Hard starting, can't quite get it figured

[Quad D]

The Valk has been working way too hard to get going.  It's been to the dealership twice.  Originally they thought it was a weak battery, so the battery was replaced.  Now it's doing the same thing.  Hit the start and it fires up and runs for a few seconds then dies.  Gotta do that about 20 times until it warms up enough to stay running.  Thought weak coil but it tested fine according to the dealership.  Thought carbs were old and supposedly they rebuilt them.  Still same problem.  Any ideas what to check next???   

[MP]

Yes, are you SURE you are pushing the choke lever all the way down?  It will go easy for a ways, then stop.  Most newbies think they now have the choke on, but all that has happened is taking the slack out.  Push down harder,, and move it until it stops.  It pushes quite hard.  NOW, you have the choke on.

Good luck.

MP

[Chrisj CMA]

I would check all vacuum lines and plugs.  Especially the plugs they can look good even upon close inspection by eye, but as soon as you touch them they fall apart.  then I would tighten all 18 intake runner clamp screws and see if that doesnt fix it

[Quad D]

   Right on thanks guys.  I'll try those out and see what happens. 

[Daniel Meyer]

Yeah, right on on the choke! Really common! Push it easy till it stops, then hard another 1/4" or so...you can see the sliders moving on the carb bank if you look.

Shouldn't need any throttle if the choke is really on.

[Quad D]

I don't THINK the choke IS the problem, but I don't rule it out as being PART of the problem.  I guess the choke hasn't been as necessary prior to this problem.  My father in law said he's a bit concerned about the choke being ran too long at some point.  I'll just go ahead and pull and replace the plugs, then torque down the intake bolts, OH!!!  And apparently there is a 1/4'' hose or so, clearish in color, that appear to run down from under the tank.  He's just taken notice of it and doesn't know where it is supposed to run to.  I think it is a vent tube, but no where specific it looks to go or path for it to follow.  I'll post a pic shortly so you know what I'm talking about.

[Chiefy]

I'm not so down on dealers as some here.  But Jesus H Christ......If they said to re-build the carbs because you weren't choking enough......... Oh boy, you'd see me on the 11:00 news  

[MP]

I'm not so down on dealers as some here.  But Jesus H Christ......If they said to re-build the carbs because you weren't choking enough......... Oh boy, you'd see me on the 11:00 news  

+1!

Also, there are a couple hoses that end under the bike.  One is for "dragondrool".  It has a plug in it.  Remove and drain, then put plug back in.  There is also one for the vent for the gas tank.  There should also be a "tee" in that line a little higher.  Leave the "tee" in place.  It is a vac break.

MP

[Chrisj CMA]

I don't THINK the choke IS the problem, but I don't rule it out as being PART of the problem.  I guess the choke hasn't been as necessary prior to this problem.  My father in law said he's a bit concerned about the choke being ran too long at some point.  I'll just go ahead and pull and replace the plugs, then torque down the intake bolts, OH!!!  And apparently there is a 1/4'' hose or so, clearish in color, that appear to run down from under the tank.  He's just taken notice of it and doesn't know where it is supposed to run to.  I think it is a vent tube, but no where specific it looks to go or path for it to follow.  I'll post a pic shortly so you know what I'm talking about.

Ok Im not so sure you understood my suggestion.  First of all spark plugs on these babies last a long  long time.  60-70K miles.......I was talking about the vacuum plugs on the intake nipples.  And the screws I was referring top arent the bolts on the bottom of the intake tubes.  They are the screwes in teh band clamps at the top of the intakes that connect the intakes to the carbs....there are 3 sets, you shouldnt have to worry about the uppermost ones (tank off for them) just the 12 just below gast tank level...............

[R J]

Hey good buddy.

Do us all a favor please.

Try the choke first, as we have been through this 1st hand.

The main clue in your 1st request was when you said it would start and die, that is the 1st clue it is not getting any choke.

Push the choke lever on, now is it facing directly at the right hand grip, NOPE, didn't think so, NOW push it till it does, YES, you will think you are going to break it, but you are not, NOW you got full choke.    Crank the ole girl over and DO NOT move the throttle.  Let it run for like 20 seconds and start pulling the choke off, when ya get to where the hard part started on the pushing it on, you have done released the choke, so just push the lever back to the rest position.  Let it run for a good 30 + seconds before touching the throttle.    These carbs do not have an accelerator pump, so all it is getting is a big gob of air when you touch the throttle.     

Now if you want to check hoses and clamps be my guest.   As far as plugs go, you could pull 1 or 2 to check the color, but I doubt like hell they need replaced.   I have 242K+ on MGM and he has only had 3 sets of plugs.  Still runs like a scalded dog.

[Quad D]

I don't THINK the choke IS the problem, but I don't rule it out as being PART of the problem.  I guess the choke hasn't been as necessary prior to this problem.  My father in law said he's a bit concerned about the choke being ran too long at some point.  I'll just go ahead and pull and replace the plugs, then torque down the intake bolts, OH!!!  And apparently there is a 1/4'' hose or so, clearish in color, that appear to run down from under the tank.  He's just taken notice of it and doesn't know where it is supposed to run to.  I think it is a vent tube, but no where specific it looks to go or path for it to follow.  I'll post a pic shortly so you know what I'm talking about.

