Tankless water heater

[BigBF]

I know this is not relate to motorcycle but my Valkyrie is sitting next to hot water tank now that's Valkyrie relate  ha ha...

I just found out there was small water leaking on my hot water tank. I have trouble decided if I should go for tankless hot water or not? (electric) I have read some about it and one of them that I like (PowerStar 4.0 GPM Electric Tankless Water Heater Model # AE-125) but I have to add new 9 wires @ 6ga with 3 breakers 40 amp and about 75 feet each wires to run from breaker box to hot water storage OR maybe run 100-120 amp breaker - 3 wire 2 or 4ga to water storage then add breaker box in storage with 3 40 amp breakers. I wonder if it's worth to invest that much? (I do the install). It use 26,850 watts. I wonder if electric bill will make no difference or if that will save electric bill than the hot water tank running hot water all the times? I used to have timer to shut off in day and turn on about 6 hours a day but the timer kept going bad... I replaced timer 3 times. I'm not using timer anymore.

Hot water tank about $350 (Last time I replace new hot water tank in 2008) I have 12 years warranty to replace I can get refund and buy tankless tho.

Tankless probably about $1,500 with wiring and breakers box and 3-4 breakers.

I also do have water softer here.

I was wondering if anyone have tankless hot water, any recommend, and pro / con ?
Thanks for feed backs or recommends.
BigBF

[YoungPUP]

Attended a party at a friend's house that has one for an outside "Pool" shower. That thing ran for HOURS and never ran out of hot water.....

[michaelyoung254]

Not sure about the electric one's, but a friend of mine has one that's gas (LPG), and loves it. It seems like it uses a lot of gas, but it only uses it when you're using hot water. He swears that it uses a lot less gas than his old (standard) water heater. I would think that the electric model would be the same way. It would seem like a lot of power, but it only runs when you're actually using hot water instead of keeping it hot 24 hours a day.

[designer]

I have a natural gas tankless. Love it! We can have two showers going at the same time and endless hot water.  The cons.... The time it takes to get hot water is a little longer to the faucet, if you turn it on and then off, then on again, you will have a cold streak in the pipe, will wake you up quick if your taking a hot shower and you get 2 to 3 seconds of cold water. Clean with white vinegar yearly. I have gotten use to these.

[Daniel Meyer]

I have a natural gas tankless in the old vic. LOVE it.

However, I don't recommend the electric whole house tankless...as we move toward more and more smart metering on the electric, you may end up with a peak demand charge (businesses already do) and then that water heater will really cost you.

[designer]

I always heard to only use the electric ones as point sources.  One more heads up, if you have a washer that uses only a little water, washing whites takes some practice.  We prime the lines since there's a couple seconds delay for hot, the bathroom eater is on the same circuit, so we turn it on and when we get hot water we start whites.  Maybe a little overkill, but my wife likes her whites. Lol. I've considered putting in a point water heater just for the washer since it uses so little water.  But this could be a problem for anyone if the water heater is a distance from the washer.

[alph]

I can't understand why you guys keep your hot water heaters out in the garage!! 

But anyway, I don't have a tankless heater, when i need to buy one i'd go with a tankless.  much more efficient, only heat what you need, and when you're away from the house for any extended time, you're not wasting money on hot water!!  sure it's expensive at first, check into tax rebates, there might be one for it, or check with your local utility, they offer rebates also on energy efficient appliances.

al.

[laserpat]

Get the warranty replacement on your old heater and keep your money

[FloridaValkRyder]

I work for Home Depot in the plumbing department. We sell both kinds of tankless heaters, gas and electric. We now have the Rheem electric because we were having issues with the Powerstars (Bosch makes them). Gas, natural and LP, are far and away the best way to go. The electrics have not given my customers any savings on their water heating costs, just continuous hot water. A customer with teen age girls actually had his power bill spike up because of extremely long showers. I found him an inline valve that shuts the hot water off after 20 minutes. Problem solved. The AE-125 uses 3- 40 amp breakers on 8 gauge wire. Power Peak Demand charges are almost here and you will probably not save a penny. The only way you would save money is if you didn't use any, or very little, hot water. Hybrids are another player in this field as well now. Essentially,  a tank water heater with a small heat pump (AKA air conditioner) sitting on top of it. Must be installed in a garage,( yes, a garage ) or other hot area in the home to transfer the heat from the air to the water via a compressor and heat exchanger. Pretty good alternative.

