My Weekend: Appleseed!

[X Ring]

Some of you know I bought a Marlin .22 a couple of weeks ago.  I installed some better sights from Tech-Sights.com so I could use the rifle in an Appleseed shoot this past weekend in Mobile, AL.  Unfortunately the rifle wouldn't fire more than two or three rounds without dropping the mag. 

I installed a .22 conversion kit in my AR-15 and took it instead.  Saturday morning was cold, mid 40s, with about a 25 knot north wind and 12-15 students.  Had a few problems due to some old ammo but had a good time and learned a lot.  Sunday was about the same temps but no wind.  Only eight shooters showed up.  Don't know if they were disappointed in their shooting on Saturday and decided not to show up.  We learned more about the Battles of Lexington and Concord than you do in school.  Really an interesting program the Revolutionary War Veterans Association puts on, teaching rifle marksmanship while teaching our heritage also. 

About 1 pm we hit the range.  We started with some warm up exercises and the conversion kit in my AR started screwing up big time.  During a break in the program, I took my AR off the line and replaced the conversion kit with a 5.56mm bolt group and returned it to the line.  I had originally planned to switch to 5.56mm if I fired Expert with the .22 conversion.  I was able to catch the last couple of warm up exercises and adjust my sights.  Then we started the first of four Army Qualification Tests.  The RWVA uses the 25 meter qualification course the Army developed for the M-1 Garand during WW II with scaled down targets to represent them at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards.  When you're sighting in on the 400 yard targets, the front sight is wider.  I fired a 210 on the 1st run and qualified Expert.    While that target was being scored, we fired the course again.  I screwed up and didn't load enough rounds in one mag so missed firing expert again.  On the 3rd run, I made Expert again firing a 219!  I had only 6 rounds left so I couldn't try for a 3rd Expert score.  Didn't matter, I and 3 others were awarded Rifleman patches.  The instructors were impressed.  Only 10% of the shooters normally make Expert and yet half of us did.  Even smaller is the the number of shooters that make it on their first Appleseed shoot.  Another shooter and I did.    

I was told if I go to another Appleseed shoot I would earn an orange hat which Instructors In Training wear.  I'm going to another one on Sunday in Biloxi, MS.  Think I'll take either my AR-10, my M-14 or both and see if I can knock some more Expert scores down.

If you really want to learn how to shoot a rifle, go to http://www.appleseedinfo.org/ and sign up for a course near you.  You'll receive excellent instruction from people that want you to earn that patch plus you'll learn American history and participate in the heritage of our founding generation.

Marty

[The Anvil]

Which .22 conversion do you have and what do you think of it? I'm thinking of picking one up.

[X Ring]

I've got the Army M-261 conversion kit.  It's fairly accurate at 25 meters but not as accurate as the 5.56.  After all you're sending a .22 bullet down a .224 bore.  I think my problems may have been a buildup of gunk in the firing pin and extractor channels.  I'll take it apart and give it a really good cleaning.  This time I'll try some graphite based dry lube instead of using oil.

Marty

[The Anvil]

I've got the Army M-261 conversion kit.  It's fairly accurate at 25 meters but not as accurate as the 5.56.  After all you're sending a .22 bullet down a .224 bore.  I think my problems may have been a buildup of gunk in the firing pin and extractor channels.  I'll take it apart and give it a really good cleaning.  This time I'll try some graphite based dry lube instead of using oil.

Marty

Ah, so it uses the stock barrel .223 barrel? I've seen some kits that are complete uppers but they're pricey.

[Jess from VA]

Nice report Marty.  And congratulations on your scores.

I may look into one of these shoots if close enough.... but it will have to be in warmer weather.


I have been wistfully looking at one of these.... but only with optics, no irons.

http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/455-american/

[X Ring]

The dedicated uppers use a conversion bolt without the chamber adapter.  The upper I used I'm planning on making a dedicated .22 upper just haven't gotten around to it yet.  The M-261 kit uses inserts you put in the stock magazines.  The rest have their own mags and unfortunately every kit's mags aren't compatible with the other kits which really sucks.  Black Dog Machine makes mags for most conversion kits.  

Something else for you to consider is an AR-22 which is an AR-15 in .22lr.  I've heard good things about S&W's MP-22, Spike's Tactical, Model 1 Sales and CMMG.  Stay away from Colt's Umarex.  I've heard nothing but bad things about it like it's made from pot metal.

Marty

[X Ring]

Nice report Marty.  And congratulations on your scores.