Ok Im not so sure you understood my suggestion.  First of all spark plugs on these babies last a long  long time.  60-70K miles.......I was talking about the vacuum plugs on the intake nipples.  And the screws I was referring top arent the bolts on the bottom of the intake tubes.  They are the screwes in teh band clamps at the top of the intakes that connect the intakes to the carbs....there are 3 sets, you shouldnt have to worry about the uppermost ones (tank off for them) just the 12 just below gast tank level...............

Thanks for the clarification!!!  Very helpful.  And I'll double triple check the choke issue first.

[Gary]

You might also check the choke cable path for binding up somewhere if any recent changes etc, or as was in my case, a stretched cable. It does have an adjustment screw under the chrome plate that accesses the linkage. On my pre-owned IS mine had been adjusted to the max and still not fully engaging.
Replacement cable ordered

Good luck.

[Chiefy]

You might also check the choke cable path for binding up somewhere if any recent changes etc, or as was in my case, a stretched cable. It does have an adjustment screw under the chrome plate that accesses the linkage. On my pre-owned IS mine had been adjusted to the max and still not fully engaging.
Replacement cable ordered

Good luck.

Good post.  Something like that is very easy to overlook.

[blkvlk777]

Vote is for the choke.   As for your comment - "I have not had to do this in the past" - I am not sure where you live but in Michigan it is cooler now and definitely need the choke on to start (not so much in the summer).   I hope the choke is your solution.   By the way - I did the same thing when I bought mine years ago - start, stall, start, stall, start stall - good luck.

[old2soon]

Through out the summer months USUALLY no choke needed/required. As some of us are getting cooler mornings now the need fer the choke rears it's ugly head. Bought my I/S in the summer. Had it NOT been for this fine board and group of riders that have been there and done that well are you starting to see where we are coming from??   Nobody has said it yet so i will-these can be cold blooded beasts. Remember the choke when it's in the high 30s low 40s and you wanna ride. RIDE SAFE.

[Quad D]

Well the choke position is ruled out.  My father in law, who's bike this is bought it new the first year it was available and has had it since.  I'd hoped for some time to trouble shoot it with him today but turns out it was lawn care day......and he has LOTS of lawn!!!!     Good news is we have lots of other things to check so I figure one good day of trouble shooting should do it.  So after church tomorrow it's on.   

[Chrisj CMA]

Well the choke position is ruled out.  My father in law, who's bike this is bought it new the first year it was available and has had it since.  I'd hoped for some time to trouble shoot it with him today but turns out it was lawn care day......and he has LOTS of lawn!!!!     Good news is we have lots of other things to check so I figure one good day of trouble shooting should do it.  So after church tomorrow it's on.   

well.....if the vacuum lines are original I guarantee they are bad and so are the capped plugs on teh unused nipples, and if he has never known to tighten teh intake clamp screws they are LOSE!.....that should make a difference

[Quad D]

Sorry for needing so much guidance.  Could you guys point me to a pick of the vacuum lines and the intake clamp screws???  I've been looking on here and can't find a pic.  Is there something in the manual that points them out well???  We've been moving and cleaning so pretty distracted.  I want my FIL's bike to fire up as quick as mine does.   

[Chiefy]

Sorry for needing so much guidance.  Could you guys point me to a pick of the vacuum lines and the intake clamp screws???  I've been looking on here and can't find a pic.  Is there something in the manual that points them out well???  We've been moving and cleaning so pretty distracted.  I want my FIL's bike to fire up as quick as mine does.   

Well, for starters there is a Vac line that runs from the petcock to carb 6, the rear carb on the left side looking back to front.

By memory, I don't recall where all the lines are.  But each carb will have a Vac line or a cap on the inside area of the carb.  The same place as where that Vac line connects to #6.

The intakes are the chrome half round tubes that sit on top of your carbs.  Each of those has a couple of clamps that look similar to hose clamps.  The kind where you turn a screw and the clamp gets tighter and tighter.  You'll understand when you walk out there and look.

If no one can direct you to a link or photos, let me know and I'll take some tomorrow and post them.

[Quad D]

   That would be much appreciated.  It would be good to know exactly what I'm looking at.   

[Ricky-D]

Well the choke position is ruled out.  My father in law, who's bike this is bought it new the first year it was available and has had it since.  I'd hoped for some time to trouble shoot it with him today but turns out it was lawn care day......and he has LOTS of lawn!!!!     Good news is we have lots of other things to check so I figure one good day of trouble shooting should do it.  So after church tomorrow it's on.   

How so?

***

[olddog1946]

Choke, choke, choke or choke...even after all the posts here, IMHO the choke is not getting set..

