember his handle or name DANG CRS

[Jabba]

Jabba . . . Is the 15-50w Mobile 1 a car oil or a motorcycle oil?

What THEY said.  I'd call it non-denominational, but it does NOT have the friction modifiers in it.  ie... it does NOT have "energy conserving" in the lower half of the tech circle on the back.  I have used Mobile 1 15W50 for a lot of years in a lot of bikes.  It's fine. 

I can't pay $12/qt for "motorcycle oil".  I just don't believe the crap.  Of course I am a darksider too...

Jabba

[Jabba]

Someone siad it's more inportant ti change it often... I agree.

I am a 3K oil changer.  It's cheap insurance.  And makes me feel like I have clean sheets in the bed... 

Jabba

[borat]

I'm in agreement with regular oil changes using any decent oil vs. high end oils that provide very little if any added protection for the added expense.   I run Rotella T 15W40 in all my four stroke bikes and ATVs.   It's reasonably priced and an excellent oil.  Why pay more for anything else? 

With 8000 mile OCI using conventional oil, as per the manual,  5000 mile OCIs  is better than the manual's instructions and still a respectable number of miles for an OCI.   Hard to beat a good HDEO such as Delvac or Rotella for protection and very good value. 

[Disco]

The following is a Public Service Announcement...   

I just received my Blackstone Labs Used Oil Analysis from the last oil change (8,428 miles on Royal Purple 20w-50 + Purolator Pure One PL14610) and, um, let's just say, it was neither expected, acceptable, nor comforting.  I did not run the engine the recommended 20 minutes prior to changing - it was more like 5 - so I might have burned more fuel out if I'd run it longer, but fuel dilution was not the problem. 

Needless to say, I'll be making a change.  I might even send a copy to RP to see what they say.

Comments Section: "DAVID: You ran this oil 8,428 miles, but the extra miles should not have caused all the excess wear we found.  Chromium (rings) increased considerably along with iron (cylinders and other steel parts), and silicon may be the reason if it's from dirt getting past the air filter, so check that. The fuel dilution, at just 0.8%, isn’t enough to call a problem, though it may have played a part in the low viscosity (it was in the 5W/30 range). Hard to say for sure because the viscosity was also low last time, but no fuel was found. Check compressions due to wear and resample in 6,000 miles."

As if reading the Comments weren't enough to make me feel sick, here are numbers (and my first attempt at using the Table functions (boy, was that laborious!)).

Miles on Oil Miles on Unit Sample Date Make Up Oil Added Aluminum Chromium Iron Copper Lead Tin Molybdenum Nickel Manganese Silver Titanium Potassium Boron Silicon Sodium Calcium Magnesium Phosphorus Zinc Barium SUS Viscosity @ 210 F cSt Viscosity @ 100 C Flashpoint in F Fuel % Antifreeze % Water % Insolubles % TBN

8,428 24,156 6/11/10 0 qts 9 13 69 18 1 1 122 1 1 0 0 4 8 18 10 3804 18 1141 1605 0 59.4 10.04 370 0.8 0.0 0.0 0.3

Unit Averages 9 7 55 15 1 1 117 1 1 0 0 3 14 16 7 3487 33 1133 1485 0 Values Should Be 82-95 16.0-19.4 >385 <2.0 0.0 <0.1 <0.6

7,588 15,728 9/1/08 0 qts 8 1 41 12 0 0 112 0 1 0 0 2 19 13 4 3170 47 1124 1365 0 61.2 10.56 380 <0.5 0.0 0.0 0.3 4.3

Universal Averages 5 1 22 8 4 1 62 1 0 0 0 2 69 9 7 2232 201 933 1123 0

[98valk]

how many of those miles were in cold weather less than 45F?
what type of air filter?

[Disco]

how many of those miles were in cold weather less than 45F?

I feel confident saying less than 25% and pretty sure less than 20%.

what type of air filter?

(Assumed original) OEM removed at 12,150 miles and replaced with OEM.  Replaced with OEM at 19,933 miles.  It will get another OEM at or before 30,000 miles when I get home from InZane.

[98valk]

how many of those miles were in cold weather less than 45F?

I feel confident saying less than 25% and pretty sure less than 20%.

