DOT 4 upgrade

[Ricky-D]

"I almost hate to even entertain this discussion anymore but I'll also point out that while the amount of bulge in any one single spot may be virtually immeasurable, the amount over the surface area of the entire line is enough to make a marked difference in feel. I've put braided lines on every bike I've owned that didn't already come with them and the result is always positive. Very small amounts in this regard can have a dramatic effect."

"When I say "virtually immeasurable" what that means is that the amount it expands in any one spot is very, very minute, and since the material itself is pliable it can be extremely hard to get an accurate measurement and even then you may need a vernier micrometer. Conditions must be tightly controlled etc. But again, it's a small measurement in one spot but extrapolate that over a whole line and it's a lot of surface area"

Ok, so let me understand this:

If you replace a brake line (combination of steel tubing and hose) with a hose (braided stainless) the net result will be a gain since the expansion with the (braided stainless) will be less as a whole compared to the (combination of steel tubing and hose).

Have I got that correct?

***

[The Anvil]

"I almost hate to even entertain this discussion anymore but I'll also point out that while the amount of bulge in any one single spot may be virtually immeasurable, the amount over the surface area of the entire line is enough to make a marked difference in feel. I've put braided lines on every bike I've owned that didn't already come with them and the result is always positive. Very small amounts in this regard can have a dramatic effect."

"When I say "virtually immeasurable" what that means is that the amount it expands in any one spot is very, very minute, and since the material itself is pliable it can be extremely hard to get an accurate measurement and even then you may need a vernier micrometer. Conditions must be tightly controlled etc. But again, it's a small measurement in one spot but extrapolate that over a whole line and it's a lot of surface area"

Ok, so let me understand this:

If you replace a brake line (combination of steel tubing and hose) with a hose (braided stainless) the net result will be a gain since the expansion with the (braided stainless) will be less as a whole compared to the (combination of steel tubing and hose).

Have I got that correct?

***

Yes. It's a weakest link scenario. The rear brake and clutch may benefit less from braided lines (because I believe there's more % of steel tubing in them and the clutch lever does not generate rising force at the limit of it's travel like brakes do) but that front brake is mostly rubber hose. Though even at that if enough of the rear brake is rubber hose it could still have a marked effect.

[98valk]

"I almost hate to even entertain this discussion anymore but I'll also point out that while the amount of bulge in any one single spot may be virtually immeasurable, the amount over the surface area of the entire line is enough to make a marked difference in feel. I've put braided lines on every bike I've owned that didn't already come with them and the result is always positive. Very small amounts in this regard can have a dramatic effect."

"When I say "virtually immeasurable" what that means is that the amount it expands in any one spot is very, very minute, and since the material itself is pliable it can be extremely hard to get an accurate measurement and even then you may need a vernier micrometer. Conditions must be tightly controlled etc. But again, it's a small measurement in one spot but extrapolate that over a whole line and it's a lot of surface area"

Ok, so let me understand this:

If you replace a brake line (combination of steel tubing and hose) with a hose (braided stainless) the net result will be a gain since the expansion with the (braided stainless) will be less as a whole compared to the (combination of steel tubing and hose).

Have I got that correct?

***

nobody has ever suggested replacing the steel tubing brake lines with flexible SS hose lines.
 It has always been just replacing the existing flexible rubber lines with the flexible SS lines, both which connect to the steel lines.
I don't know where u got the idea that someone was replacing the metal lines with SS braided lines, this was never posted.

[Ricky-D]

"nobody has ever suggested replacing the steel tubing brake lines with flexible SS hose lines.
 It has always been just replacing the existing flexible rubber lines with the flexible SS lines, both which connect to the steel lines.
I don't know where u got the idea that someone was replacing the metal lines with SS braided lines, this was never posted."

CA, although it is possible to separate the rubber hose from the steel tube I don't think many have the tools or the expertise to affect such a change as you suggest.  They are a single unit (unalterable) both at the front and the rear brakes.

I also think all the aftermarket systems do not include the steel tubing as do the stock Honda system.

