oil testing

[98valk]

anybody have any experience with this type of oil testing?
looks interesting

http://www.fluidtesting.com/index.htm

[Jim Ross]

I am NOT an expert on this topic, but I have been watching this oil analysis thing for quite some time.
I guess my first thought is that I am skeptical of just going by color on whether or not the oil is good or bad.
For instance, years ago there was an oil (ARCO) that had graphite in it as a lubricant and it was black when it came out of the can brand new.  I'm thinking with this test arrangement that this particular oil would be considered as used or bad right out of the can, brand new.....?
Right now, I am driving a Cummins diesel and it is a late model with an "internal" EGR system and it turns the oil black virtually over night.  I am experimenting with different by-pass filters in order to find something that will keep the oil looking "not so black".
Currently I have an Ams/Oil dual by-pass filter set-up mounted on the frame and that set-up filters to 2 microns "absolute", but my oil is still black.  I have an idea in my head of mounting a Frantz filter along with the Ams/Oil by-pass filters to see if that will keep my oil "clear".
I know that in agricultural soil testing, the spectrometer method works, but I am not so convinced in this situation.
And again, I am NOT an expert, just an experimenter.

[98valk]

yep EPA environmental commies enforce EGR on diesels which reduces MPG city driving but increases MPG hwy, reason for the new higher cost diesel oils to deal with the soot from the EGR. This increases everybodies cost which translates into inflation permately in the system now.
u cannot filter the oil enough too keep it clear if soot is being put back in all of the time. well maybe with a couple of large toiler paper filters. The new oil is designed for the soot and keeps it in suspension and was throughly tested for engine life. UOA is what u are going to have to rely on.
there were somes articles on this at http://www.machinerylubrication.com/
http://www.lngpublishing.com/LNGmagazine/index.cfm

[Bobbo]

yep EPA environmental commies enforce EGR on diesels which reduces MPG city driving but increases MPG hwy, reason for the new higher cost diesel oils to deal with the soot from the EGR. This increases everybodies cost which translates into inflation permately in the system now.
u cannot filter the oil enough too keep it clear if soot is being put back in all of the time. well maybe with a couple of large toiler paper filters. The new oil is designed for the soot and keeps it in suspension and was throughly tested for engine life. UOA is what u are going to have to rely on.
there were somes articles on this at http://www.machinerylubrication.com/
http://www.lngpublishing.com/LNGmagazine/index.cfm

How does an EGR system put soot into the lubricating oil?

[Jim Ross]

EGR recirculates part of the exhaust gas back into the intake stream....so in simple terms, "dirty" air is being introduced into the engine and part of it gets "caught" by the oil and ends up in the crank case---as I said, a very simple explanation.
Not only has the EGR on newer diesel pickups decreased the economy of city driving---it has DESTROYED the highway economy.  As a for instance; my 2 trucks virtually identical in weight, driveline, gearing, transmissions, etc, etc.....one an '01 Cummins without EGR and the other an '07 with EGR.  The '01 gives 20-22 Hwy running empty and 14-15 pulling trailers.  The '07 same engine with EGR gets 14 running empty and 10-12 pulling the same trailers.

[Bobbo]

EGR recirculates part of the exhaust gas back into the intake stream....so in simple terms, "dirty" air is being introduced into the engine and part of it gets "caught" by the oil and ends up in the crank case---as I said, a very simple explanation.

If a tiny amount of low pressure exhaust from the EGR can find it's way into the oil, what prevents the HUGE amount of high pressure exhaust (from combustion) from getting into the oil?   ???

[Jim Ross]

Well, there are other items that control it, like an EGR valve, crankcase venting and other magic stuff the engine designers come up with.  Many of the modern diesels have turbo chargers and they probably play some role, too.  The computer makes so many adjustments in far less than 1 second that  control injection timing, duration, exhaust gas temp......it is far too complicated for me to understand!
I have been told that in my '07 Cummins all the EGR system is "internal", I guess that is to keep guys like us from blocking it off, defeating its purpose and generally experimenting or hot-rodding.  The cam  and cam timing and Lord only knows what else would have to be changed and then the computer would probably not recognize the new cam profile and cause the engine to run rough or not at all.
I miss the old days of rotors and points and high octane fuel and when guys like us could work on our own stuff with out needing mega-dollars worth of electronic diagnostic equipment.

