L.E.D. tailight mod

[Brian]

Guys, I have a question for you electronic gurus. I recently swapped out the rear single filament sockets for the 1157 socket to add running lights on the rear. Painted the inside with the candy apple translucent red as directed from a previous thread and like the results, all works fine with the incandescent bulbs. Went to replace them with white LED's, LED's do not illuminate with the other running lights, each side works with the turn signal. Went back to the original bulbs, all is well.

Any suggestions to make them work on both circuits? Thanks.

[Bobbo]

Sounds like you are using 1156 style LED's or there's a polarity problem.  LED's need proper polarity to work, whereas incandescents don't care about polarity.

Also, you don't need white LED's.  You are paying extra to make a bunch of light frequencies, only to filter most of them out.  Simply pick the color you want, usually red...

[rhinor61]

I think you lost the ground wire to the 1157 socket since the turn signal uses the other sides postive to ground out when its not on.

Turn your bulb over and look at the bottom of the LED bulb. OO or O
1157 bulb bottom has 2 contact points on the bottom, 1156 has one contact point...


When I tried to do the 1157 socket conversation I have several issues:
1. Quick flash on the turn signals, so I upgraded to a solid state LED friendly flasher unit.

2. The running light is so bright that the blinker light is too hard to see with LED bulbs, so I switch back to incandescent bulbs until I run running/blinker wires from the from to drop the running light when the blinker is on- like it does in the front.

Note you want RED led bulbs for the rear with the lenses painted red.

John

[Brian]

Sounds like you are using 1156 style LED's or there's a polarity problem.  LED's need proper polarity to work, whereas incandescents don't care about polarity.

Also, you don't need white LED's.  You are paying extra to make a bunch of light frequencies, only to filter most of them out.  Simply pick the color you want, usually red...

They are 1157's, I have red ones and was going to take them back thinking they would not be bright enough. Polarity? I have the sockets wired just like the front signals using the shop manual diagram. The running lights are powered from the license plate wire.

[Brian]

I think you lost the ground wire to the 1157 socket since the turn signal uses the other sides postive to ground out when its not on.

Turn your bulb over and look at the bottom of the LED bulb. OO or O
1157 bulb bottom has 2 contact points on the bottom, 1156 has one contact point...


When I tried to do the 1157 socket conversation I have several issues:
1. Quick flash on the turn signals, so I upgraded to a solid state LED friendly flasher unit.

2. The running light is so bright that the blinker light is too hard to see with LED bulbs, so I switch back to incandescent bulbs until I run running/blinker wires from the from to drop the running light when the blinker is on- like it does in the front.

Note you want RED led bulbs for the rear with the lenses painted red.

John

I had to read this a few times to figure out that you were going to run wires from the front signals to the back to make them work the same. I suppose that this is not the easy way out to gain lights back there without melting the socket holder due to having bags on thus not allowing enough air to pass over them to keep the lights cool.

[MP]

I think you lost the ground wire to the 1157 socket since the turn signal uses the other sides postive to ground out when its not on.

Turn your bulb over and look at the bottom of the LED bulb. OO or O
1157 bulb bottom has 2 contact points on the bottom, 1156 has one contact point...


When I tried to do the 1157 socket conversation I have several issues:
1. Quick flash on the turn signals, so I upgraded to a solid state LED friendly flasher unit.

2. The running light is so bright that the blinker light is too hard to see with LED bulbs, so I switch back to incandescent bulbs until I run running/blinker wires from the from to drop the running light when the blinker is on- like it does in the front.

Note you want RED led bulbs for the rear with the lenses painted red.

John

I had to read this a few times to figure out that you were going to run wires from the front signals to the back to make them work the same. I suppose that this is not the easy way out to gain lights back there without melting the socket holder due to having bags on thus not allowing enough air to pass over them to keep the lights cool.

I do not think that will work.  The front marker lights are on all the time.  When you use the turn signal, it STOPS the power going to that side, so it flashes.  You are NOT adding flashers, you are stopping the marker lights, to make it into a turn signal.