[BigBF]

I can't understand why you guys keep your hot water heaters out in the garage!! 

But anyway, I don't have a tankless heater, when i need to buy one i'd go with a tankless.  much more efficient, only heat what you need, and when you're away from the house for any extended time, you're not wasting money on hot water!!  sure it's expensive at first, check into tax rebates, there might be one for it, or check with your local utility, they offer rebates also on energy efficient appliances.

al.

FYI: It's not in garage anymore. My Valk is in patio to fix up from crashed (I hope to finish fix up my old valk soon) and the hot water tank and water softer are in patio with enclosed where water goes to bathrooms and kitchen within 10 feet before it was in garage storage about 50 feet away and take forever to get hot water in shower so I moved in patio with enclosed and it take 2-3 second to get hot water in shower.

[GreenLantern57]

My brother replaced his tank with the Gas on-demand. 3 females in home, he has saved money and likes the idea of taking long hot showers after a long day on the road. He is installing a on-demand electric in the kitchen because it is at the other end of the house from the heater. When the hot water from the gas heater hits the electric, the electric shuts off the heater.

[Mr. Nuts]

Put one in 5 years ago but didn't do enough research. One factor I didn't consider is that well water starts out very cold in Montana. Therefore water has to go through the thing quite slowly to heat up enough. Long wait times for hot water at the faucet. Expensive to put in with the large gas flue required. Also didn't calculate that electricity is cheap where I am and propane is expensive. Its a wonderful unit for someone with warm city water, cheap natural gas, and expensive electricity...but I had to go back to an electric water heater.

It will be perfect in my barn for a horse washer though since it won't freeze up and doesn't even require an electric connection.

[Valkahuna]

I need to replace my Oil Fired hot water heater. I do have propane in the house, so I figured "no problem" with going to tankless, so I called my plumber, who is also a good friend, and fellow biker.

Turns out there are lots of considerations. Gas units need non-restrictive flues (limited to relatively short, and bend free flues), can't be vented into a masonary flue used for other units, should be located relatively near the bathrooms, or where used, and other restrictions. Turns out that I don't have a good application since where it needs to be locatated I can not go through the wall for an outside flue.

So I asked about elctric, and was told that I needed to go to a larger amp service, needed to upgrade wires, would experience lag times until hot arrived where needed, and that the large whirlpool tub in the master bath, which is fed with a 3/4 inch line would not work since too much water would be passing through the heater too quickly. 

However, what was recommended for me was to go with an "indirect hot water tank". These are Stainless Steel, very well insulated tank, 30-50 gallons, that have a coil from the main furnace going through them to heat the water in the holding tank. I should say that I have baseboard hot water heat, so the furnace has to run anyways even in the summer (though the lower limit in the summer is truned way down) to keep the flue passages clear and dry.

Though I am dissappointed that I can not go to a tankless system, I am glad I had someone honest to advise me, since there are a lot of limitations with the tankless systems.

If your circumstances are right, then tankless will work very well, if all is not good, then you will be sorry, as some others have stated. Check it out, and be aware what questions you should ask.

[Dubsvalk]

I have had a Renai Tankless Water heater for several years now and couldn't be more pleased.  It is a gas water heater and we never run out of hot water.
Dubs

[Jess from VA]

I had a propane "flash heater" in my apartment in Turkey. 

It worked pretty well except, 1) if you got the starting sequence wrong it could explode off the wall (in my kitchen), and 2) we only got the small propane tanks, and I had to go out on the balcony in Winter soapy and naked several times to change the dang tank. 

[Master Blaster]

Hey Big Guy, I have 3 N/G water heaters in my digs, Just replaced the one in the Master bath, was considering tankless, but my gas bill runs about $27.00 amonth, so couldnt really justify it.  I never run out of the hot stuff, and am really happy with my set up.  2 of them are 50 gal, and the one I put in is 60 gal.  A little overkill, but it works for me.  

[hubcapsc]

I've looked at and read about the tankless heaters... I think a properly sized one would
probably be deluxe, but as bigbf said in the original post, heating enough water to take
a bath or shower in on the fly takes a lot of big wires and room in your main panel
if you do it electrically...