[Bobbo]

Well, there are other items that control it, like an EGR valve, crankcase venting and other magic stuff the engine designers come up with.  Many of the modern diesels have turbo chargers and they probably play some role, too.  The computer makes so many adjustments in far less than 1 second that  control injection timing, duration, exhaust gas temp......it is far too complicated for me to understand!
I have been told that in my '07 Cummins all the EGR system is "internal", I guess that is to keep guys like us from blocking it off, defeating its purpose and generally experimenting or hot-rodding.  The cam  and cam timing and Lord only knows what else would have to be changed and then the computer would probably not recognize the new cam profile and cause the engine to run rough or not at all.
I miss the old days of rotors and points and high octane fuel and when guys like us could work on our own stuff with out needing mega-dollars worth of electronic diagnostic equipment.

EGR has been used to control Oxides of Nitrogen (NOx, a pollutant) since the early 70's, it's hardly magic...  Since EGR slightly reduces oxygen in the A/F mixture, I can see where it can produce a small amount of additional free carbon (soot).  My original question was asking how a small amount of additional soot can make a large impact on oil contamination.  CA claimed it put soot into the oil faster than a filter can remove it, and that didn't make sense.

[98valk]

Well, there are other items that control it, like an EGR valve, crankcase venting and other magic stuff the engine designers come up with.  Many of the modern diesels have turbo chargers and they probably play some role, too.  The computer makes so many adjustments in far less than 1 second that  control injection timing, duration, exhaust gas temp......it is far too complicated for me to understand!
I have been told that in my '07 Cummins all the EGR system is "internal", I guess that is to keep guys like us from blocking it off, defeating its purpose and generally experimenting or hot-rodding.  The cam  and cam timing and Lord only knows what else would have to be changed and then the computer would probably not recognize the new cam profile and cause the engine to run rough or not at all.
I miss the old days of rotors and points and high octane fuel and when guys like us could work on our own stuff with out needing mega-dollars worth of electronic diagnostic equipment.

EGR has been used to control Oxides of Nitrogen (NOx, a pollutant) since the early 70's, it's hardly magic...  Since EGR slightly reduces oxygen in the A/F mixture, I can see where it can produce a small amount of additional free carbon (soot).  My original question was asking how a small amount of additional soot can make a large impact on oil contamination.  CA claimed it put soot into the oil faster than a filter can remove it, and that didn't make sense.

there is this handy little thing now called google, it is simply amazing! 

 http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/51/soot-oil-engine
"Soot, comprised 98% of carbon by weight, is formed during the combustion process and enters the crankcase with combustion gas blow-by. Soot particles have a near spherical shape and originate in the .01 to .05 micron size range, but tend to agglomerate to form larger particles. Research into soot particles suggests that the size distribution during normal operation varies, but averages about .078 micron with a skew to the right due to the dominance of small particles (see Figure 1). Normally, soot generated during combustion exits via the engine's exhaust system.

Recent regulations limiting the emission of NOx and soot has led to the employment of exhaust gas recirculation (EGR). Certain diesel engine manufacturers have recently negotiated an agreement with the EPA that has resulted in a settlement to tighten emissions by October of 2002, largely through the introduction of new emission control technology like EGR. EGR essentially sends the emissions back to the combustion chamber creating a multi-pass opportunity for soot to ingress to the lubricant. An EGR valve regulates how much exhaust gas is recirculated. At idle, about 70% of the exhaust gas is recirculated, while only about 10-20% is recirculated at full load. While EGR does effectively reduce NOx and soot emissions to the atmosphere, soot loads in the lubricant can be expected to increase dramatically, causing increased temperature and viscosity, dispersancy failure, fouling, deposits and wear. "

[Bobbo]

there is this handy little thing now called google, it is simply amazing! 

 http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/51/soot-oil-engine
"Soot, comprised 98% of carbon by weight, is formed during the combustion process and enters the crankcase with combustion gas blow-by. Soot particles have a near spherical shape and originate in the .01 to .05 micron size range, but tend to agglomerate to form larger particles. Research into soot particles suggests that the size distribution during normal operation varies, but averages about .078 micron with a skew to the right due to the dominance of small particles (see Figure 1). Normally, soot generated during combustion exits via the engine's exhaust system.