MP

[X Ring]

I took Valkyrie front turn signal pods and swapped the wires so the wires colors would match then installed the pods on the rear turn signal bar.  I tapped the license plate light wire (brown) to power the running lights.  I used red 1157 LED bulbs I got at Autozone and Kury red lenses.  They are brighter than the taillight.  I did have to install a led turn signal flasher which I got from Custom Dynamics.  Even though there are 3 wires going into the stock flasher, their 2 wire led flasher worked perfectly.

Marty

[bentwrench]

I put frt. turn assm. on the rear of mine .I used a run/turn /brk. module for a dual brk lamp sprt bike.It was easy to wire in up at the rear harness connectors at the r/side cover.now the rear turns are also brk lamps.
With 48 leds in each T/S and the led board in the center brk lamp it put out a lot of light.the module also turns off the park lamp on that side when the t/sig is flashing.between the lamps,module and leds it was over 200.00$ but I think it was worth it .
bw

[Brian]

I took Valkyrie front turn signal pods and swapped the wires so the wires colors would match then installed the pods on the rear turn signal bar.  I tapped the license plate light wire (brown) to power the running lights.  I used red 1157 LED bulbs I got at Autozone and Kury red lenses.  They are brighter than the taillight.  I did have to install a led turn signal flasher which I got from Custom Dynamics.  Even though there are 3 wires going into the stock flasher, their 2 wire led flasher worked perfectly.

Marty

X-ring, I basically did the same thing but only painted the amber lenses on the inside with the translucent model paint. I picked the red LED's up at Autozone but then found super bright white LED's at the Honda dealership, so I bought these thinking them to be brighter. I wired them just as you have using the brown plate light wire for the run circuit. The signals do flash and not at a fast rate since I have double the turn signals up front, the LED's will not burn on the running circuit, where the incandescents do. Someone mentioned that polarity is important, this is puzzeling since the turn signal circuit burns. I know the lights work because the blister pack came internally wire with a 12v battery and two "try me" switches. I think I am going to take this as a polarity hint to see how they have the set wired.

[X Ring]

Hey Brian have you tried the red ones yet?  The problem may be with the white ones.

Marty

[Brian]

Hey Brian have you tried the red ones yet?  The problem may be with the white ones.

Marty

I was a wake early today 30 minutes before the alarm was going off, I headed out to the garage and open the blister pack of red LED's and they did work on both circuits. Great minds think a like, who would have thought this to be this way. Needless to say the white ones are going to the dealer tomorrow, and you are correct about the red ones not being too bright with the running circuit lit at the same time, I put the incandescent bulbs back in. I plan to make these sockets work just like the fronts signals and then go back with the LED's.  Thanks for all input on this site.

[X Ring]

Brian, mine are brighter than my taillight.  Of course that may be due to the Kury lenses being red clear.

Marty

[rhinor61]

I think you lost the ground wire to the 1157 socket since the turn signal uses the other sides postive to ground out when its not on.

Turn your bulb over and look at the bottom of the LED bulb. OO or O
1157 bulb bottom has 2 contact points on the bottom, 1156 has one contact point...


When I tried to do the 1157 socket conversation I have several issues:
1. Quick flash on the turn signals, so I upgraded to a solid state LED friendly flasher unit.

2. The running light is so bright that the blinker light is too hard to see with LED bulbs, so I switch back to incandescent bulbs until I run running/blinker wires from the from to drop the running light when the blinker is on- like it does in the front.

Note you want RED led bulbs for the rear with the lenses painted red.

John

I had to read this a few times to figure out that you were going to run wires from the front signals to the back to make them work the same. I suppose that this is not the easy way out to gain lights back there without melting the socket holder due to having bags on thus not allowing enough air to pass over them to keep the lights cool.

I do not think that will work.  The front marker lights are on all the time.  When you use the turn signal, it STOPS the power going to that side, so it flashes.  You are NOT adding flashers, you are stopping the marker lights, to make it into a turn signal.

MP

The front turn signal uses a dual element bulb 1157 style.. 1st element is the running light the 2nd element is the turn signal.
When the turn signal is on, it cuts power to the running light element, so it makes the turn signal to transition from ON- OFF.

Installing a dual element socket to the rear and just tapping off your rear license plate light wire your 1st element will ALWAYS be on, thus  making it harder to see when the blinker is ON, especially during day light..

IF you think I am wrong, read the electrical diagram.. or just watch your from turn signal work..

