Please look and pass on (important)

[czuch]

I had a driver who dropped at my facility last week. He was going to Yuma from Tucson and wanted to know how it was along the I-8. I rode it 2 weeks ago and no problems. Just another day in America.  HOWEVER, we were dirtbike riding in the Organ Pipe NATIONAL forest 2 years ago and told to get out by the Border Patrol Heros for our own safety. Even got an escort back to our trucks that they were surprised were still there.
Also Gator Navy, LPH-3, U.S.S. Okinawa, 1978-1981.

[Bobbo]

PA don't worry about the hijack thread thing, no biggie and thanks for serving. I also served, US Navy from 1976 to 1982 aboard the USS Saratoga CV60 out of Mayport Florida but this thread was not started to see who has military service and who does not. I don't think you, or anyone else, will ever get a straight answer out of BOBBO. I started this thresd to show all of you that do not live in Arizona what is happening here and what we put up with on a daily basis. It was posted to show that if we do not put a stop to this it will be happening in your state soon enough. It really upsets me to see ANYONE do that to the American flag that I gave my time and life for. It is there right to do this? Is it my right to defend it?

Thanks for bringing this thread back on track.  I know PAVALKER desperately wanted to divert it onto a proclamation of his service, which he has mentioned several times and even uses it as a tag line on his handle.  I will refrain from continuing his diversion since he is now using negative inferences in an attempt to insult me.

What do you expect to stop?  Protest?  Do you support new laws that further restrict citizens to get redress of their grievances from the government?  I agree that flag desecration is extreme and elicits emotional responses, but we cannot eliminate this form of freedom, even though we disagree with the message.

I was not at this rally and now that I see what went on it was a darn good thing I was not. I am not an extremist, I am a proud American first, a redneck cowboy second and a motorcycle enthusiast third. I was taught respect for my elders and women. I was taught to be patient when dealing with others and to turn the other cheek. I was also taught that when turning the other cheek did not work and your patiance ran out to do what you had to do.

Well, at least you’re up front that you only halfheartedly agree with Christian teachings.  Many “Christians” contradict Jesus’ teachings, but will never admit it.

I just wanted you all to see this, in hopes that you all will understand what, how and why this state I live in is doing all those nasty things like securing our boarders and getting the ILLEGAL deported. In all honesty and from the bottom of my heart...If you do not like this country.....GET THE HECK OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAUSE I SURE DON'T WANT YOU HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, protesters act because they DO love this country, and want to correct a perceived wrong.  Whether you agree with the message is not the point.  If you disagree with the message, simply create a counter protest.

[Bobbo]

Did we confirm that?  I thought it was perceived that they were people in America with a Mexican heritage or background, and not necessarily all citizens (a citizen is a legal citizen otherwise they are illegal aliens right?).   I wasn't checking ID's and didn't get a reading if someone else was either....

It would be nearly impossible to confirm the citizenship or status of the people pictured in the link, but I agree with G-MAN that they were probably all American citizens, or here legally.  It appears to be a sanctioned protest, complete with police for protection.

If you need help understanding that there are many ways to be in the USA legally, other than citizenship, I recommend that you Google “legal alien”.

[Westernbiker]

PA don't worry about the hijack thread thing, no biggie and thanks for serving. I also served, US Navy from 1976 to 1982 aboard the USS Saratoga CV60 out of Mayport Florida but this thread was not started to see who has military service and who does not. I don't think you, or anyone else, will ever get a straight answer out of BOBBO. I started this thresd to show all of you that do not live in Arizona what is happening here and what we put up with on a daily basis. It was posted to show that if we do not put a stop to this it will be happening in your state soon enough. It really upsets me to see ANYONE do that to the American flag that I gave my time and life for. It is there right to do this? Is it my right to defend it?

Thanks for bringing this thread back on track.  I know PAVALKER desperately wanted to divert it onto a proclamation of his service, which he has mentioned several times and even uses it as a tag line on his handle.  I will refrain from continuing his diversion since he is now using negative inferences in an attempt to insult me.