[Quad D]

   Seriously????  Come on now, the man was one of the first original owners of a Valk, period.  It's fired well for many years and NOW he doesn't know how to work the choke???  How about maybe a pic of the other problems.     I am still unpacking all of my furniture which the movers were nice enough to break or destroy EVERY piece of.  Sorry to be short.     I'm just trying to trouble shoot this on the side for him.  I get it.  CHOKE.  That is not the issue.

[R J]

Then jump the bike with a non running car or truck.

If it starts easy, go buy a battery, and charge it by the instructions if you want any life out of it.

PS:     Where do you live or where is the bike located?

[Rio Wil]

  Seriously????  Come on now, the man was one of the first original owners of a Valk, period.  It's fired well for many years and NOW he doesn't know how to work the choke???  How about maybe a pic of the other problems.     I am still unpacking all of my furniture which the movers were nice enough to break or destroy EVERY piece of.  Sorry to be short.     I'm just trying to trouble shoot this on the side for him.  I get it.  CHOKE.  That is not the issue.

SERIOUSLY......YES.  The guy I bought my bike from had it for 20K miles (4 years) and did NOT know how to properly set the choke fully on!!!!!!!!!!!!!  He said it was just hard starting even using the choke.....well it was because he wasn't and never did push it far enough!!!!!!!!!

[Quad D]

Sorry for needing so much guidance.  Could you guys point me to a pick of the vacuum lines and the intake clamp screws???  I've been looking on here and can't find a pic.  Is there something in the manual that points them out well???  We've been moving and cleaning so pretty distracted.  I want my FIL's bike to fire up as quick as mine does.   

Well, for starters there is a Vac line that runs from the petcock to carb 6, the rear carb on the left side looking back to front.

By memory, I don't recall where all the lines are.  But each carb will have a Vac line or a cap on the inside area of the carb.  The same place as where that Vac line connects to #6.

The intakes are the chrome half round tubes that sit on top of your carbs.  Each of those has a couple of clamps that look similar to hose clamps.  The kind where you turn a screw and the clamp gets tighter and tighter.  You'll understand when you walk out there and look.

If no one can direct you to a link or photos, let me know and I'll take some tomorrow and post them.

This is very helpful, thanks Chiefy.

[Quad D]

That's what has got us beat.  I've been running through the manual and the suggestions here and we're at a loss.  Looks like there are supposed to be two lines running to the petcock.  The one running forward is the fuel line from the tank.  Is the back one a vac line???  Could that cause a lean enough condition to make the bike hard starting??  I've noticed it's spitting a lot of fuel when it's running out of that spot that the manual shows there being another line there. 

I tightened the intake clamps, they were certainly loose.  We also corrected a breather tube not being in the right place.  Still the same condition.

I'm still pretty clueless about those six plugs.  I've found them.  The look fine, but the manual doesn't describe them or how to ensure that they are still in a working condition.   

[Chrisj CMA]

That's what has got us beat.  I've been running through the manual and the suggestions here and we're at a loss.  Looks like there are supposed to be two lines running to the petcock.  The one running forward is the fuel line from the tank.  Is the back one a vac line???  Could that cause a lean enough condition to make the bike hard starting??  I've noticed it's spitting a lot of fuel when it's running out of that spot that the manual shows there being another line there. 

I tightened the intake clamps, they were certainly loose.  We also corrected a breather tube not being in the right place.  Still the same condition.

I'm still pretty clueless about those six plugs.  I've found them.  The look fine, but the manual doesn't describe them or how to ensure that they are still in a working condition.   

What about the vacuum lines running from cylinder 3 and 4 (the two center cylinders) to the "T" under the airbox?  those are the ones that typically crack and cause a bif vacuum leak

[Mr.BubblesVRCCDS0008]

If I read that correct you have some fuel coming from the small vent on the petcock. If this is the case you have a busted diapheam in the petcock. There should be a large fuel line running foward from the petcock, a small vac line running to the small port on the right side of the petcock from number 6 cylinder and a vent port facing straight down. No fuel should come out anywhere arround the petcock.

[Quad D]

   You nailed it before I could post it.  It's a bad diaphragm, $45 kit will be in next week for us to rebuild.     Also there were some sealing issues with the "T" and we addressed that too.  Thanks to all for the help.  I'll let you know next week how it all finals out.      

[97BLKVALK]

Quad D,

As long as you are ordering and probably have the tank off, I would look at a vacuum line kit.  My 97 Valk had 6000 miles on it 4 years ago and had leaky vacuum lines.

Here is a link, great products and even better service.

http://redeye.ecrater.com/c/1086116/vacuum-line-cap-kits

Michael

[John U.]

Quad D,

As long as you are ordering and probably have the tank off, I would look at a vacuum line kit.  My 97 Valk had 6000 miles on it 4 years ago and had leaky vacuum lines.

Here is a link, great products and even better service.

http://redeye.ecrater.com/c/1086116/vacuum-line-cap-kits




Michael

Or consider doing a desmog on the bike to be rid of most of the vacume lines that can leak. Check the Shop Talk section for an article on desmog.