***

[T.P.]

most SS sets go from the master to the calipers, I have NO steel lines on my Interstate.

[The Anvil]

"nobody has ever suggested replacing the steel tubing brake lines with flexible SS hose lines.
 It has always been just replacing the existing flexible rubber lines with the flexible SS lines, both which connect to the steel lines.
I don't know where u got the idea that someone was replacing the metal lines with SS braided lines, this was never posted."

CA, although it is possible to separate the rubber hose from the steel tube I don't think many have the tools or the expertise to affect such a change as you suggest.  They are a single unit (unalterable) both at the front and the rear brakes.

I also think all the aftermarket systems do not include the steel tubing as do the stock Honda system.

***

No aftermarket systems I know of incorporates rigid steel line. In the parts breakdown you can see that the only rigid line in the front is the intermediate line:

http://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID/26/Type/FR_BRAKE_MASTER_CYL/MakeID/1/Make/Honda/YearID/38/Year/1997/ModelID/7267/Model/GL1500C/GroupID/315837/Group/FR_BRAKE_MASTER_CYL

However a line could be made that incorporates it. Spiegler told me they have all kinds of fittings and manifolds that aren't on the custom builder parts list. But since there's no benefit from retaining it I just built a 950 pressed in T fitting style line. I thought about going with the two separate lines from the master cylinder but I'm trying to clean it up as much as possible so I went with that style instead. The clutch line is one pressed together (swaged) hybrid hose/line. the rear brake line is a hybrid but it has threaded joints between the hoses at the MC and caliper ends and the rigid intermediate line. But I think all of the aftermarket SS rear sets do away with that intermediate line. You can see all of the parts breakdowns in the ronayers fische.

[Rio Wil]

may need a vernier micrometer.

Yes, I doubt your tool box comes with more than a rubber ruler and blunted pair of scissors but you made the best of what you had I guess.

I'll drink the Kool Aid, you keep chowing on the lead paint chips Corky. 

Don't ya love it when the marketing hype placebo logic disintegrates and the above is all thats left  Keep making immeasurable improvements that make marked effects.
You might be surprised how accurate a stainless steel braided rubber ruler is, its the latest thing in measuring sticks. The next generation of the rubber ruler will not only be ss braided but will be temperature, humidity and kool-aid compensated and can actually measure "immeasurable"  placebo induced marked effects. Place your order now.

And I guess I have had enough fun with this so I am done.......but like I said, if it makes you feel good.....braid up!

[Rio Wil]

My apologies but I can't help just adding the following related to DOT ratings of brake lines:
Take from :  http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Brake_Lines
=====================================================

What Are "DOT-approved" SS Lines?

[AWN] A few people have asked me to explain the difference between "DOT-approved" and non-approved stainless-steel brake lines. This explanation is pretty long, but I think it'll explain everything so I won't ever have to post another message on the subject... I'll just refer anyone who asks to the Porschelist searchable archives.

First, a quick explanation of what stainless-steel brake lines ARE:

The brake lines we're talking about are the flexible ones that connect between the hard lines (i.e., the inflexible tubing) in the car and the brake calipers on the wheels.

They've traditionally been made from rubber tubing, with steel or aluminum connectors crimped onto their ends. Nearly all passenger cars are shipped with rubber brake lines, and they hardly ever fail.

"Stainless-steel" lines are made of Teflon tubing, not rubber. Teflon has a number of advantages over rubber; the chief ones are that it doesn't expand under pressure and it doesn't deteriorate with age. It also resists high temperatures and is chemically inert, so it's compatible with all brake fluids.

However, Teflon is pretty fragile, so it has to be protected from physical damage (chafing, flying rocks, etc.). Although some manufacturers armor their Teflon hoses with Kevlar, most protect the Teflon with an external sheath of braided stainless-steel wire... So that's why armored Teflon hose is usually called "stainless-steel hose". There's no such thing as a stainless-steel brake line that's "not lined with any material"; ALL stainless-steel brake lines are really Teflon lines with a protective stainless-steel-braid cover.