I have full gages now and this past winter I found out how cold these engines run. I had to have 95% of the radiator blocked just so the water temp would get to 180 and the oil temp to 190 after a 10 mile hwy and 3 mile city ride to work. Before the rad block the engine barely would get to 150F.
 I did an UOA a few yrs ago after winter and the amsoil 10w40 was a 10w30 and metals where a little high for 4k miles although per the report was still good for continued use. I need to take new sample this wknd, at 4.5k with amsoil 10w30/30HD diesel oil.

[Disco]

I have full gages now...

Roger that.  My box of Motosens goodies got here Monday and I'm hoping to have them all on by the time I leave for Bellaire.  I will be very interested to see just what's (been) going on. 

[Disco]

Here is my post-phone call email exchange with RP today.  Comments?  Suggestions?


Mike,

Thanks for your time.

Attached are three Blackstone Labs Used Oil Analyses.  The original 2008 UOA was amended to consider the lack of use (3,570 miles) the engine had suffered/enjoyed between its manufacture in May 1999 my purchase in August 2007.  Prior to my first use of RP at 8,140 miles, I changed the oil at 4,000 miles and used the Honda HN4 10w-40 + Honda oil filter.  The first RP (10w-40) interval used the Honda oil filter.  The second interval (20w-50) used the Purolator PureOne PL14610 oil filter.

Feel free to email or call my cell.

DFG


David,

All three oil analysis indicate viscosity below new oil range and the most common cause for this is fuel dilution in the oil.   Contrary to Blackstone's comments fuel dilution can be a problem due to viscosity loss and there is no indication that an actual check for fuel was done on the oil.   This test is not preformed routinely and require different methods than spectro-analysis.    I would recommend having the bike checked for a possible source for fuel dilution.

Mike Crosby

[98valk]

your %fuel is low and the TBN is still high.  If like I mentioned colder temp riding and the engine never gets up to temp meaning the oil temp doesn't get near 200F or to 210 then the fuel will not burn off as fast as it should which weakens the viscosity of the oil.
Every oil test/comparison I have seen of RP oil to others rp doesn't spec out well except their top of the line race oil.
I wouldn't use it.
post your UOA on bobistheoilguy.com and let those experts see it.

[98valk]

this was my second UOA

Amsoil 10w40 this is not the newer mc oil but their org 10w40 which is still rated for m/c use
  no radiator block

Miles on Oil  4213
Miles on Unit 16123
Sample Date  5-6-05  after winter (30F) and spring riding
Make Up Oil Added  0

Aluminum      11
Chromium      2
Iron               39
Copper           25
Lead               0
Tin                 0
Molybdenum    0
Nickel              0
Manganese      --
Silver              0
Titanium          --
Potassium        0
Boron             3
Silicon            19
Sodium           8
Calcium        3636
Magnesium     22
Phosphorus    1120
Zinc              1314
Barium           0


SUS Viscosity @ 210 F     --
cSt Viscosity @ 100 C      10.96
Flashpoint in F                ---
Fuel %                            <1
Antifreeze %                   neg
Water %                           0
Insolubles %                   ----
TBN                                 8.03

oil analyzers commenrts; normal, no corrective action required. oil is suitable for continued use.
       

[98valk]

Comments Section: "DAVID: You ran this oil 8,428 miles, but the extra miles should not have caused all the excess wear we found.  Chromium (rings) increased considerably along with iron (cylinders and other steel parts), and silicon may be the reason if it's from dirt getting past the air filter, so check that. The fuel dilution, at just 0.8%, isn’t enough to call a problem, though it may have played a part in the low viscosity (it was in the 5W/30 range). Hard to say for sure because the viscosity was also low last time, but no fuel was found. Check compressions due to wear and resample in 6,000 miles."

from users guide sent by oil analyzers and some from bobistheoilguy.com
Chromium can be from a coolant additive or exhaust valve    for a gas engine 5/20 ppm is normal 25 abnormal for a trans 10 is normal 20 ab.
iron also from camshafts, valve train, oil pump (valk eng has two) for gas  5/25 n, 350 ab, trans 50/200 n,  300 ab.  some oils have 2 ppm in virgin OA, amsoil is one
silicon over oil baseline, it is also an antifoam additve, gears in a trans can foam up the oil, or a leachate from gaskets/sealant compounds. Chevy engines have shown high silicon for over 20k miles in UOAs.
 gas 20 n, 30 ab, trans 30 n, 40 ab.  amsoil has 3ppm baseline

[Disco]

I rode 8,542 miles since my last oil change on 11 June 2010 and replaced the RP 10w-40 + PL14610 with Mobil 1 15w-50 + PL14610 on 15 August 2010.  The used oil sample will go out today and I'll report back as soon as I receive the analysis.  Until then, I forwarded to Blackstone RP's email to me and here's the email exchange between Blackstone Labs and me about the last used oil analysis.