What do you expect to stop?  Protest?  Do you support new laws that further restrict citizens to get redress of their grievances from the government?  I agree that flag desecration is extreme and elicits emotional responses, but we cannot eliminate this form of freedom, even though we disagree with the message.

I was not at this rally and now that I see what went on it was a darn good thing I was not. I am not an extremist, I am a proud American first, a redneck cowboy second and a motorcycle enthusiast third. I was taught respect for my elders and women. I was taught to be patient when dealing with others and to turn the other cheek. I was also taught that when turning the other cheek did not work and your patiance ran out to do what you had to do.

Well, at least you’re up front that you only halfheartedly agree with Christian teachings.  Many “Christians” contradict Jesus’ teachings, but will never admit it.

I just wanted you all to see this, in hopes that you all will understand what, how and why this state I live in is doing all those nasty things like securing our boarders and getting the ILLEGAL deported. In all honesty and from the bottom of my heart...If you do not like this country.....GET THE HECK OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAUSE I SURE DON'T WANT YOU HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, protesters act because they DO love this country, and want to correct a perceived wrong.  Whether you agree with the message is not the point.  If you disagree with the message, simply create a counter protest.

BOBBO, unlike many others on here I will not discuss anything with you. I have read your postings in the past and I have made my assesment of who you are and what you stand for and I will not answer your questions or play your game period.

[PAVALKER]

Thanks for bringing this thread back on track.  I know PAVALKER desperately wanted to divert it onto a proclamation of his service, which he has mentioned several times and even uses it as a tag line on his handle.  I will refrain from continuing his diversion since he is now using negative inferences in an attempt to insult me.

And yet those questions still remain unanswered.  ha ha... Go figure.....  hmmmm.    No tag line, branding or bragging... just a fact used as a defense to counter your baseless BS personal attacks, as is your typical MO.  I would never use a negative inference in an attempt to insult you... IMO you have insulted and disgraced many others, but more so yourself even more than I or anyone else ever could insult you. Congratulations on your personal accomplishments.  Well done......

And getting back on topic... those protesters appeared to me to be of the Hispanic heritage and were neither confirmed as being citizens or aliens (legal or illegal), and regardless which... it was obvious that they were anti-American based on their actions in disgracing the American flag.  So where is the love of country????   I think the love was not for this country but rooted in their heritage and not in the country in which they were at the present moment.  Instead of attempting to change our country and the American values on which this country was founded... I believe they should redirect their anger and efforts in fixing their homeland/heritage country and the country for which they might have fled.  

In closing, if they truly love this country, then you would think they should be willing and eager to defend and serve it in some capacity, to make it better and stronger, not fight and protest within it to only weaken and destroy it.... so that they get their own self serving ways.  

[SANDMAN5]

Many “Christians” contradict Jesus’ teachings, but will never admit it.

Most of them that do it won't admit it because they don't KNOW it!! They
grew up in a "religious" atmosphere that may have had good intentions, but
somewhere along the line 'religion' got mixed in with the Word of God. That's
(again) why I keep telling people there is a difference (although sometimes it's
a subtle, almost imperceptible one) between Christianity and religion. One glaring
example is the Westboro Baptists. Does ANYBODY here believe that what those
hate-mongerers preach is in the Bible? Yet, so many are all-too-quick to classify
them as Christians. MAYBE they've accepted Jesus...MAYBE they've not. But they
have surely been subjected to wrong teaching. Anybody care to disagree?

[Bobbo]

And yet those questions still remain unanswered.  ha ha... Go figure.....  hmmmm.    No tag line, branding or bragging... just a fact used as a defense to counter your baseless BS personal attacks, as is your typical MO.  I would never use a negative inference in an attempt to insult you... IMO you have insulted and disgraced many others, but more so yourself even more than I or anyone else ever could insult you. Congratulations on your personal accomplishments.  Well done......