The ends of the hoses have to be securely attached to the brake calipers and the hard lines, so each hose is terminated by threaded hose-ends.

Those hose-end fittings can be attached to the hoses a couple of ways.

The cheap way is to crimp or swage them onto the hoses, like the fittings on rubber hoses. The more-expensive way is to use a two-piece replaceable hose end that captures a portion of the hose between an inner nipple and a concentric outer socket. These hose-ends (often referred to generically as "Aeroquip fittings" because they were invented by the Aeroquip Corporation) are used EVERYWHERE on aircraft and race cars.

Ok... So what's required for a stainless-steel brake line to be DOT-approved?

First, I should point out that there may be lines available that meet all the DOT specs, but are non-approved only because they haven't been submitted to the DOT for approval.

Manufacturers can't legally say that their lines are approved -- even if they KNOW that the lines meet all the DOT specifications -- without actually submittimg them to the DOT.

For that reason, stainless-steel brake lines can fall into three categories:

"DOT approved" - These lines have been submitted to and approved by the US Department of Transportation.

"non-approved" - These lines don't have a DOT approval, either because they don't meet the specs or simply because they haven't been submitted for testing.

"non-conforming" - These lines are non-approved (and non-approvable) because they fail to meet the DOT specs.

Ok...

The safety standard that brake hoses must meet is called Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 106; if you have a copy of the Code of Federal Regulations handy, it's in Title 49, Volume 5, Subpart B, Section 571.106.

The section that applies to hydraulic hoses is about six pages long, and it covers everything from labeling requirements to pressure and temperature testing.

One important thing to note -- this'll come up later when I explain why the "best" hose assemblies can't be DOT approved -- is that each of the requirements in the Standard carries the same weight; if a hose fails to meet ANY requirement, it won't be approved.

Hypothetically, therefore, a hose which met all the performance specs but was labeled in lowercase letters (the Standard requires block capitals) would fail to be approved.

Also, some of the features required by the Standard provide a certain amount of "idiot-proofing", but at the expense of absolute maximum strength or safety... It's the same sort of mandated mediocrity that forced Ferrari to replace the stock 5-point safety harnesses in US-spec F40s with those ridiculous motorized-mouse single shoulder belts.

Anyway...

Most of the "performance" specs in the Standard (i.e., burst strength, compatibility with brake fluids, tensile strength, expansion under pressure, etc.) are easily met by all halfway-decent hydraulic brake hoses, but there are a couple of tests and requirements that are particularly difficult for stainless-steel hoses to meet.

Those requirements are:

1. The manner in which the fittings must be attached to the hose.

FMVSS 106 specifies that "Each hydraulic brake hose assembly shall have PERMANENTLY ATTACHED brake hose end fittings which are attached by deformation of the fitting about the hose BY CRIMPING OR SWAGING." [Emphasis added]

The idea is that, since crimped-on fittings can't be loosened, a stupid end-user won't be able to screw with and weaken them.

This is a good thing from a product-liability point of view, I guess... But it means that any hose assembly which uses the very best fittings available -- like the nipple-and-cutter Aeroquip Super Gem or Earl's Speed Seal -- is non-conforming and CAN'T be DOT-approved.

2. The "whip-resistance" test.

This test involves mounting the hose on a flexing machine, pressurizing it to 235 psi, then running it at 800 RPM for 35 hours.

When steel-armored hoses were run through that test, it was found that the hoses tended to bend right at the junction between the hose and the hose-ends. After a while, the stainless-steel braid would start to tear, and the broken wires would cut into the inner Teflon liner, causing it to fail.

One brake-hose manufacturer fought to modify the whip test, claiming that their stainless-steel hose could easily comply with the test if only a supplemental support were used during testing to move the flexing-point away from the hose-ends.

The NHTSA ruled on the issue in August, 1996, deciding to allow manufacturers to use the supplemental support... But only on the condition that the same support was used when the hoses were installed on a real car.