David:  Thanks for the e-mail.  Fuel dilution at 0.8% isn't normally enough to cause serious wear problem, so that's why we didn't worry about it too much.  Rather, we think with the sudden increase in wear, you may have a mechanical problem developing in the engine (mainly at rings due to chrome) and this could be letting more fuel into the oil.  If you haven't done so already, run a compression test.  Also check the air filter for any problems due to silicon.  This level of silicon isn't normally enough to cause serious wear like this, though it's possible.  I think it's unlikely the drop in viscosity caused the poor wear.  A lot of the samples we see from this type of engine are running 10W/40 oil and the viscosity of this sample was pretty close to that.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

Sincerely, Ryan Stark, Blackstone Labs


Thanks for the quick response, Ryan.  I suppose that it's possible I have a mechanical problem brewing, but given the long lives many of my friends' Valkyries enjoy, mine is still very young.  I have not performed a compression test, but that's a good idea.  I don't understand your air filter / silicon suggestion.  I use OEM air filters and change them at 10,000 mile intervals.  I believe the manual states 12,000 mile intervals.

I returned last week from a 4,000 mile ride on the latest oil change and am about to go out on another that will be at least 3,000.  Do you recommend I change before leaving, go at least 7,000 miles after the latest UOA suggested 6,000, or have it changed on the road somewhere?

Thanks, DFG


David:  Thanks for the reply.  I suggested checking the air filter due to the higher silicon we found.  Dirt getting past the air filter isn't necessarily the source, but it never hurts to inspect that area just to make sure.  If the air filter is clean, look downstream of the filter for any cracks or other problems that may be letting dirt in.

As far as how long to run the next oil, if the compressions are good, then you don't need to change the oil early.  Go on your trip and check back when you get home.  Hopefully the high wear we found will turn out to be just a one-time occurrence.

Let me know if you have any more questions.

Sincerely, Ryan Stark, Blackstone Labs

[Ricky-D]

Hey Disco, it looks like there was almost two years between the oil changes where you posted reply #21. If that is correct, two years is two times too much between oil changes, regardless of miles!

Only other point is that a long ride, like thousands of miles is a whole lot easier on the oil when compared to stop and sit miles.  Back in 2005 I took a ride up along the St. Laurence seaway, over 7,000 miles and when I changed oil after it still looked relatively clean. Probably could have put on a few thousand more miles!

***

[98valk]

checkout,

My latest Used oil analysis (UOA)  
u can see from my other UOA that metal wear has gone done indicating that the engine is finnaly breaking in or getting close to it, whereas metals should stabilize.

OIL REPORT from Blackstone Labs

MAKE/MODEL:      Honda Motorcycle GL 1500 6-cyl  
FUEL TYPE:
ADDITIONAL INFO:   OEM Air Filter
OIL TYPE & GRADE:   Amsoil 10w30/30HD Diesel Oil
OIL USE INTERVAL:   08/12/09 to 08/06/10 Temps 25F to 100F in that time. Pure1 oil filter PL14459
BLACKSTONE COMMENTS: Universal averages show typical wear metals for an oil from this Honda GL 1500 after about 6,100 miles on the oil. Your oil was run 4,258 miles and wear metals read around those averages. All metals were in correct balance, which is a good indication that internal parts are wearing normally. This viscosity read on target for 10W/30 and was free of any contaminants. The TBN was still strong at 7.1, lots of active additive left. A TBN of 1.0 is low. Insolubles, which are solids formed by heat and use, were good at 0.4%.
Try going 6,000 miles next time.