There's just two of us at my house, so we just have a 40 gallon unit under the stairs...
it always makes a good bath, the drawback is waiting for the hot water to come from the
tank to the sink in the bathroom... sure would be nice for it to start coming out hot right
away...

Our heater almost took our house a few years ago, be careful out there...



-Mike "that's factory wiring, not my wiring..."

[John Schmidt]

Living in Florida, we have a fair amount of sunshine...along with rain at certain times of the year. Years ago we had a fair sized solar panel installed on the attached garage roof, two panels actually. It does make a difference, both in the electric bill and in the amount of available hot water as well as the recovery time. I don't recall the size of the hot water heater, but it also has an elec. heating element as backup for those cloudy days. If we have a sunny day, the water is so hot I'll have the shower faucet turned almost to the cold side. The water in the kitchen will be extremely hot, works great in the dishwasher, likewise in the washing machine. I've thought about adding small point-of-use tankless heaters in our bathrooms since they're at the far end of the house. But considering our pattern of use, I think I'll leave well enough alone. The water heater itself is located in the laundry room. It's always room temperature since it's also where we have an office set up on one end and a seldom used ironing board and filing cabinets on the other. The washing machine and dryer are right next to the heater which is in its own small closet area, so hot water is almost immediate. The scrub sink is next to the washer and convenient to the garage for cleanup. My wife does get a little miffed when I use it to clean parts in, but that hot water works so good on old oil and grease. 

[BigBF]

I've looked at and read about the tankless heaters... I think a properly sized one would
probably be deluxe, but as bigbf said in the original post, heating enough water to take
a bath or shower in on the fly takes a lot of big wires and room in your main panel
if you do it electrically...

There's just two of us at my house, so we just have a 40 gallon unit under the stairs...
it always makes a good bath, the drawback is waiting for the hot water to come from the
tank to the sink in the bathroom... sure would be nice for it to start coming out hot right
away...

Our heater almost took our house a few years ago, be careful out there...



-Mike "that's factory wiring, not my wiring..."

Hubcapsc
This is what happen when I got new tank about 7 months later it melted... The plastic has melt at element is bec of wires is not tighten that's how it get hotter.... After I tighten the wires it was a bit loose (factory) so after that no more melted and they send me the replacement cover. I expect to have new element but didn't get it duh? so no more melted. Should we blame on factory? We all could have check to make sure its all tighten so the blame is on us or installers. The 60 gallons tank has small leak somewhere on the tank... I am starting to think tankless is not good choice for us with my electric bills bec 3 of my family take forever in shower. I think I should stop by APS (eletric co.) ask for thier suggest tankless or tank which is better for us and my electric bills.

[designer]

I have had a Renai Tankless Water heater for several years now and couldn't be more pleased.  It is a gas water heater and we never run out of hot water.
Dubs

+1

[designer]

I've looked at and read about the tankless heaters... I think a properly sized one would
probably be deluxe, but as bigbf said in the original post, heating enough water to take
a bath or shower in on the fly takes a lot of big wires and room in your main panel
if you do it electrically...

There's just two of us at my house, so we just have a 40 gallon unit under the stairs...
it always makes a good bath, the drawback is waiting for the hot water to come from the
tank to the sink in the bathroom... sure would be nice for it to start coming out hot right
away...

Our heater almost took our house a few years ago, be careful out there...



-Mike "that's factory wiring, not my wiring..."

unless you go with a point tankless your still going to have a wait.  it takes time for the water to heat (a second or two) then the push to your faucet is going to be the same amount of time as before.  tank or tankless I have a 20 second wait on my second floor for hot water if I turn on the sink faucet, this is a little longer then when I had a tank heater. 

[Jabba]

Big BF, you could always use a tankless and use propane.  I know you didn't think about the cost of the propane... but that's how I'd do it.

I am an HVAC designer, and we do a lot of tankless water heater specifications.  I also have a Rinnai in my home for the last 8 years.

Jabba

[designer]

Big BF, you could always use a tankless and use propane.  I know you didn't think about the cost of the propane... but that's how I'd do it.

I am an HVAC designer, and we do a lot of tankless water heater specifications.  I also have a Rinnai in my home for the last 8 years.

Jabba

Propane has a higher BTU rating then Natural Gas, so it theory it should take less propane to heat the same amount of water. 