John

[Brian]

rhinor61, yes I stated that in this thread that I noticed the running is lit all the time. I have looked at the wiring for the fronts and plan to change it here as soon as this darn hot weather moves out. At the same time I am going to change the light bar relay trigger source to a different circuit to provide a redundant headlight control source taking it away from the start button.

X-ring, Do the kury red lights fit a 97? I did not see that as they appear to only use the one mounting screw.

[X Ring]

I used the one screw turnsignal pods on my '97 Tourer cause I wanted to use the Kury lenses.  I think they look better.

Marty

[X Ring]

Just had a thought Brian.  You're using red leds through an amber lens that you painted red.  It's probably cutting down on the light transmission.  You could try clear lenses.  I think I might have some around I could send you.  Let me look.

Marty

[Bobbo]

Just had a thought Brian.  You're using red leds through an amber lens that you painted red.  It's probably cutting down on the light transmission.  You could try clear lenses.  I think I might have some around I could send you.  Let me look.

Marty

The stock amber lens passes over 90% of the light from a red LED.  Unless you don't like the lens to look amber when the lights are off, this is the easiest.

[X Ring]

Bobbo, he painted the inside of the lens with candy apple clear model paint.  It probably cut the light transmission even more.

Marty

[bentwrench]

I tried the candy paint and didn't care for it .went with red lens from clear alternatives.seems to let out more light than the painted ones.
BW

[Brian]

Guys,
The painted amber lenses is why I was going to try the super bright white LED's. I painted the lenses from the used valk signals I bought. I still have the OEM amber lenes to try with the red LED's to see how they look. I am not picky on what color the lens are back there as long as I am adding more lights. this dragon is the standard with only the Leatherlyke bags. So my choices are slim to keep it looking good and still be functional.

X-ring, the offer for your clear lens is awesome and greatly appreciated as long as they are for the OEM two screw pods. I will be glad to compensate you if you find them and want to give them up. I am heading out of town this Sunday and won't have access to a computer. My e-mail address is snickly@earthlink.net where we can exchange mailing addresses.

Thanks guys.

[Bobbo]

Bobbo, he painted the inside of the lens with candy apple clear model paint.  It probably cut the light transmission even more.

Marty

I'm sure it did!  I only mentioned it because the red paint is unnecessary with red LED's

[RonW]

"....I noticed the running is lit all the time. I have looked at the wiring for the fronts and plan to change it."

On my other bike, I tapped the corresponding "stripped wire" in the front signal's running light circuit to make the rear signals running lights. Two separate taps, left and right. In this configuration, the rear running lights mimic the fronts. They're switched off when their signals are activated. I know the tail light +12 wire is within easy reach, but this method takes advantage of the built-in over ride.




The wiring above won't work using the stock 1156's without splicing in a diode because something easily overlooked. Speaking from experience, too. In its simplest schematic, the front and rear high-filaments are hard wire together, rears have only a high-filament with the stock 1156's. The flasher does not send a separate signal through a separate wire to the front and a separate signal through another wire to the rear to activate which ever side.




Since the front and rear are hard wired together, any +12 tapped into the common wire will backfeed to the front high-filament. You'll end up with double intensity running lights up front. The high-filament will remain constant ON. Meanwhile, the front low-filament will be constant ON as it's designed to be whenever that side blinkers aren't flashing.




Proof positive, below, photo taken during running-light mode. The low-filament will though shut off during flashing mode. However, the high-filament will not. Does the high-filament being constant ON diminish the flashing pulses, filling in the dark moments between each flash? As contradictory as it may seem, any negative effect is nominal. This is with using standard bulbs. Some have used brighter tail light bulbs up front, 23/8W vs. 21/5W (1157's). Other than that, the shells get hotter and it's just extra electricity.

[Brian]

"....I noticed the running is lit all the time. I have looked at the wiring for the fronts and plan to change it."

On my other bike, I tapped the corresponding "stripped wire" in the front signal's running light circuit to make the rear signals running lights. Two separate taps, left and right. In this configuration, the rear running lights mimic the fronts. They're switched off when their signals are activated. I know the tail light +12 wire is within easy reach, but this method takes advantage of the built-in over ride.