Miles on Oil   4258      Universal
Miles on Unit   26247      Avgs
Sample Date   08/06/10

ALUMINUM   6      5
CHROMIUM   1      1
IRON      18      22
COPPER      11      8
LEAD      4      4
TIN      1      1
MOLYBDENUM   3      59
NICKEL      0      1
MANGANESE   1      0
SILVER      0      0
TITANIUM   0      0
POTASSIUM   3      2
BORON      51      68
SILICON      13      9
SODIUM      5      7
CALCIUM    3457      2293
MAGNESIUM   27      193
PHOSPHORUS   1080      940
ZINC      1279      1131
BARIUM      0      0

SUS Viscosity @ 210̊F   58.8
cSt Viscosity @ 100̊C   9.89
Flashpoint in ̊F      375
Fuel %         <0.5
Antifreeze %      0.0
Water %         0.0
Insolubles %      0.4
TBN         7.1


My Comments: Very happy with this oil. Especially how it performed considering the wide temperature range and being in service for 1 yr.
During colder temperatures radiator was blocked 95% to maintain 180F water temperature and 185-195F oil temperatures.
This is my number one oil choice now.

cst 9.30-12.49 per the charts for 30w.

Amsoil list 10.5 cst
a previous post of a VOA was 9.9 cst
so it looks like this oil didn't shear at all at 9.89 cst
during this 1yr time frame. always had at least 5 minute warmup in winter and due to all the snow this past winter the bike sat not running for about 1 1/2 months.
when this oil was only rated at 30w it met the wet clutch specs like allison.
Very impressed with the TBN after 1yr.
Smoothest shifting oil even now after 1yr I have ever used.
will sample again at another 4k miles.

[John Schmidt]

Is that their product code #ACD1G-EA ?  It apparently doesn't contain friction modifiers!?!?

[98valk]

yes ACD
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/acd.aspx

[98valk]

here is the org formulation when it was a 30w

http://www.oil-tech.com/acd.htm

these are the wet clutch specs it met.
Caterpillar Powershift Trans. TO-2 and TO-3
Allison C-3 and C-4

[Disco]

Here is the latest UOA from Blackstone.  Unlike last time's 5-minute warm-up, I drained this oil after a day of riding.  (sure do like the Mobile 1 15w-50 so far)  I removed and replaced the oem air filter element after this sample was taken.  The filter element had 12,808 miles on it, was dirty, but was far from the worst I've ever seen. 

Comments: DAVID: This oil run lasted a little longer that your last sample, but unlike that last sample wear metals improved here. Chrome and iron, especially, still read above average, but seeing a decrease is encouraging. Copper dropped low enough to be considered normal and we also noted silicon dipped by a couple ppm. If you already checked the air filter, we suggest looking up and down stream for faults, as 16 ppm is still a mildly high reading. The viscosity was again low, but that's probably just the way this engine is going to be. It's not a real problem. No fuel found. Try 6K mi.

Miles on Oil Miles on Unit Sample Date Make Up Oil Added Aluminum Chromium Iron Copper Lead Tin Molybdenum Nickel Manganese Silver Titanium Potassium Boron Silicon Sodium Calcium Magnesium Phosphorus Zinc Barium SUS Viscosity @ 210 F cSt Viscosity @ 100 C Flashpoint in F Fuel % Antifreeze % Water % Insolubles % TBN

8,542 32,698 9/01/10 0 qts 7 5 58 12 1 0 121 0 1 0 0 4 3 16 10 3633 14 1071 1587 0 62.2 10.83 410 <0.5 0.0 0.0 0.2

Unit Averages 8 6 57 14 1 0 119 0 1 0 0 4 8 16 9 3560 23 1102 1536 0 Values Should Be 64-75 11.3-14.5 >370 <2.0 0.0 <0.1 <0.6

8,428 24,156 6/11/10 0 qts 9 13 69 18 1 1 122 1 1 0 0 4 8 19 10 3804 18 1141 1605 0 59.4 10.04 370 0.8 0.0 0.0 0.3

7,588 15,728 9/01/08 0 qts 8 1 41 12 0 0 112 0 1 0 0 2 19 13 4 3170 47 1124 1365 0 61.2 10.56 380 <0.5 0.0 0.0 0.0 4.3

[98valk]

silicon is also an oil additive in some oils as an anti-foam additive or can be a leachate from gasket/sealant compounds. check for a VOA on bobistheoilguy.com. I suggest u post your results there also and ask for some expert advice.
The air filter will last longer than 12k, and actually will filter better with miles on it than when new.
did u see my UOA posted above?
that oil sheared down to a 30w oil. 30 wt range is 9.3 - 12.5,  50wt is 16.3 - 21.9

from my charts high iron can be the clutch face. all other metals are normal which indicates the engine is wearing fine.