Shifting

[cd195]

About 5 years ago, my 2001 Valk broke something in the transmission when the interlock that's supposed to keep the starter from turning when the engine is already on failed.  The dealer fixed that problem, but ever since then, the bike crunches when going into second, and slightly less so into third.  I know, it's been a while, but it's getting worse!  If the shift is at really low speed, it doesn't happen, and I can sometimes avoid it by barely pulling on the clutch lever and shifting rapidly.  My question is, what is the probable cause, and is there anything that can be done without tearing the engine apart?
Thanks!
Carlos

[SCain]

Don't know much about the valk transmission, but I would start with the clutch fluid, change it and make sure all the air is bled out.

[Ricky-D]

There is nothing in the electrical starting circuit that does what you have been told by the dealer.

Anytime you press the starter button (with the key "on"), the starter motor will energize. This is not to deny the other "no start" switches and their import.

No harm will come from pressing the starter button while the motor is running!

Your problem is something else!

***

[tybme]

Would you maybe describe it as a grinding noise when you are shifting from 1st to 2nd? Mine does that. I have been told that it's possibly the shifter being off a tooth or two. I haven't tried moving it yet to resolve the issue - winter plans.

[Red Diamond]

My Tourer always clunk or pop from 1st to 2nd. All the other up shifts are relatively quite. Sometimes it will clunk from the others but not often, I tend to shift soft and not hard. I also tend to think it is normal.

[RP#62]

Anytime you press the starter button (with the key "on"), the starter motor will energize. This is not to deny the other "no start" switches and their import.



***

Not exactly.  Key ON, kill switch ON, there is power to the start switch.  Push the start switch, and it gives power to the start relay.  The start relay however will only have a ground if the tranny is in neutral, or the clutch lever is pulled in (and the side stand is up).  Unless these conditions are met, the starter will not turn.

To Ricky's point though, crash engagements aren't good for starters or the gears they drive, but that should have no effect on the tranny or shifting.
-RP

[sandy]

Two possible solutions: Preload the shifter: put upward pressure on the shifter to remove slack. When you pull the clutch, finish the shift rapidly. Soft (or easy) shifting will yield uncertain shifting. Second: Use a good grade of synthetic oil. Most trannies smooth out a lot with synthetic oil.

[Rocketman]

Anytime you press the starter button (with the key "on"), the starter motor will energize. This is not to deny the other "no start" switches and their import.

Not exactly.  Key ON, kill switch ON, there is power to the start switch.  Push the start switch, and it gives power to the start relay.  The start relay however will only have a ground if the tranny is in neutral, or the clutch lever is pulled in (and the side stand is up).  Unless these conditions are met, the starter will not turn.

To Ricky's point though, crash engagements aren't good for starters or the gears they drive, but that should have no effect on the tranny or shifting.
-RP

I was assuming that he was referring to the "one way gear" that keeps the starter from grinding if you hit the button while the engine is running, rather than anything electrical. 
Since it's not a bendix, and is always engaged (or so I've been told), I can imagine that if it catches uncontrollably, something bad will happen.  Unfortunately, I don't know what.  I do know that mine has had similar (although less significant) issues with shifting.  I'd be happy to hear the resolution.  Sorry I'm not more help.

[Ricky-D]

Actually the comparison to a one way gear is the best description for the starter motor engagement although it is not a gear but a clutch assembly. I believe the part number is: 28125-MN5-014
When the motor is running and you energize the starter, the starter simply turns freely since it cant catch up with the motor which is turning faster. There is no gear meshing or movement.

But that is not what this thread is about!

CD195 was posting on a shifting problem, calling it a crunching in second and third gear.

Since the transmission is a constant mesh transmission where the gears are always engaged it would be reasonable to lay the problem (if indeed it is a shifting problem) on the shift drum and pawl assemblies. I think crunching is always a difficult description and is probably based in some respect to retained ideas about transmissions in automobiles, which we are all familiar with.