The wiring above won't work using the stock 1156's without splicing in a diode because something easily overlooked. Speaking from experience, too. In its simplest schematic, the front and rear high-filaments are hard wire together, rears have only a high-filament with the stock 1156's. The flasher does not send a separate signal through a separate wire to the front and a separate signal through another wire to the rear to activate which ever side.




Since the front and rear are hard wired together, any +12 tapped into the common wire will backfeed to the front high-filament. You'll end up with double intensity running lights up front. The high-filament will remain constant ON. Meanwhile, the front low-filament will be constant ON as it's designed to be whenever that side blinkers aren't flashing.




Proof positive, below, photo taken during running-light mode. The low-filament will though shut off during flashing mode. However, the high-filament will not. Does the high-filament being constant ON diminish the flashing pulses, filling in the dark moments between each flash? As contradictory as it may seem, any negative effect is nominal. This is with using standard bulbs. Some have used brighter tail light bulbs up front, 23/8W vs. 21/5W (1157's). Other than that, the shells get hotter and it's just extra electricity.

Thanks ronw, good info. I will dig into this next weekend when I return home. One question here, is the front signal wiring under the right side cover and seat by chance? The last time I was in there I forgot to look for the flasher relay. Figured the wiring harness would start forward from there.

[X Ring]

Flasher relay is on the front of the battery box.  The connections for the front turnsignals can be found in the headlight shell.

Marty

[RonW]

I did the reference 'tap' on my Shadow 600, so I don't know the ideal place to tap into a Valk's front running light wire, er, break into the sheathing, etc. Honda wires are color-coded the same though. For example, ORANGE for left-side signals. That is, solid ORANGE for high-filament, ORANGE with a white stripe for low-filament and so forth. The disadvantage is that you'll have to route the tap from the front all the way to the rear. I retrofitted an extra slot in my fuse box allowing me to power the rear running lights through a relay connecting the taps to the relay's #86 trigger terminal so the rear running lights didn't siphon electricity from the front running light circuit. Perhaps, overkill. Just for peace of mind.

[X Ring]

Like I said, you can find all three wires for each turnsignal pod in the headlight shell.

Marty

[Brian]

Like I said, you can find all three wires for each turnsignal pod in the headlight shell.

Marty

x-ring, I am wondering if you have found the clear lenses you mentioned? I am still out of town and just found a wy fi source here at MacDonalds.

[X Ring]

Haven't been to my storage unit.  May be able to make it there tomorrow.

Marty

[MarkT]

Now that you've been advised by the whole club practically, on how everybody's idea is the best - here's MY best idea:  I too installed 1157 sockets in the rear.  You are correct, filiment bulbs on all the time will eventually melt the plastic inside and the guts will drop out, if you have saddle bags.  Ruined two pairs of sockets that way.  I installed a night switch so they were on only at night, and then the coolness of the night stopped the melting problem.  I have since gone to LED arrays, which don't get hot.  Mine are now wired with relays, that provide run, turn, and stop lights.  I'm using red LED arrays with clear lenses.  BTW, the circuit I designed, will also provide run, turn, and stop on the marker lights, with 1156 bulbs - that is, single filiment.  I wrote up the mod in detail on my tech tips page here:  http://www.horseapple.com/Valkyrie/Tech_Tips/VTX_signals/vtx_signals.html  Here's what the schematic looks like:




These are VTX pods with clear lenses, holding 1157 sockets with red LED arrays.  Though like I said - I could have done it without changing to dual filiment sockets - and so can you, if you want to save yourself the trouble.

[RonW]

Still amazed how you thought off using the relay's 87 and 87a outputs as inputs (schematic). A smart OR gate if ever there was one.

[MarkT]

Still amazed how you thought off using the relay's 87 and 87a outputs as inputs (schematic). A smart OR gate if ever there was one.

Thanks for the kudos - much as I like the credit for innovative thinking, that might have come from my Applied Computer Science edumacation at U.W. - specifically ACS350, Digital Circuits I think it was:  designing and building digital circuits using digital logic: NAND & NOR gates etc.  It was an interesting class, using logic equations and deriving them into circuits - I would be interested in post graduate studies in this discipline - though I've been too busy since to go there.

[Brian]

Thanks guys. This is great info.