[t-man403]

I have had a Renai Tankless Water heater for several years now and couldn't be more pleased.  It is a gas water heater and we never run out of hot water.
Dubs

Tankless are great if you get the right size and run a restaurant where you can't run out of water for the dishes. Part time use at home I believe to be a different story and payback isn't there. If your short on space they hold a bit of an advantage there.

I'm in the HVAC industry and at times, I replace tanks, if I'm already there doing the furnace.
I wouldn't have a tankless unless they gave it to me and even then it would be debatable. Remember that both tank and tankless are nothing but glorified tea kettles. Depending on the hardness of the water in the area you live, will depend on how often you will need to de-scale your tankless unit. Service calls cost money. I have a review on my laptop done by one of the larger manufactures of both tank and tankless equipment. The annual savings based on a family of four, is $32.00 a year, their tankless vs their cheapest tank. With the cost of a properly sized tankless vs a tank ....... I'll take the tank any day. The annual savings doesn't pay for a service call if needed. Gas always recovers faster than electricity. A two pipe vented tank with 2" insulation will not run during night to keep the water at peak temp when no one is using it. Use it and it will wake up immediately.
Up here I can buy 3 tanks for the cost of a properly sized tankless and have more total warranty than the tankless. I can't emphasize enough the proper sizing of a tankless. If someone opens another tap, your temperature will drop dramatically if your tankless doesn't have the capacity to handle it.
For those of you that don't like the wait time on getting water to the other side of you home, you may want to take a look at putting in a re-circulating pump so that hot water is always down there.

[Davemn]

From my local newspaper. I have no experience with tankless.

Tankless water heaters are sexy.  They take up less floor space, they provide an endless flow of hot water, they're environmentally conscious... and they're really expensive.   If you enjoy showing off your home's mechanical equipment to your friends or you're in to being green at any cost, get a tankless water heater. On the other hand, if you're in to saving dough, doughn't buy a tankless water heater.

A tankless water heater will not save you money.

I stopped by my local big orange box the other day to check up on the latest sales pitch for tankless water heaters.  The brochure for tankless water heaters said they can save up to 25% in fuel costs.  That sounds great, but lets examine what that means. I spend about $12 per month for natural gas during the non-heating season, if I don't include my fixed fuel costs, such as the 'fuel delivery charge.'  This figure includes the gas for my water heater, clothes dryer, and oven.  Just for the sake of argument, lets also pretend that I don't have a family of four who uses the clothes dryer all the time, and I don't use the oven all the time.  We'll pretend that I spend the full $12 / month just  to keep a 50 gallon tank of water hot all the time.

Fuel savings
If I save 25%, I'll save $3/month, or $36/year, or $720 over a period of 20 years.  My standard 50 gallon water heater has a 12 year warranty, and so does the tankless water heater I looked at... but the life expectancy for a tankless water heater is apparently 20 years, so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt and assume it will last that long.

Sizing a tankless water heater
The brochure on tankless water heaters said I should buy the largest tankless water heater they make, based on the number of bathrooms I have in my house - three.   The particular model is the ECOH200DVN.  This unit boasts a 9.5 gallon per minute flow rate at a 35 degree rise in temperature.  With an average ground water temperature of 45 degrees here in Minnesota, that would give me... 80 degree water.  Ha!  That's useless.  To get 120 degree water, my flow rate would be reduced to 5.1 gallons per minute.  Maybe I'll need two water heaters. For the sake of argument, lets just say I only need one.  This unit retails at my local Home Depot for $1,427.00.

Installation costs
Plumbers charge a lot more money to install tankless water heaters, because they're a lot more work compared to traditional storage tank water heaters.  The water supply pipes will need to be re-routed, the venting will need to be completely redone, the unit will need to be mounted on a wall, an electrical outlet may need to be added, and the gas pipe may need to be re-done.  Just for fun, let's say you were able to find a plumber to do all of this for $1,000.   A traditional water heater might cost up to $500 in labor for replacement, so we'll assume you're only spending an extra $500 in labor for a tankless water heater.