Recent regulations limiting the emission of NOx and soot has led to the employment of exhaust gas recirculation (EGR). Certain diesel engine manufacturers have recently negotiated an agreement with the EPA that has resulted in a settlement to tighten emissions by October of 2002, largely through the introduction of new emission control technology like EGR. EGR essentially sends the emissions back to the combustion chamber creating a multi-pass opportunity for soot to ingress to the lubricant. An EGR valve regulates how much exhaust gas is recirculated. At idle, about 70% of the exhaust gas is recirculated, while only about 10-20% is recirculated at full load. While EGR does effectively reduce NOx and soot emissions to the atmosphere, soot loads in the lubricant can be expected to increase dramatically, causing increased temperature and viscosity, dispersancy failure, fouling, deposits and wear. "

Yes, Google can find several articles.  Ones with actual measurement data rather than assumptions and speculation meant to drum up sales for their blog style newsletter... 

http://pid.sagepub.com/content/217/8/719.full.pdf

70% exhaust recirculation at idle?!  Really?!  How could it sustain a combustion flame with virtually no oxygen?      The actual testing shows a MAXIMUM of 15% recirculation, with 12% being the typical light load amount.

Other actual measured reports show a reduction in oil life of about 10-20%, and engines with EGR usually have slightly larger oil capacity to bring it back to typical oil life, hardly the catastrophic picture you are painting...

[98valk]

that is a trade publication not a blog, it is not trying to sell anything.
Your continued lack of full understanding of things and then your picking apart of things in a way to make yourself look superior is amazing and sad. 
your a lost soul and u need the King of Kings in your heart and soul, otherwise u will become more unhappy than u are now.
end of converstion!

[Bobbo]

that is a trade publication not a blog, it is not trying to sell anything.
Your continued lack of full understanding of things and then your picking apart of things in a way to make yourself look superior is amazing and sad. 
your a lost soul and u need the King of Kings in your heart and soul, otherwise u will become more unhappy than u are now.
end of converstion!

A "trade publication" who's main purpose is subscription sales, from what I see of it.  The article was more opinion that fact.

If I'm the one who's lacking in full understanding, please explain your statement that EGR "increases MPG hwy".  How can reduced efficiency increase MPG?

Also explain this one:  "u cannot filter the oil enough too keep it clear if soot is being put back in all of the time"  Diesel engines put soot into the oil all the time, EGR or not.  Do you mean that EGR is responsible for all of this soot?

This is the tech board.  Please don't make up stuff to fit your political opinion, and there's no need to preach to me about being unhappy, because I'm not!

[98valk]

that is a trade publication not a blog, it is not trying to sell anything.
Your continued lack of full understanding of things and then your picking apart of things in a way to make yourself look superior is amazing and sad. 
your a lost soul and u need the King of Kings in your heart and soul, otherwise u will become more unhappy than u are now.
end of converstion!

A "trade publication" who's main purpose is subscription sales, from what I see of it.  The article was more opinion that fact.

If I'm the one who's lacking in full understanding, please explain your statement that EGR "increases MPG hwy".  How can reduced efficiency increase MPG?

Also explain this one:  "u cannot filter the oil enough too keep it clear if soot is being put back in all of the time"  Diesel engines put soot into the oil all the time, EGR or not.  Do you mean that EGR is responsible for all of this soot?

