Valk performance sucks!!! (long)

[Jeff K]

Now, I had a Honda motorcycle mechanic make some comments, suggestions & would like to know what you all think.  He said my problem was not a lack of fuel, but too much air.  Said I should check ALL places where the engine could get air besides where it is supposed to.  He suggested I restrict the intake of the airbox with duct tape.  Said it would either run better or worse.  If it ran better, excess air is the problem, if worse then it is a fuel issue.  Make sense? 

To me... that doesn't make any sense.
If it's a lean condition it is a lack of fuel for the amount of available air. restricting the air would prove nothing other than the fact that it is lean. If you restrict the air and it runs better, it only proves that you don't have enough fuel for the amount of air supplied.

If a tube was leaking you'd have one plug showing lean, not all six.

[Skinhead]

To make the bike run lean, the Vacuum leak MUST be between the throttle and the Cylinder, If there is no vacuum leak, the lean condition could be caused by a restricted fuel flow, either supply from the tank, or flow through the various jets/orifi in the carb.  It could even be the float level set too low.  If you haven't changed any thing (adjusted float levels, etc) and the fuel system is known clean, could have been done by PO, I believe you said you had this problem from day 1??  One last thought occurred to me, Check the fuel screen at the petcock(in the tank) or replace it, it could be partially clogged and not allowing full flow under high demand.

[Ricky-D]

But I feel the suggestions even if all of them were relative to the actual conditions and were absolutely needed because of actual conditions on the bike;

What is happening with the bike is a lot greater that what can be corrected by making all of the suggested corrections because they were necessary!

The trike is suffering from a greater loss of power than what can be explained by all of the suggestions and comments.  C'mon, it can't bust 100mph!

That's why I suggested in an earlier posting that a compression test is really indicated here!

Not knowing the condition of the motor is tantamount to tying a new saddle on a dying horse expecting the horse to gallop faster.

As to the cost of a better geared rear end I cannot testify to the costs but with common rear ends there are a multitude of gearing choices and the junk yards are full of rear ends that could make the change for a pittance if a tradeout could be made. I think the greatest investment would be the time in investigating such a change.

So if the motor is in some accelerated state of wear, there is nothing so far suggested in this thread that can return it to a better condition except a rebuild.

However, if a worn motor is indeed the case, it could well have tens of thousands of miles left in it and a gear change to the rear end would then be the only practical way to achieve what he wants. 100mph+

***

[rodeo1]

i live over on the western slope @ 4000 ft. my valk balls to the wall will do about 110, take off the widshield and it will do 120.

i triked my wing and from that day on i couldn't get it above 100 mph, my brother triked his valk and lost 25 mph.

i would think your problem is a very normal function of wind drag bro.

valks and wings will spin around in circles smoking the tires after being triked. thats a function of torque, and has nothing to do with top end. if you are maxing the RPM and not getting above 100, its wind drag. motorcycles in general have really crappy aerodynamics, add a windheild and it has the wind drag of a cinder block, add the rear fenders of a trike and it has the drag of a mobile home, you know, there is no mod i have ever had that i liked as much as my trike kit, but a wise man once said, half of what you want is knowing what you have to give up to have it. i like my kwik kamp, it keeps the motel bedbugs out of my house, but i get 27 MPG towing it. worth it ? yup !

ride that sweet trike bro, and give a hollar when you decide to come over to the western slope. if i ain't gone rodeoing i'll meet ya for lunch. (i sync carbs free)

[Earl in Pensacola]

I think that due to the added weight, the gear ratio change and the added cofficient /wind drag (read as fat a$$) plus all the time, effort and $$ already spent, I'd either live with it or make at least one last effort by taking the rig to a "proven"  dyno/operator for analysis and adjustment etc.

PS: Your  compression should be even and right at 171 PSI!

Just another 2 cents

[MP]

I agree with going to a GOOD dyno guy, with the ability to analyze the exhaust gas.  Might have to do two runs, to test both sides.  Mine only had one probe for gas testing.

That result should tell you a LOT about power output and lean/rich conditions.  Compare that to hosers and others dyno runs.  They will not be exact, especially as to total power, but the CURVES should be pretty close.