My statement was in response to, and directed at a statement you made.  It is not a “BS personal attack” as you want to believe.  If you don’t want your statements debated here, I suggest you don’t post them.

And getting back on topic... those protesters appeared to me to be of the Hispanic heritage and were neither confirmed as being citizens or aliens (legal or illegal), and regardless which... it was obvious that they were anti-American based on their actions in disgracing the American flag.  So where is the love of country????   I think the love was not for this country but rooted in their heritage and not in the country in which they were at the present moment.  Instead of attempting to change our country and the American values on which this country was founded... I believe they should redirect their anger and efforts in fixing their homeland/heritage country and the country for which they might have fled.  

In closing, if they truly love this country, then you would think they should be willing and eager to defend and serve it in some capacity, to make it better and stronger, not fight and protest within it to only weaken and destroy it.... so that they get their own self serving ways.  

Amazing.  Did you make similar statements when Blacks were protesting to get equal treatment?  How about women?  Are these groups also self-serving and hate America because they used their freedom to protest?  If you believe being patriotic is continually following in lockstep with the establishment, you should study history a little closer.

[Bobbo]

Many “Christians” contradict Jesus’ teachings, but will never admit it.

Most of them that do it won't admit it because they don't KNOW it!! They
grew up in a "religious" atmosphere that may have had good intentions, but
somewhere along the line 'religion' got mixed in with the Word of God. That's
(again) why I keep telling people there is a difference (although sometimes it's
a subtle, almost imperceptible one) between Christianity and religion. One glaring
example is the Westboro Baptists. Does ANYBODY here believe that what those
hate-mongerers preach is in the Bible? Yet, so many are all-too-quick to classify
them as Christians. MAYBE they've accepted Jesus...MAYBE they've not. But they
have surely been subjected to wrong teaching. Anybody care to disagree?

The Wesboro Baptist Church members obviously based their protests on several passages in the Bible, Leviticus 18:22-30, and 20:13.  There are also references in the New Testament in Paul’s letter to the Romans.  They believe they are doing the right thing by using a near literal reading and interpretation of the Bible.  That approach has almost always caused problems.

[musclehead]

If these people are so pissed off a this country, why do they live here?  Why don't they just go there, instead of wanting to bring Mexico here?  I'm sure there's plenty of opportunity down there.  Housing is cheaper, etc.  I'm sure they'd be much happier and they'd be in a country where they could be patriots instead of rallying so distastefully and offensively against this country.

GMan,
When I read your posts, I ask myself the same thing.....  If you are so angry with the way the country is run, why do you live here?  Of course I know you really like it here, but just like to rant.....

No, I don't like living here......I LOVE LIVING HERE!  I love living in the greatest country in the world.  I hold this country in the highest of esteem.  This country has done more to advance mankind, protect mankind, and help mankind than any other nation, past or present.  I don't have to agree with the agenda of this or any administration to love this country.  I'd consider living nowhere else.

These people, obviously, DON'T love this country and think it's evil, so why stay here? 

 Rant over.

my sentiments exactly, this is my country and I'll fight for her at the ballot box and more.

[SANDMAN5]

The Wesboro Baptist Church members obviously based their protests on several passages in the Bible, Leviticus 18:22-30, and 20:13.  There are also references in the New Testament in Paul’s letter to the Romans.  They believe they are doing the right thing by using a near literal reading and interpretation of the Bible.  That approach has almost always caused problems.

No, you missed my point. I agree (so does the Bible) with them that homosexuality is an
abomination, I was talking about their actions. Where does the Bible say to treat the
family of a fallen soldier with such disrespect? And the main thing they have wrong..they
say God hates homosexuals..WRONG..God hates homosexuality. He hates the sin..not the
sinner. They're just hiding behind the Bible to spew their hatred and to get their face on tv.

[PAVALKER]

And yet those questions still remain unanswered.  ha ha... Go figure.....  hmmmm.    No tag line, branding or bragging... just a fact used as a defense to counter your baseless BS personal attacks, as is your typical MO.  I would never use a negative inference in an attempt to insult you... IMO you have insulted and disgraced many others, but more so yourself even more than I or anyone else ever could insult you. Congratulations on your personal accomplishments.  Well done......