I would suggest a change to a different and heavier weight motor oil might make all the difference.

Maybe a synthetic motor oil would be the answer.

***

[Rocketman]

Actually the comparison to a one way gear is the best description for the starter motor engagement although it is not a gear but a clutch assembly. I believe the part number is: 28125-MN5-014
When the motor is running and you energize the starter, the starter simply turns freely since it cant catch up with the motor which is turning faster. There is no gear meshing or movement.

But that is not what this thread is about!

CD195 was posting on a shifting problem, calling it a crunching in second and third gear.

Since the transmission is a constant mesh transmission where the gears are always engaged it would be reasonable to lay the problem (if indeed it is a shifting problem) on the shift drum and pawl assemblies. I think crunching is always a difficult description and is probably based in some respect to retained ideas about transmissions in automobiles, which we are all familiar with.

I would suggest a change to a different and heavier weight motor oil might make all the difference.

Maybe a synthetic motor oil would be the answer.

You're right.  It's a clutch.  Sorry.  I was wrong.  I meant clutch, but misspoke (mis-typed?).
Additionally, you're right again.  That's not what this thread is about.  But, that's the ONLY thing you addressed in your post, so I thought I could help the discussion along by (I hope) clarifying what he said.
So far, you've told him that everything he knew about the problem was wrong, his description of the symptom was wrong, implied that he might not even have a problem, and stated that changing to a different type of oil might magically make it all go away.
It's possible that oil will help (I doubt it, since he implies the problem started after a specific incident), but you suggesting that, combined with all your other comments, sounds beyond dismissive.

If that clutch bound up, and was not releasing (my best interpretation of the problem as described originally), I would think it would tear up the starter motor, and possibly some other things. 
Whether it's described as crunching or not, he has a problem.  He didn't say it was a problem at the gears, so you ripping into him (or was it me?  It's hard to tell) about it being a constant mesh transmission sounds like you're just wanting to tell us all how smart you are.

Once again, I got dragged into a discussion with Ricky-D, and he ignores what he himself said just a few posts above, and then calls me out for referring to it.
I would love for this forum to have an "ignore user X" function, since I seem incapable of doing so on my own.  My apologies to CD195 for the further digression from the original post.

[cd195]

My thanks TO ALL for your efforts at helping me out.  To clarify the sub-thread issue, I just mentioned the starter problem to identify the problem that led to the dealer taking the engine apart.  The starter is no longer a problem, the dealer fixed it.  The problem is the grinding noise on the first-second shift.  I know the tranny is constant mesh, and I surmise that the grinding is coming from the synchronizer gear teeth.  My suspicion is that the shifter pawls and/or shifter drum is slightly mis-aligned for the first and second gear set.  I suspect (or am afraid!) that the only fix is to dismantle the engine and rebuild the tranny with everything up to spec as far as tolerances are concerned.  I was hoping, perhaps unreasonably, that there may be some magic way to fiddle with the outside of the engine/tranny assembly and resolve the problem.  Just for completeness, I should add that I'm running an Eaton M45 supercharger and reground cams, and that on advice of the cam regrinder, I'm running 30 weight Valvoline racing oil.   Other than the annoying grind from first to second, the bike has run excellently for years; very tractable on the street, but blindingly fast when I open it up, especially if I hit the nitrous bottles!

[tank_post142]

my guess is the probable cause is from juicing the engine!

[Jeff K]

  I know the tranny is constant mesh, and I surmise that the grinding is coming from the synchronizer gear teeth.  My suspicion is that the shifter pawls and/or shifter drum is slightly mis-aligned for the first and second gear set.  I suspect (or am afraid!) that the only fix is to dismantle the engine and rebuild the tranny with everything up to spec as far as tolerances are concerned. 

There are no synchronizer gears.
The starter uses an overrunning bearing to engage the starter.

I have repaired a couple of Valk transmissions for similar symptoms.  I replaced the shift fork and the slider. It is a major operation.