I would not do ANYTHING else until I do that.  Otherwise, you are just shooting in the dark.

MP

[bassman]

I'm sure All the advise provided above is great and certainly above my understanding level so I need to go back to the beginning and need a little help please.  You have a 99 I/S that you triked out.....then you stated "The bike did have a 4* trigger wheel, which I replaced with a stock one".  I THOUGHT the I/S came stock with a 4* TW.   If you removed a 4* and replaced it with a "stock one", what was this stock replacement?  MAYBE a 6*??   OR did you change one 4* with another 4* of a different brand?   Perhaps if the replacement was a 6* it was too much advance and I THINK this adversly affects top end speed.  I may be reading this ALL wrong but just wanted to check or correct my understanding of the TW operation. 

[X Ring]

My understanding is the stock trigger wheels for all Valks are the same; however, you can replace the trigger wheel on an I/S with a 4*  but not a 6* as the I/S ICM advances faster than a Standard/Tourer's does.   

Marty

[Madmike]

.. have you checked to see if you are getting full throttle???????????

[Wolfgang1952]

Like Madmike said, have you checked to see if your carbs are opening fully?    And also what is the max RPM you can get in 4th gear before the rive limiter kicks in?     

[olddog1946]

I'm not sure how many times I've read this post and all the replies...almost enough to get confused, lol...I agree with the lean indication of the plugs, but not lean enough to be a real concern of causing any damage to the motor, the surging is a matter to be addressed (don't believe it to be normal on any motor)..I sincerely hope you are able to find and fix that problem, since a good running motor will help you figure out if there are additional problems...which in my opinion are indeed there...although I am by no means a professional mechanic, I have worked on cars, bikes, and numerous mechanical devices for my entire life and have had experience with the effects of gearing on performance and drive-ability and I can not believe that going from 4.10 to a 2.73 rear end gearing with a basically stock motor isn't the root cause of your poorer than expected 5th gear performance...
ALL of that said, I've got my fingers crossed that you indeed get this figured out and let us know what you had to do to your baby..

[X Ring]

Olddog, why do you think the final drive ratio of a non-triked Valk is 4.10?  The Honda shop manual clearly states it is 2.833.  2.73 is 98% of the stock final drive ratio.

Marty

[bassman]

My understanding is the stock trigger wheels for all Valks are the same; however, you can replace the trigger wheel on an I/S with a 4*  but not a 6* as the I/S ICM advances faster than a Standard/Tourer's does.   

Marty

Thanks for the 'spanation Marty..makes sense now...

[olddog1946]

Olddog, why do you think the final drive ratio of a non-triked Valk is 4.10?  The Honda shop manual clearly states it is 2.833.  2.73 is 98% of the stock final drive ratio.

Marty

Holy moly,,,I did some research via the internet to find out whether a goldwing rear would work in a Valk..I may be way off here, but what I found was 4.01 and 4.10...so If the rear end is indeed 2.83, the rear gearing should be just fine...I'll have to try an find where I found those numbers again...I could be hallucinating, or mis remembering, or heaven forbid,,,,WRONG... in the last couple of days I've gone to about 15 different sites, and have yet to find any numbers for the rear,,,just tranny gearing...but I'll keep looking til I find it again....my humbles apologies if I am wrong,,,what really matters is that the bike gets back to running properly...

[rodeo1]

i repeat - gold wing left side, valk right side ????????????

correction !!! just looked it up on the microphish, both are on the rt. side. [plus it would appear that all 97 and newer wings have the same rear end as the valks}

[X Ring]

Olddog, why do you think the final drive ratio of a non-triked Valk is 4.10?  The Honda shop manual clearly states it is 2.833.  2.73 is 98% of the stock final drive ratio.

Marty

Holy moly,,,I did some research via the internet to find out whether a goldwing rear would work in a Valk..I may be way off here, but what I found was 4.01 and 4.10...so If the rear end is indeed 2.83, the rear gearing should be just fine...I'll have to try an find where I found those numbers again...I could be hallucinating, or mis remembering, or heaven forbid,,,,WRONG... in the last couple of days I've gone to about 15 different sites, and have yet to find any numbers for the rear,,,just tranny gearing...but I'll keep looking til I find it again....my humbles apologies if I am wrong,,,what really matters is that the bike gets back to running properly...

