CT rubbing?

[Ferris Leets]

So it's not a new topic.  I know search is my friend but I do not find what I need most of the time so here I am.  Feel free not to respond.
      I put a CT on about 10K ago and had no problem.  I removed the nut cage.  Recently I acquired a new girlfriend and took her for a ride, no problem, nice straight road.  Next time out a twisty road and I smell burnt rubber.  The little extra weight apparently was enough to rub the tire. 
      Today I pulled the tire off and found that it is rubbing on the FRONT bolt head.  Lots of measurements and I found that the fender is off center at both bolts by about 1/2".  I read about shimming the fender over but for the life of me I can not see how it can work.  The fender is on the inside of the frame rails.  If I put shims on the left side I don't see how it will move the fender because the other side is against the other frame rail.  Seems like the bolt head is going to stay in the same relative position.  Help? 

[Ferris Leets]

Aha.  Some one must have replaced that with a bolt.  The head is on the inside and the nut is on the out side.  It is metric but I was already suspicious that it was an after market bolt.  I already have the tire off.
   The fender is on the inside of that piece of frame.  I am not at the bike now so I can not check but are you sure that the thread is in the frame not the fender?  The outside is where the rear crash bars are mounted.

[sugerbear]

replace all four bolts with carrage bolts from the inside. if you haven't grind off the nut cages.

done.

p.s. they don't HAVE to be metric.

[Ferris Leets]

I think from what I saw today that even a carriage bolt will be too high.I already did the nut cage mod on the back 2, the front do not have nut cages.

[Ferris Leets]

Aha.  Some one must have replaced that with a bolt.  The head is on the inside and the nut is on the out side.  It is metric but I was already suspicious that it was an after market bolt.  I already have the tire off.
   The fender is on the inside of that piece of frame.  I am not at the bike now so I can not check but are you sure that the thread is in the frame not the fender?  The outside is where the rear crash bars are mounted.

I am sure the frame is threaded.  When you get the tire off you should see a cone shape inside the the frame.  A thought just occurred to me.  I wonder if the previous owner decided to make his own quick drop bag system and instead of using all thread or cutting the head off a bolt, he just threaded the bolt through from the outside.  I bet when you get the wheel removed, you'll find exactly that. 

Marty

I have the tire off and that is not what I saw.  The fender is on the INSIDE of the frame members.  The bolt head is on the inside with a nut on the outside, with what looks like a three tiered spacer(looks like 3 washers of different diameters staked but is one piece).  Not threaded into the frame at all.

[Ferris Leets]

X-Ring,
    Reread my first post.  That is what I found.  I saw the cone shape but it is the fender that has the cone shape in it.
    My second post reiterated that the bolt head was on the inside of the fender.  I did not unthread a bolt from the frame, I took off a nut and pushed the bolt in and removed it.

[Challenger]

Had the same thing with my GTT when loaded and two up, set the shocks up one notch and all is good again, (YMMV)

[Ferris Leets]

Had the same thing with my GTT when loaded and two up, set the shocks up one notch and all is good again, (YMMV)

Probably would work but does not fix the problem.  The suspension should be able to operate as designed not come up against a tire on a heavy bump.

[Ferris Leets]

thanks for the info.  I will be looking at it in the morning.  I may be able to get enough clearance by facing the bolt head to a minimal height on the lathe.

[John Schmidt]

The front fender bolts are screwed into the FENDER, it has a plate nut welded in place. The rear ones don't. Neither the front or rear bolts screw into the frame that the fender is mounted to, the frame has no threads there. If you have a front bolt screwed in from the inside to the outside....that's your problem. Remove it, cut the head off and screw the bolt in from the outside using a double nut. Leave enough showing so you can hang your saddlebag frame on it.

[Ricky-D]

If you remove the rear section of the rear fender it will make it a lot easier to see what's going on.

***

[Ferris Leets]

You are WRONG!!!!
      I just went and looked at it.  I took a friend who is also a machinist,  I am a manufacturing engineer.  We have the rear tire off and can  see the inside clearly.  The fender is on the INSIDE of the frame.  I will gladly apologize if I am wrong but I can say for a fact that on my IS the luggage mounts on are the outside, then the chrome rails, then the FRAME, and the fender is on the inside.
      The PO must have screwed up the threads in the fender, drilled out the threads and installed a 10 mm bolt with the head on the inside.  I am going to face off the head to minimum and try that.  Oulling the fender and ruining the paint by rewelding is not what I want to do.  I might have to pull it and use a helicoil.