FMVSS 106 was modified to include the use of the support, and the new rules went into effect in October, 1996.

"DOT-approved" stainless-steel brake hoses went on sale immediately thereafter.

So... Now that you know the whole story, you can make an informed decision as to whether you want to put these things on your street-driven car.

If you decide to install them, you need to be aware of a few things:

When you install them, you must make SURE that they can't kink, twist, or stretch under any combination of wheel droop, bump, or (for the front wheels) steer.

The stainless-steel outer braid will cut through anything against which it rubs, so you have to make sure that the lines don't rub back and forth over anything important.

Stainless steel lines have been known to fail when dirt gets between the outer braid and the Teflon lining... As the braid moves back and forth, the dirt abrades the Teflon and can make it rupture. If you look at stainless-steel lines on motorcycles, you'll see that many of them are encased in plastic tubing, apparently in an effort to eliminate this problem. The tubing also helps considerably with the abrasion issue mentioned above.

[The Anvil]

My apologies but I can't help just adding the following related to DOT ratings of brake lines:
Take from :  http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Brake_Lines
=====================================================

What Are "DOT-approved" SS Lines?

[AWN] A few people have asked me to explain the difference between "DOT-approved" and non-approved stainless-steel brake lines. This explanation is pretty long, but I think it'll explain everything so I won't ever have to post another message on the subject... I'll just refer anyone who asks to the Porschelist searchable archives.

First, a quick explanation of what stainless-steel brake lines ARE:

The brake lines we're talking about are the flexible ones that connect between the hard lines (i.e., the inflexible tubing) in the car and the brake calipers on the wheels.

They've traditionally been made from rubber tubing, with steel or aluminum connectors crimped onto their ends. Nearly all passenger cars are shipped with rubber brake lines, and they hardly ever fail.

"Stainless-steel" lines are made of Teflon tubing, not rubber. Teflon has a number of advantages over rubber; the chief ones are that it doesn't expand under pressure and it doesn't deteriorate with age. It also resists high temperatures and is chemically inert, so it's compatible with all brake fluids.

However, Teflon is pretty fragile, so it has to be protected from physical damage (chafing, flying rocks, etc.). Although some manufacturers armor their Teflon hoses with Kevlar, most protect the Teflon with an external sheath of braided stainless-steel wire... So that's why armored Teflon hose is usually called "stainless-steel hose". There's no such thing as a stainless-steel brake line that's "not lined with any material"; ALL stainless-steel brake lines are really Teflon lines with a protective stainless-steel-braid cover.

The ends of the hoses have to be securely attached to the brake calipers and the hard lines, so each hose is terminated by threaded hose-ends.

Those hose-end fittings can be attached to the hoses a couple of ways.

The cheap way is to crimp or swage them onto the hoses, like the fittings on rubber hoses. The more-expensive way is to use a two-piece replaceable hose end that captures a portion of the hose between an inner nipple and a concentric outer socket. These hose-ends (often referred to generically as "Aeroquip fittings" because they were invented by the Aeroquip Corporation) are used EVERYWHERE on aircraft and race cars.

Ok... So what's required for a stainless-steel brake line to be DOT-approved?

First, I should point out that there may be lines available that meet all the DOT specs, but are non-approved only because they haven't been submitted to the DOT for approval.

Manufacturers can't legally say that their lines are approved -- even if they KNOW that the lines meet all the DOT specifications -- without actually submittimg them to the DOT.

For that reason, stainless-steel brake lines can fall into three categories:

"DOT approved" - These lines have been submitted to and approved by the US Department of Transportation.

"non-approved" - These lines don't have a DOT approval, either because they don't meet the specs or simply because they haven't been submitted for testing.

"non-conforming" - These lines are non-approved (and non-approvable) because they fail to meet the DOT specs.

Ok...

The safety standard that brake hoses must meet is called Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 106; if you have a copy of the Code of Federal Regulations handy, it's in Title 49, Volume 5, Subpart B, Section 571.106.

The section that applies to hydraulic hoses is about six pages long, and it covers everything from labeling requirements to pressure and temperature testing.