Olddog, go here, http://valkyrienorway.com/download.html, and download the Shop Manual then look on page 1-5.

Marty

[FLATSIX]

Are you sure that you don't have an "export Valk" - those Valks exported to Europe and Australia have all a restricted airbox - if the restriction is removed then those bikes wont run good in higher rpm's because of too much air.

The US-bikes dont have this and they have standard bigger jets/

Only try to help ..........

[Madmike]

i repeat - gold wing left side, valk right side ????????????

correction !!! just looked it up on the microphish, both are on the rt. side. [plus it would appear that all 97 and newer wings have the same rear end as the valks}

..I always thought that the change came for the 98, 99 and 2000 Goldwings - they incorporated the changes introduced by teh Valk in 97.......

[old grouch]

Well, after trying everything suggested by all you folks, I have finally gotten some improvement.     The compression is somewhat low    (132-135) and appears to be related to valve wear/ burning, as squirting oil in the cylinders did not bring it up.  May do a valve job this winter.  I shimmed all six needles with 4 shims (approx 2 mm) and found a marked improvement.  Also noted a marked decrease in MPG.  Also showed a much better color on the plugs.  Using that info, I theorized that larger mains should accomplish the same performance increase, while not impacting the MPG as much.  So I installed 105 main jets.  I have not had the opportunity to open her up to see what the top end is now,  (why are there always a jillion cars on the road when I want to try this out?)  but there is a definite improvement in the upper RPM range in 5th gear.  (75 mph to 90 mph into a 30 mph headwind in less than 1/4 mi as opposed to over 1/2 mi in zero wind before;  able to pull a hill in 5th gear w/o losing speed, where I previously had to downshift in order to maintain speed on the same hill)  Gas mileage seems a bit better than with the shimmed needles, but not enough miles yet to be sure.  Guess maybe this is as good as it is going to get until I do the valves.  So once again, thanks for all the input & advice.  Stan

[Jeff K]

why do you think the compression is bad? Are they all about the same?
It doesn't look all that bad to me.

[old grouch]

Jeff
I thought the compression was supposed to be 171.  The numbers are as follows: 1 - 135;  3 - 132; 5 - 135;  2 - 132;  4 - 135;  6 - 132.  Seems low to me, but I am no expert.  Do you think lapping the valves is not worth the effort?  Stan

[Ricky-D]

Those figures are all Ok.

The main thing is that they are all very close in range and all are high enough.

***

[Sodbuster]

i repeat - gold wing left side, valk right side ????????????

correction !!! just looked it up on the microphish, both are on the rt. side. [plus it would appear that all 97 and newer wings have the same rear end as the valks}

..I always thought that the change came for the 98, 99 and 2000 Goldwings - they incorporated the changes introduced by teh Valk in 97.......

If you look at the Steve Saunders site the changes (shared components) started in '97
http://www.goldwingfacts.com/goldwinghistory.htm

[Chiefy]

Those figures are all Ok.

The main thing is that they are all very close in range and all are high enough.

***

And even if the numbers you got were low, I would suspect the gauge.  I can't imagine each cylinder wearing/leaking at exactly the same rate, as those numbers would suggest if they were low.

[Chiefy]

Well, after trying everything suggested by all you folks, I have finally gotten some improvement.     The compression is somewhat low    (132-135) and appears to be related to valve wear/ burning, as squirting oil in the cylinders did not bring it up.  May do a valve job this winter.  I shimmed all six needles with 4 shims (approx 2 mm) and found a marked improvement.  Also noted a marked decrease in MPG.  Also showed a much better color on the plugs.  Using that info, I theorized that larger mains should accomplish the same performance increase, while not impacting the MPG as much.  So I installed 105 main jets.  I have not had the opportunity to open her up to see what the top end is now,  (why are there always a jillion cars on the road when I want to try this out?)  but there is a definite improvement in the upper RPM range in 5th gear.  (75 mph to 90 mph into a 30 mph headwind in less than 1/4 mi as opposed to over 1/2 mi in zero wind before;  able to pull a hill in 5th gear w/o losing speed, where I previously had to downshift in order to maintain speed on the same hill)  Gas mileage seems a bit better than with the shimmed needles, but not enough miles yet to be sure.  Guess maybe this is as good as it is going to get until I do the valves.  So once again, thanks for all the input & advice.  Stan

Did the PO add something where he should have modified the carbs, but didn't?  Or did he perhaps do a poor job of modding the carbs (for whatever reason) himself?