The bottom line
A traditional 50 gallon water heater with a 12 year warranty retails for $559 at my local Home Depot.   I would spend an extra $868 to buy a tankless water heater, and at least an extra $500 in installation costs, making this unit cost at least $1,368 more than a traditional water heater.  I would spend at least $1,368 for the potential of saving $720 over a period of 20 years.  If I ever buy a tankless water heater, I won't be doing it because I'm hoping to save money

[Ricky-D]

Same deal here with me. The water heater is at the other end of the house.

Often thought about a smaller water heater (electric) in the crawl space right below the bathroom.

Seems like the best answer for my situation but still will not do it.

Just suffer along with the cold water for a minute or two.

A solar heater with a remote insulated tank and a circulating pump is the bomb. Very nice!

***

[Daniel Meyer]

Hmmm...not sure about the prices you guys are throwing about...

Things were a little different for our house as we are remodeling but here's our cost...

$750 for the tankless. Highest flow rate they made (140,000 btu) and rated for heating as well.

No flue needed. Mounted mine in an outside cabinet. No flue saved me hundreds (the old one was not usable). Also didn't need a vented closet in the house etc. Saved space etc.

Has no trouble getting 120 degree water at full flow, even in the dead of winter (40 degree water).



http://theoldvictorian.com/2010/10/11/plumbing-phase-two-and-seven-eighths/

A fifty gallon conventional was just under $500. We would have needed a new stack as well. I figure with the cabinet and (no) flue that we ended up paying about $300 more to put in the tankless. My summer gas bills went down by $30/mo (to $12, the minimum).

Payoff seems to be something like a year or two for us.

Our favorite feature though is no closet in the house (with it's external air vent and flue required).

Anyway, for a simple remove/replace existing, you are probably better off with whatever you already have. If you are remodeling go with a tankless.

[Jess from VA]

the drawback is waiting for the hot water to come from the
tank to the sink in the bathroom

Same deal, except it's my my kitchen.  I hit the hot water in the kitchen sink, and can scramble three eggs before the water gets hot.  I guess it still beats heating it over a fire in the back yard.

[thewoodman]

Nice install, Dan Meyers. Helped me reconsider where to put the next tankless when I do it in the future. I've had two electric tankless heaters for years, one for the house and have another for the pool / even in Florida, I don't have enough sun for solar. Needed to replace 10 years ago and the tankless freed up much room in a too small kitchen. Remodeled the kitchen in '07 and moved it behind a lazy susan. In 10 years, I've had to replace one coil, only needed on, but did the pair since it's not the easiest thing to get to. Very happy with performance, except long time to shower furthest from the source. Your outside gas install would help on many fronts and make maintenance much easier to boot. Good job!

[designer]

ROE isn't there. I agree, but after I got mine they increased the cost of natural gas by 13%. my bill did not go up. I like hot water when I want it. Guess I had more disposable cash at the time so I upgraded. To each their own. I also have a 44 desert eagle, 3 AR15's, a AR10, a Valkyrie standard with OEM hard bags, trunk and pods.... Get the picture... LOL

[Full_Throttle]

Hmmm...not sure about the prices you guys are throwing about...

Things were a little different for our house as we are remodeling but here's our cost...

$750 for the tankless. Highest flow rate they made (140,000 btu) and rated for heating as well.

No flue needed. Mounted mine in an outside cabinet. No flue saved me hundreds (the old one was not usable). Also didn't need a vented closet in the house etc. Saved space etc.

Has no trouble getting 120 degree water at full flow, even in the dead of winter (40 degree water).



http://theoldvictorian.com/2010/10/11/plumbing-phase-two-and-seven-eighths/

A fifty gallon conventional was just under $500. We would have needed a new stack as well. I figure with the cabinet and (no) flue that we ended up paying about $300 more to put in the tankless. My summer gas bills went down by $30/mo (to $12, the minimum).

Payoff seems to be something like a year or two for us.

Our favorite feature though is no closet in the house (with it's external air vent and flue required).

Anyway, for a simple remove/replace existing, you are probably better off with whatever you already have. If you are remodeling go with a tankless.

This was the EXACT route I went this past winter.  I did all the work myself, and I think I spent somewhere in the neighborhood of  $700 total. 

FYI....if you live in an area where the temp. gets below freezing, be sure to HEAT and INSULATE the outside lines that run to the outside tankless hot water heater!!  You don't want your water lines freezing on the side of your house

[designer]

the drawback is waiting for the hot water to come from the
tank to the sink in the bathroom

Same deal, except it's my my kitchen.  I hit the hot water in the kitchen sink, and can scramble three eggs before the water gets hot.  I guess it still beats heating it over a fire in the back yard.