One important thing to note -- this'll come up later when I explain why the "best" hose assemblies can't be DOT approved -- is that each of the requirements in the Standard carries the same weight; if a hose fails to meet ANY requirement, it won't be approved.

Hypothetically, therefore, a hose which met all the performance specs but was labeled in lowercase letters (the Standard requires block capitals) would fail to be approved.

Also, some of the features required by the Standard provide a certain amount of "idiot-proofing", but at the expense of absolute maximum strength or safety... It's the same sort of mandated mediocrity that forced Ferrari to replace the stock 5-point safety harnesses in US-spec F40s with those ridiculous motorized-mouse single shoulder belts.

Anyway...

Most of the "performance" specs in the Standard (i.e., burst strength, compatibility with brake fluids, tensile strength, expansion under pressure, etc.) are easily met by all halfway-decent hydraulic brake hoses, but there are a couple of tests and requirements that are particularly difficult for stainless-steel hoses to meet.

Those requirements are:

1. The manner in which the fittings must be attached to the hose.

FMVSS 106 specifies that "Each hydraulic brake hose assembly shall have PERMANENTLY ATTACHED brake hose end fittings which are attached by deformation of the fitting about the hose BY CRIMPING OR SWAGING." [Emphasis added]

The idea is that, since crimped-on fittings can't be loosened, a stupid end-user won't be able to screw with and weaken them.

This is a good thing from a product-liability point of view, I guess... But it means that any hose assembly which uses the very best fittings available -- like the nipple-and-cutter Aeroquip Super Gem or Earl's Speed Seal -- is non-conforming and CAN'T be DOT-approved.

2. The "whip-resistance" test.

This test involves mounting the hose on a flexing machine, pressurizing it to 235 psi, then running it at 800 RPM for 35 hours.

When steel-armored hoses were run through that test, it was found that the hoses tended to bend right at the junction between the hose and the hose-ends. After a while, the stainless-steel braid would start to tear, and the broken wires would cut into the inner Teflon liner, causing it to fail.

One brake-hose manufacturer fought to modify the whip test, claiming that their stainless-steel hose could easily comply with the test if only a supplemental support were used during testing to move the flexing-point away from the hose-ends.

The NHTSA ruled on the issue in August, 1996, deciding to allow manufacturers to use the supplemental support... But only on the condition that the same support was used when the hoses were installed on a real car.

FMVSS 106 was modified to include the use of the support, and the new rules went into effect in October, 1996.

"DOT-approved" stainless-steel brake hoses went on sale immediately thereafter.

So... Now that you know the whole story, you can make an informed decision as to whether you want to put these things on your street-driven car.

If you decide to install them, you need to be aware of a few things:

When you install them, you must make SURE that they can't kink, twist, or stretch under any combination of wheel droop, bump, or (for the front wheels) steer.

The stainless-steel outer braid will cut through anything against which it rubs, so you have to make sure that the lines don't rub back and forth over anything important.

Stainless steel lines have been known to fail when dirt gets between the outer braid and the Teflon lining... As the braid moves back and forth, the dirt abrades the Teflon and can make it rupture. If you look at stainless-steel lines on motorcycles, you'll see that many of them are encased in plastic tubing, apparently in an effort to eliminate this problem. The tubing also helps considerably with the abrasion issue mentioned above.

Pretty much everything in this post is wrong.

[Rio Wil]

optorectalitis is a terrible disease....

[Ricky-D]

I was really expecting a comment like:

That report has to do with cars only so it isn't relevant to motorcycles!

"optorectalitis is a terrible disease"

Seems it's not curable either.

***

[The Anvil]

optorectalitis is a terrible disease....

I'll elaborate because I have time now and Maggie's napping so I'm bored.  

"Stainless-steel lines are made of Teflon tubing, not rubber. Teflon has a number of advantages over rubber; the chief ones are that it doesn't expand under pressure and it doesn't deteriorate with age. It also resists high temperatures and is chemically inert, so it's compatible with all brake fluids."