My statement was in response to, and directed at a statement you made.  It is not a “BS personal attack” as you want to believe.  If you don’t want your statements debated here, I suggest you don’t post them.

And getting back on topic... those protesters appeared to me to be of the Hispanic heritage and were neither confirmed as being citizens or aliens (legal or illegal), and regardless which... it was obvious that they were anti-American based on their actions in disgracing the American flag.  So where is the love of country????   I think the love was not for this country but rooted in their heritage and not in the country in which they were at the present moment.  Instead of attempting to change our country and the American values on which this country was founded... I believe they should redirect their anger and efforts in fixing their homeland/heritage country and the country for which they might have fled.  

In closing, if they truly love this country, then you would think they should be willing and eager to defend and serve it in some capacity, to make it better and stronger, not fight and protest within it to only weaken and destroy it.... so that they get their own self serving ways.  

Amazing.  Did you make similar statements when Blacks were protesting to get equal treatment?  How about women?  Are these groups also self-serving and hate America because they used their freedom to protest?  If you believe being patriotic is continually following in lockstep with the establishment, you should study history a little closer.

Of course I have similar feelings  about those "movements", as well. Obviously you think a violent and hateful demonstration/discussion is the answer to all causes.... and will justify it all to the freedom of speech or expression. I don't.  If they are peacefully protesting then I fully support them doing so.  However, radical hateful protests and demonstrations of pure hate to the country and its citizens serve no useful purpose but to further drive a wedge and actually can work against their intent and cause (like maybe your perceived  attacks and slanderous assumptions might do with others in your arguments and discussions here.... by the way, you might be better received on the HDFORUMS.com message boards). 

Just like a baby crying to get some attention... they might get some attention, but it might not be the attention they actually want or need.

My father and grandparents came to this country, through the front door at Ellis Island, learned to speak the language of the country, English (not German, Spanish or whatever), worked and earned the right to became citizens and pay taxes..... and legally vote.  My father even served this country in WWII as well.  They didn't cross a border illegally, then demand equal rights/treatment or benefits for which they did not earn, pay into and should not be entitled to.  And that is part of what I think the OP is making issue with.  Furthermore, my grandparents didn't demand that the country assimilate to them or everyone else that immigrated legally and lawfully... they had to assimilate to the country in which they went to.  They had a choice to stay and live within the country of their heritage or go to the promised land and make better of themselves, and they did it the way it should be done.

[fudgie]

PA don't worry about the hijack thread thing, no biggie and thanks for serving. I also served, US Navy from 1976 to 1982 aboard the USS Saratoga CV60 out of Mayport Florida but this thread was not started to see who has military service and who does not. I don't think you, or anyone else, will ever get a straight answer out of BOBBO. I started this thresd to show all of you that do not live in Arizona what is happening here and what we put up with on a daily basis. It was posted to show that if we do not put a stop to this it will be happening in your state soon enough. It really upsets me to see ANYONE do that to the American flag that I gave my time and life for. It is there right to do this? Is it my right to defend it?

Thanks for bringing this thread back on track.  I know PAVALKER desperately wanted to divert it onto a proclamation of his service, which he has mentioned several times and even uses it as a tag line on his handle.  I will refrain from continuing his diversion since he is now using negative inferences in an attempt to insult me.

What do you expect to stop?  Protest?  Do you support new laws that further restrict citizens to get redress of their grievances from the government?  I agree that flag desecration is extreme and elicits emotional responses, but we cannot eliminate this form of freedom, even though we disagree with the message.

I was not at this rally and now that I see what went on it was a darn good thing I was not. I am not an extremist, I am a proud American first, a redneck cowboy second and a motorcycle enthusiast third. I was taught respect for my elders and women. I was taught to be patient when dealing with others and to turn the other cheek. I was also taught that when turning the other cheek did not work and your patiance ran out to do what you had to do.