I actually looked at a recycler, it recycled the water when it was turned on for a set amount of time, then when you turned on water it was hot.  No waste.  The problem is the cost of a gallon of water is cheaper even after 10 years of waste then the cost of the recycler. 

[BigBF]

the drawback is waiting for the hot water to come from the
tank to the sink in the bathroom

Same deal, except it's my my kitchen.  I hit the hot water in the kitchen sink, and can scramble three eggs before the water gets hot.  I guess it still beats heating it over a fire in the back yard.

I actually looked at a recycler, it recycled the water when it was turned on for a set amount of time, then when you turned on water it was hot.  No waste.  The problem is the cost of a gallon of water is cheaper even after 10 years of waste then the cost of the recycler. 

My parents house in tulsa Ok. have recycle hot pipes but its about 50-60 feet long one way to master bathroom. They were complain about thier propane run out pretty fast in winter time and the pipes has insulation. I guess it must be the recycle hot water in pipe. My dad is thinking about tankless but he was not sure yet... I told him maybe better have tankless hot water in master bathroom, its above garage maybe can put tankless up on the wall by ceiling in garage? garage is about 13 feet high.

[designer]

the drawback is waiting for the hot water to come from the
tank to the sink in the bathroom

Same deal, except it's my my kitchen.  I hit the hot water in the kitchen sink, and can scramble three eggs before the water gets hot.  I guess it still beats heating it over a fire in the back yard.

I actually looked at a recycler, it recycled the water when it was turned on for a set amount of time, then when you turned on water it was hot.  No waste.  The problem is the cost of a gallon of water is cheaper even after 10 years of waste then the cost of the recycler. 

My parents house in tulsa Ok. have recycle hot pipes but its about 50-60 feet long one way to master bathroom. They were complain about thier propane run out pretty fast in winter time and the pipes has insulation. I guess it must be the recycle hot water in pipe. My dad is thinking about tankless but he was not sure yet... I told him maybe better have tankless hot water in master bathroom, its above garage maybe can put tankless up on the wall by ceiling in garage? garage is about 13 feet high.

Look at an under sink point heater for the master bath. Goes under the sink and can be electric.  Heats the cold water until the hot water shows up.  Some have a couple gallon tank for just that purpose.

[BigBF]

the drawback is waiting for the hot water to come from the
tank to the sink in the bathroom

Same deal, except it's my my kitchen.  I hit the hot water in the kitchen sink, and can scramble three eggs before the water gets hot.  I guess it still beats heating it over a fire in the back yard.

I actually looked at a recycler, it recycled the water when it was turned on for a set amount of time, then when you turned on water it was hot.  No waste.  The problem is the cost of a gallon of water is cheaper even after 10 years of waste then the cost of the recycler. 

My parents house in tulsa Ok. have recycle hot pipes but its about 50-60 feet long one way to master bathroom. They were complain about thier propane run out pretty fast in winter time and the pipes has insulation. I guess it must be the recycle hot water in pipe. My dad is thinking about tankless but he was not sure yet... I told him maybe better have tankless hot water in master bathroom, its above garage maybe can put tankless up on the wall by ceiling in garage? garage is about 13 feet high.

Look at an under sink point heater for the master bath. Goes under the sink and can be electric.  Heats the cold water until the hot water shows up.  Some have a couple gallon tank for just that purpose.

One sink on south side wall
One sink on north side wall
One shower
One tub with spa
All in one master bathroom that would not work under sink.
It's bigger than my master bedroom ha...

[BigBF]

Look like I am going for tank I thought I had 60 gallons but it's 50 gallons.

I see the Tank run 6500 watts and it also hold hot water in tank all day while electric is shut off by timer and still have hot water to use for kitchen and luandry. If we use shower after 9 am then it will run out of hot water. Start timer at 3 am and off at 9 am for off peak use.

I looked at tankless and it run almost 28,000 watts. My kids and my wife like to take long shower for about 8-10 minutes sometimes longer. For me I take shower like about 5-6 minutes... I believe the electric bill will be high due to very high watts.

Thanks for the feedbacks...