Totally wrong. First of all, EVERYTHING used in brake and hydraulic lines expands under pressure, even steel braided lines. They just expand a lot less than plain OEM rubber lines. You know that coil in the rigid line coming out of the master cylinder on your car? That's to make up for expansion. You will not find a straight piece of rigid hydraulic tubing on an aircraft or car or bike for that matter. They all will have a slight bend (often an S) to account for this. If they did not they would fatigue and rupture quickly. In fact, even the short rigid tube between the two front brake lines on the Valk has a bend in it. Look if you don't believe me.  

Secondly, ALL materials deteriorate with age including Teflon, some just deteriorate less quickly than others.

"However, Teflon is pretty fragile, so it has to be protected from physical damage (chafing, flying rocks, etc.).

Teflon is not particularly fragile and is highly abrasion resistant. In fact, we use Teflon as an interface between mating surfaces that rub and chafe, like an engine cowling mating surface. Anti-chafe paint contains Teflon, VERY tough stuff.

Although some manufacturers armor their Teflon hoses with Kevlar, most protect the Teflon with an external sheath of braided stainless-steel wire... So that's why armored Teflon hose is usually called "stainless-steel hose". There's no such thing as a stainless-steel brake line that's "not lined with any material"; ALL stainless-steel brake lines are really Teflon lines with a protective stainless-steel-braid cover."

One of the few parts that's correct, sort of.

The cheap way is to crimp or swage them onto the hoses, like the fittings on rubber hoses. The more-expensive way is to use a two-piece replaceable hose end that captures a portion of the hose between an inner nipple and a concentric outer socket. These hose-ends (often referred to generically as "Aeroquip fittings" because they were invented by the Aeroquip Corporation) are used EVERYWHERE on aircraft and race cars.

Again, sort of right. But swaging is not necessarily "cheaper". Parts are cheaper but pro-grade swaging tools are ridiculously expensive and swaging is actually the preferred method over mechanical fittings.

Raise your hand if you hold approval to terminate, test and inspect FAA standard airworthy hydraulic/fuel lines and hoses, swaged OR mechanical (raises hand).

I won't bother with the middle section about DOT regs because it's irrelevant to this discussion.

The stainless-steel outer braid will cut through anything against which it rubs, so you have to make sure that the lines don't rub back and forth over anything important.

Actually, raw SS braided lines are not used in road going applications and haven't been used in years for this reason. You may still be able to buy it, but nobody uses it. Pretty much every commercially available, pre-terminated braided line is coated with an abrasion resistant sheath. So, wrong again.  

Stainless steel lines have been known to fail when dirt gets between the outer braid and the Teflon lining... As the braid moves back and forth, the dirt abrades the Teflon and can make it rupture. If you look at stainless-steel lines on motorcycles, you'll see that many of them are encased in plastic tubing, apparently in an effort to eliminate this problem. The tubing also helps considerably with the abrasion issue mentioned above.

Never happens. May have happened in olden tymes, not anymore. The braiding is not decorative or simply to contain potential failure as on radiator hoses. The braiding on hydraulic lines is a very, very tight weave. So tight that dirt particles large enough to do damage cannot get between the weave. Like the alternative material Kevlar the tight weave IN COMBINATION WITH the high tensile strength of the material itself is what gives it it's structural integrity and resistance to expansion and like fabric composite materials (Kevlar, CF and fiberglass) the weave orientation is also tuned to minimize expansion.


And that's the last I'll say on the matter. But for anyone tempted to listen to Corky Rubberhose over there, just keep in mind who actually has the years of experience and qualifications in this particular field and it's obviously NOT him.
 

[Rio Wil]

Getting yer knickers in a twist, eh.....

[The Anvil]

Getting yer knickers in a twist, eh.....

Nope. I just want people to make decisions based on the truth instead of ignorance. 

[Rio Wil]

Actually, reading through your comments on each of the items below, you are supportive of the context of what you are saying is incorrect.  Thanks for your support.