[highcountry]

FWIW, I live and ride at similar elevation of 6000' in Parker and my plugs show a richer condition than yours.  I haven't pushed the Valk to 100+ but I zipped easily up to 90 in 5th with plenty power left.  From the comments to date, it appears that the carbs are set/running lean.  At our altitude, it is hard to believe that your Valk is getting too much air.  I also looked up the compression test data in my service manual and it confirms the 171 psi.

[Ricky-D]

Well the numbers just represent the relative condition of the motor within it's own envelope.

You may have difficulty trying to compare it to the manual specifications since you have no idea whether or not the same mechanical practice was used to capture the figures and the pressure gauge could certainly be suspect.

I say run it!

Don't expect it will be like a brand new motor, cause it isn't!  But so what!!

As long as it is not burning oil there is no reason to do anything but ride it.

I would not consider spending a ton on money to get to a point where you are already at.

Namely, riding the roads in style.

***

[John U.]

If the compression test was done at 6,000 feet elevation I would expect the psi test results to be reduced. Less dense air will still be less dense when under full compression. I don't think all of the difference you've reported could be accounted for by elevation but certainly some would.
I'd be curious to know what the readings would be at a lower elevation.

[old grouch]

   A VALK BURNING OIL??? SURELY you JEST!!  We are leaving Thursday on a trip down through New Mexico, Texas, along the gulf coast to Florida, then up through Georgia and the Carolinas, then through Tennessee, Arkansas, Kansas and back home.  Will throw the compression gauge (new) in and check it while we are at the timeshare in St. Augustine for a few days.  Should be pretty close to sea level there, doncha think?  I should also have gotten a pretty good feel for performance & mpg by the time we get home.  Will let y'all know what I find out when we get back.  Stan

[olddog1946]

I find myself in agreement with Ricky-D, in that your compression, though low according to the manual is actually acceptable since there is only a few lbs difference between cylinders..when you want to worry is when you have one that is off more than 10%...you might notice that no auto repair manual lists compression as a number any more, all they say is that they should be within a percentage..

Go enjoy your ride..save your cash for that "cheap" fuel you'll find on the trip...never in my life did I ever expect to be spending 4-500 bucks a month on gas for one bike...but do it now and actually enjoy it...who woulda thought?

I have not been able to find the site where I located the WRONG rear gearing,,,so pardon me...as long as you don't make me bleed I humbly stand corrected...

[X Ring]

I have not been able to find the site where I located the WRONG rear gearing,,,so pardon me...as long as you don't make me bleed I humbly stand corrected...

We all be human.  I'm wrong several times a day.

Marty

[Robert]

I am in agreement with Jeff K, lean and what would also help is more air with new main jets. My bike on full throttle exhibited the same things yours did so I went to a Factory Pro stage 2 kit ended that problem in a heart beat. It involves taking the baffle out of the air filter box larger jets 110 to 115 I do have a interstate icm with a 4 degree trigger and am regularly above 100 and so far have not topped it out at 130, a cruise at 115 is no problem. I doubt that compression is a problem and the needle nor idle jet would have to be changed if you didn't want to buy the kit just go for the mains. The plugs do show a lean condition typical for these bikes. Not to mention unless you do a full throttle run and shut the bike down at full throttle the plug color will not be accurate at that rpm. What you see is a average not a minute by minute color. Also if there was low compression the plug color more than likely would not be so clean.  I also dont think that gearing and wheel size is a problem. If it is, it is secondary to a lean condition. If you do a 38 idle lean out the needle and replace the mains the net result will be the top end your looking for and a little better mpg with a smoother idle and better transition to cruise of course with a less restrictive air filter. Just to give you a idea what these bikes without the restrictions of the airbox are capable of there is a older post of taking off the airbox and putting on velocity stacks. blackduck responded that he has 125 on mains.