[Ferris Leets]

Don't mean to be high and might but that is what I see.  There is no way that my fender will fit on the outside of the frame.  I can not take pictures but it is very easy to see by just removing the seat.  Like I said I will be glad to apologize,  your story would make it much easier to fix.  But right now I only have your word you are right and my observations that you are wrong.
    If you have pictures or an assembly diagram I would like to see them.
    At that point I could have gotten really insulting but all I want is the correct info.  And getting pissed at someone because you disagree with their facts is not very mature.

[Ferris Leets]

To myself- detune, regroup, start over.
     If you are near your bike pull the seat off.  Tell me if you can see that rear section of frame.  On my bike the fender extends down past the frame in that area so it would not fit on the outside.  I can clearly see that the frame is between the side rails and the fender.  From the underside I do not see any frame inside of the fender.  The fender has a "cone" at the point of attachment.  From my analysis of the geometry it looks like the fender should be tapped inside that cone.  On mine is no evidence of any threads either in the frame or the fender.
  Sorry if I offended you but this is what I am seeing.

[gordonv]

First, relax, the people here are trying to help you out. There is just a communication gape here, a little miss understanding.

Here is a pic of my rear IS frame with the rail guards still on. Yes, the rails bolt to the outside of the frame.


and here is what I found with a little searching. I think this is what I was looking for, as I'd seen it before.

http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2876705040090206398qwakrT

There are more pictures, but a little slow, as I needed to bring them up one at a time.

[John Schmidt]

Yes Ferris, we KNOW the fender is on the inside of the frame. I don't believe that's the issue. I think you've found the problem...the PO apparently drilled out the threads for the front bolt and inserted that bolt from the inside outward. But as previously stated....the frame isn't threaded for holding that front bolt, the fender is. And as you mentioned, to get it right you may have to install either a helicoil or I'd simply retap it for a larger bolt.

[Ferris Leets]

John,
If you have been following this thread.  X ring kept telling me the frame was tapped.  He said the frame was tapped not the fender.  He got pissed when I questioned that.   I was willing to apologize if I was wrong.  You are the only response that I have had that said I was not an incompetent mechanic.

[Ferris Leets]

I see that somehow X ring has removed all of his wrong advice from this. 

John,
     Sometimes i don't get all of the updates to threads.  I just got yours from yesterday.  I agree the frame is not threaded and the PO put in a bolt.  I just wonder why x ring removed all of his posts with out any explanation.

[Ferris Leets]

24 hours and then i will make my decision.

[sugerbear]

let me try this



zoom in to see the threads on the fender.

does this help?

[Ferris Leets]

OK, That is what I said.  Check with x ring(notice the lower case).

[John Schmidt]

Ferris, re. X-ring....he's OK. He's made a lot of suggestions over time and imparted plenty of knowledge. Communication on a board such as this can sometimes be difficult at best and taken the wrong way. He probably just got frustrated with the whole thing and walked away from it. I've done the same thing a few times...no harm done.

I think I'd check the internals of that front bolt position, see if it has been drilled out. Is it possible the PO didn't drill it out and simply used a smaller diameter bolt? I've seen that done a couple times although don't recommend it. If some thread is still there, you may be able to retap it with the same size and reuse the bolt. Just insert it from the outside. Good luck.

[TJ]

How about answering a couple ???...
1  how many miles on the bike?
2  what size tire?
3  Original shocks?
4  what setting on shocks?
5  what's new GF weight?

[Ferris Leets]

To summarize the situation.

The PO must have stripped out the boss on the fender and put bolts in with the heads on the inside.  With a MC tire there was no issue.  With the car tire the bolt heads rubbed if the suspension was compressed almost to the bottom. 

  I do not know X Ring.  I just know that he insisted that the frame was threaded and that the fender was on the outside of the frame..  The reason he removed his posts was because his info. was wrong.   Take a look at the 5th message where I quoted him.  And I quote Marty here "I am sure the frame is threaded"

[ValkFlyer]

To summarize the situation.