This is the tech board.  Please don't make up stuff to fit your political opinion, and there's no need to preach to me about being unhappy, because I'm not!

if u went to the site u would see that the publications are generally free.
search engine emissions systems and learn what they do and how they work.
why don't u read closely all of the post instead of speed read and miss certain points. The person I was writing to completely understood my post and didn't ask any addtional questions.
why do u not understand?
"CA claimed it put soot into the oil faster than a filter can remove it,"   NEVER wrote that, U added to my statement and twisted it around to start an argument something u do with all of your post. Thats a very sad way to be. 
If u are so knowlegable about the subject why don't u post some info?

[Bobbo]

that is a trade publication not a blog, it is not trying to sell anything.
Your continued lack of full understanding of things and then your picking apart of things in a way to make yourself look superior is amazing and sad. 
your a lost soul and u need the King of Kings in your heart and soul, otherwise u will become more unhappy than u are now.
end of converstion!

A "trade publication" who's main purpose is subscription sales, from what I see of it.  The article was more opinion that fact.

If I'm the one who's lacking in full understanding, please explain your statement that EGR "increases MPG hwy".  How can reduced efficiency increase MPG?

Also explain this one:  "u cannot filter the oil enough too keep it clear if soot is being put back in all of the time"  Diesel engines put soot into the oil all the time, EGR or not.  Do you mean that EGR is responsible for all of this soot?

This is the tech board.  Please don't make up stuff to fit your political opinion, and there's no need to preach to me about being unhappy, because I'm not!

if u went to the site u would see that the publications are generally free.
search engine emissions systems and learn what they do and how they work.
why don't u read closely all of the post instead of speed read and miss certain points. The person I was writing to completely understood my post and didn't ask any addtional questions.
why do u not understand?
"CA claimed it put soot into the oil faster than a filter can remove it,"   NEVER wrote that, U added to my statement and twisted it around to start an argument something u do with all of your post. Thats a very sad way to be. 
If u are so knowlegable about the subject why don't u post some info?

Instead of answering my questions challenging your statements, you just keep saying I don't understand things.  Why do you avoid my request?  Is that because you cannot back up your exaggerated and incorrect statements with facts?

Read your quoted text and tell me how my paraphrase doesn't represent your statement.  I'm not twisting your statements, but challenging them.

I did post information on this subject.  Results of a study on emissions, including details of the findings and actual measurements of soot production with EGR systems.

Until you explain your statements with facts, there is no use bantering back and forth with me asking you for proof, and you simply saying I don't understand...   

[98valk]

the link u provided is a test using natural gas and variable EGR for a dual fueled diesel engine. So again u use something as a mis-direction, the link/test has nothing to do with the post I made and JR made and the info from a trade pubilcation. your paraphasing changes the intent of statements, just like good liberal politicians and lawyers do. Being deceitful.
Your a mess, very sad.     

Psalms 52:2-4, "Thy tongue deviseth mischiefs; like a sharp razor, working deceitfully. Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah. Thou lovest all devouring words, O thou deceitful tongue."

[Farther]

Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."

John 7:24. There, Jesus tells  us to judge, but to do so righteously. Righteously means to use the Truth of the Word to discern sins and not  by appearances only. In 1Cor. 6:2-3 Jesus authorizes us to judge. Judge we must else we could not discern good from bad, proper from improper, righteousness from evil. But judge behavior,  not the individual; the deed  not the doer; the choice  not the chooser. The individual/doer/chooser is accountable for his/her deed/choice, but judge the deed/choice in your judgment. Jesus could see a king in a shepherd boy. And an Apostle in a murderer. So while we must judge one's behavior we must we try to nurture the goodness in an individual: to separate the deed from the doer.

[Bobbo]

Your a mess, very sad.    

Wow...

You quite often post information and commentary here on the Tech Board that appears to fit your political agenda rather than factual information.  When that is challenged, instead of providing proof or further information, you simply attempt to ridicule and give religious advice to the challenger.  

If your goal is to constantly interject politics, paranoia, and religion into the Tech Board, please reserve that for the Sandbox (General Board).