Well, at least you’re up front that you only halfheartedly agree with Christian teachings.  Many “Christians” contradict Jesus’ teachings, but will never admit it.

I just wanted you all to see this, in hopes that you all will understand what, how and why this state I live in is doing all those nasty things like securing our boarders and getting the ILLEGAL deported. In all honesty and from the bottom of my heart...If you do not like this country.....GET THE HECK OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAUSE I SURE DON'T WANT YOU HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, protesters act because they DO love this country, and want to correct a perceived wrong.  Whether you agree with the message is not the point.  If you disagree with the message, simply create a counter protest.

Wow. Do you really thing PA is bragging he served. WTF? Maybe he used it in his tag line cause he is HONORED to serve his Country.    (cant find my finger smiley)

[fudgie]

My favorite from sturgis....

http://picasaweb.google.com/fudgie349/Sturgis20101#5506532955535943458

[BigAlOfMD]

Well I'm PROUD of you PAVALKER!  Thank you for your 22 years of service.

From the heart.

Hay  
Jimmyt

Thanks.  I wasn't beating my chest (as was suggested) or soliciting any pats on the back.... just tossed that in to support and document my pro American position (from my perspective at least).   My father always used to say... "opinions are like assholes... everyone has one and they all stink.  Don't judge the character of an individual by what they say; especially during sex, at election time, or when under duress, base their character on their past performance and actions".  And in an effort to lend some character to the the individual attacking mine... I wanted (and still want) to know his background.

I have found that those who boast the most about their achievements and patriotism, generally have very little of both.

[fuzzy2bucks]

Answer:

Immediate Exportation to the totally corupt, poor, and grossly dangerous country of Messico.

[Bobbo]

Wow. Do you really thing PA is bragging he served. WTF? Maybe he used it in his tag line cause he is HONORED to serve his Country.    (cant find my finger smiley)

PAVALKER has mentioned his military service several times in an attempt to affirm his patriotism.   In subsequent posts, he has repeatedly asked about my military service, and implied that since I won’t give him details, I must be “ashamed”, or “afraid” of it.  When someone states they’ve done something, and tries to belittle the other person by assuming they haven’t, then that’s boasting.

While military service is laudable, it is not proof of patriotism.  Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan has also served in the military, as did Lee Harvey Oswald.  Does that prove they were patriots?

Many US Presidents never served.  Are they Unpatriotic?

[Bobbo]

WOW Bobbo, you show your true self in this thread and it smells of dung.

Please reread PAVALKER’s father’s quote.

[PAVALKER]

Many US Presidents never served.  Are they Unpatriotic?

Not quite correct.... many US Presidents have served in some capacity..... public government service even before their election to serve in that position of public service. 

[PAVALKER]

Wow. Do you really thing PA is bragging he served. WTF? Maybe he used it in his tag line cause he is HONORED to serve his Country.    (cant find my finger smiley)

While military service is laudable, it is not proof of patriotism.  Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan has also served in the military, as did Lee Harvey Oswald.  Does that prove they were patriots?

Another incorrect statement....  Military service in itself is NOT necessarily laudable.... as you were quick to  point out by citing Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan and Lee Harvey Oswald, neither of which received  an honorable discharge for honorable service, to the best of my knowledge.  However, many others, and I believe more than not (and I wouldn't think of including you in the more category of course) do consider sustained honorable service with honorable discharge to be laudable and even a demonstration of patriotism.  You might not agree with that, but, as you are quick to voice your own support of the constitution and laws, and defense of the freedom of speech, I agree that you are entitled to your opinion, as am I.

Additionally, your association of those two individuals with military service as a possible basis for what might appear to be discrediting military service as a whole or it's association with patriotism is disturbing.  As with most professions or careers, I'm sure you have quite a few examples of bad apples in yours as well.  Maybe even more, who knows. 