The PO must have stripped out the boss on the fender and put bolts in with the heads on the inside.  With a MC tire there was no issue.  With the car tire the bolt heads rubbed if the suspension was compressed almost to the bottom. 

  I do not know X Ring.  I just know that he insisted that the frame was threaded and that the fender was on the outside of the frame..  The reason he removed his posts was because his info. was wrong.   Take a look at the 5th message where I quoted him.  And I quote Marty here "I am sure the frame is threaded"

People make mistakes, life to short to get pissy about the small stuff...sounds like you've got a handle on it now..good work!

[X Ring]

Ferris, re. X-ring....he's OK. He's made a lot of suggestions over time and imparted plenty of knowledge. Communication on a board such as this can sometimes be difficult at best and taken the wrong way. He probably just got frustrated with the whole thing and walked away from it. I've done the same thing a few times...no harm done.

I think I'd check the internals of that front bolt position, see if it has been drilled out. Is it possible the PO didn't drill it out and simply used a smaller diameter bolt? I've seen that done a couple times although don't recommend it. If some thread is still there, you may be able to retap it with the same size and reuse the bolt. Just insert it from the outside. Good luck.

Not quite John.  I may have been incorrect about the frame vs fender position but that in no way dismisses my correct diagnosis of the problem.  When someone gives me attitude when I am trying to assist them and YELLS at me, They can figure it out for themselves.  They'll never get another second of assistance from me.  

Marty  

ETA:  Thanks John

[Ferris Leets]

Marty,
      Sorry we got of on the wrong foot here.  I did not mean to yell at you.  One of the problems with reading rather than speaking.  I was emphasizing.  The only reason I did that was because you kept insisting that I was wrong.  After we both got snippy things went down hill.
      I do appreciate the initial info about the threaded boss because I had no way of knowing that the bolt from the inside was not original.
      As to grinding that boss I think it needs to be done on the outside of the fender.  It looks to me like the lug is welded to the outside of the fender and I am afraid that grinding any significant amount from the inside would remove the fender material and weaken the joint where it is attached to the lug.  If the cut down bolt does not give enough clearance I am going to remove the fender and look at it more closely.  If what I think I see is correct I will remove a couple of 100 thousandths from the side that contacts the frame.  That should be enough to solve the problem.  I will report on the final outcome.
      I do hope that we are now good.

PS. The new Girl friend is under 120#, I am 165#, The IS has about 40k, Shocks are good.  The shocks were set kind of light but I am glad that I found the problem because I want things to operate correctly.
   

[X Ring]

Marty,
      Sorry we got of on the wrong foot here.  I did not mean to yell at you.  One of the problems with reading rather than speaking.  I was emphasizing.  The only reason I did that was because you kept insisting that I was wrong.  After we both got snippy things went down hill.
      I do appreciate the initial info about the threaded boss because I had no way of knowing that the bolt from the inside was not original.
      As to grinding that boss I think it needs to be done on the outside of the fender.  It looks to me like the lug is welded to the outside of the fender and I am afraid that grinding any significant amount from the inside would remove the fender material and weaken the joint where it is attached to the lug.  If the cut down bolt does not give enough clearance I am going to remove the fender and look at it more closely.  If what I think I see is correct I will remove a couple of 100 thousandths from the side that contacts the frame.  That should be enough to solve the problem.  I will report on the final outcome.
      I do hope that we are now good.

PS. The new Girl friend is under 120#, I am 165#, The IS has about 40k, Shocks are good.  The shocks were set kind of light but I am glad that I found the problem because I want things to operate correctly.
   

It's rubbing on the inside of the fender so that where the grinding needs to be done.  If the boss is stripped out the simplest solution; although not the cheapest; is to get another rear fender front half.  I don't know what color your I/S is but I'm pretty sure you can find one that matches.  Pinwall has loads of them.  Punisher was the one who told me about this problem when I went DarkSide.  He discovered it after he and Sweet Tea went on a ride.  He had stock bolts in the fender and ground that boss down to the end of the bolt.  He's got 10s of 1,000s of miles on it since with no problems.  Use his experience and don't make this more complicated than it already is.

Marty