[Bobbo]

Additionally, your association of those two individuals with military service as a possible basis for what might appear to be discrediting military service as a whole or it's association with patriotism is disturbing.  As with most professions or careers, I'm sure you have quite a few examples of bad apples in yours as well.  Maybe even more, who knows. 

A soldier cannot discredit the military or military service, and my comment wasn’t intended to convey that message.   People join the military for a wide variety of reasons, and patriotism isn’t always one of them.  My point is that military service isn’t synonymous with patriotism.

[PAVALKER]

Additionally, your association of those two individuals with military service as a possible basis for what might appear to be discrediting military service as a whole or it's association with patriotism is disturbing.  As with most professions or careers, I'm sure you have quite a few examples of bad apples in yours as well.  Maybe even more, who knows. 

A soldier cannot discredit the military or military service, and my comment wasn’t intended to convey that message.   People join the military for a wide variety of reasons, and patriotism isn’t always one of them.  My point is that military service isn’t synonymous with patriotism.

Again not quite so accurate, Article 134 of the UCMJ   discusses bringing discredit upon the military service.  And the same analogy (not law) could apply to the civilian sector  where a bad apple brings discredit to a certain civilian profession or place of employment, etc.  You might not have intended your comments, and association of those bad apples with the Military, to convey that message of discredit, but I and probably  others could perceive it to be that way.   Probably, just as you perceived things differently during these and other internet message board rants.

[Alaskamike]

Wow.    This thread started out about a protest over immigration laws, enforcement and potential reform and has become one of who is … or who is not a patriot.  Who is… and who is not… loyal to our country and its principles.
Personal attacks are a convenient way of sidestepping the real issues.  This is the tactic taken by so many politicians.  One only has to see a few ads this November to see that issues are not in the forefront, personal slander is more popular.
The issue of how our country should handle illegal immigration is a hot button.  We all have our opinion, some apparently very strong.   I only wish we could set aside the blustering for a moment and recover our humanity and compassion.
This issue could be handled in a life affirming and gracious way if we would only apply some basic principles to it.   
•   When others wish to enter our country from outside, they often do so to seek a better life, not to tear our society down.    They are not the Devil.
•   If you come to America to live and work, you should abide by our laws and rules.   If you do not, and are caught in a felony, you should be immediately deported (and prosecuted ) and banned from ever returning
•   We speak ENGLISH here.    We do not have any reason to provide education, government forms, signs or anything else in any other language.  Get an interpreter and learn English if you plan to stay.   Citizenship should be predicated on a basic understanding of English, our laws, history and Constitution.
•   If you are law abiding, willing to work, follow our laws, and learn English, why would we want to keep you out?  Just because you were born somewhere else, is not, in my mind a justification for exclusion.  It is our immigration laws, which are so restrictive that are causing people to risk illegal immigration.   If we would loosen up a bit (read – skip the paranoia) – we would do ourselves and the world a great honor.
•   Our welfare system – and here I include food stamps, money for unwed mothers,  housing allowances, free medical care, and yes… unemployment that seems to go on almost forever,  leads to a resource burden on a society that cannot withstand more  lazy,  uneducated, and unproductive people.   If you want to be an American work, contribute, pay taxes, and abide by the laws.  If you do that, I don’t care who you are, where you are from, or what color you skin is.  You are welcome.   We have far too many of our own , American born citizens,  that do not contribute and have become dependent on constant care and support.   I would rather see a foreign born worker who contributes as my neighbor than some of the Americans I know with a “give me” mentality and little to no incentive to work for anything.
•   If you fear that foreign born workers will take your job, maybe they work a bit harder and longer than you do.  (I know this one will get me into trouble, but bear with me).    The way we move up in the world is not in undercutting what someone else will do a job for, it is in being more valuable to the company than someone else by our technical skill, understanding, education, and people skills.   If you are worried a minimum wage foreign born worker will steal your job, maybe you should think about increasing some of the qualities in yourself that make a person employable and a valued member of a work force team.    Better yet, find a need and fill it.  This is how almost all small companies are started.   No one is guaranteed work, no one deserves a job.  We all have to earn it.