I may look into one of these shoots if close enough.... but it will have to be in warmer weather.


I have been wistfully looking at one of these.... but only with optics, no irons.

http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/455-american/

Heard good things about the CZ but I wouldn't take one to Appleseed.  There's mag changes on several stages plus having to manipulate the bolt.  The most common .22 is a Ruger 10/22 they call a LTR, Liberty Training Rifle.  They install Tech Sights on it and if it doesn't have the new style extended mag release, they put in an aftermarket one.  Also it needs to have 1 1/4" sling swivels cause they really teach you how to use the cloth Garand sling.  You'll have it so tight it will actually cut off the blood flow to your support hand.  You can remove your shooting hand and the rifle will not move.

Marty

[The Anvil]

The dedicated uppers use a conversion bolt without the chamber adapter.  The upper I used I'm planning on making a dedicated .22 upper just haven't gotten around to it yet.  The M-261 kit uses inserts you put in the stock magazines.  The rest have their own mags and unfortunately every kit's mags aren't compatible with the other kits which really sucks.  Black Dog Machine makes mags for most conversion kits.  

Something else for you to consider is an AR-22 which is an AR-15 in .22lr.  I've heard good things about S&W's MP-22, Spike's Tactical, Model 1 Sales and CMMG.  Stay away from Colt's Umarex.  I've heard nothing but bad things about it like it's made from pot metal.

Marty

I actually looked into the complete AR-22 but I kind of like the idea of just swapping out uppers since I won't have to but lower upgrades for two guns. Thank you for the info though.

[X Ring]

Check out Model 1 Sales.  They can build you an upper but it will cost you about $5-600.  The S&W is roughly $400 and I hear they're coming to a Wally World near you. 

Marty

[The Anvil]

Check out Model 1 Sales.  They can build you an upper but it will cost you about $5-600.  The S&W is roughly $400 and I hear they're coming to a Wally World near you. 

Marty

Four bones huh? That might be kind of hard to pass up.

[X Ring]

I'm thinking that might make a nice Christmas present for myself.   

Marty

[Pete]

MP15-22 is an excellent rifle and out shoots all the conversion kits - no  contest.

The twist in the 223 barrel is to fast for the 22 LR and causes poor accuracy and lead accumulation in the flasher hider and barrel.

Conversion kits are a very poor substitute for a MP15-22.

As for a dedicated upper - they generally cost as much or more that the MP15-22. So why do that?

So for he same or less money you can have 2 rifles or 1 rifle and an upper  -- no brain-er.

Take the 2 rifles.

[The Anvil]

As for a dedicated upper - they generally cost as much or more that the MP15-22. So why do that?

You guys both make very good points but the reason I cited earlier (though looking less and less attractive I'll admit) is that I'll be able to take advantage of my lower accessories (grip, stock, sling adapter etc.) if I'm using a common lower. But that's really all I can come up with.

[X Ring]

There is an exception to this.  If you want a 20" barreled .22, you will have to buy a dedicated upper or use a conversion kit,

Marty

[Pete]

There is an exception to this.  If you want a 20" barreled .22, you will have to buy a dedicated upper or use a conversion kit,

Marty

Agree>

But there is no real gain from a 16" to 24" barrel in bullet speed using 22LR ammo.

The longer barrel would give an increased sight radius minimizing sighting errors when using iron sights.

[The Anvil]

I'm thinking of picking up a Crickett rifle for Monica. Maybe I'll grab one of those while I'm at it.

[X Ring]

There is an exception to this.  If you want a 20" barreled .22, you will have to buy a dedicated upper or use a conversion kit,

Marty

Agree>

But there is no real gain from a 16" to 24" barrel in bullet speed using 22LR ammo.

The longer barrel would give an increased sight radius minimizing sighting errors when using iron sights.

Who said anything about muzzle velocity.  If you're a CMP High Power competitor and want a .22 for cheap practice, you want the .22 upper to match the 5.56 upper as much as possible.  That's why Compass Lake Engineering gets a cool grand for their .22 uppers.

Marty

[Pete]

Who said anything about muzzle velocity.  If you're a CMP High Power competitor and want a .22 for cheap practice, you want the .22 upper to match the 5.56 upper as much as possible.  That's why Compass Lake Engineering gets a cool grand for their .22 uppers.

Marty

I did... because a 22LR is one of the few calibers where barrel length (overly long - 16" to 24") does not increase velocity.

[Jess from VA]

Actually, I think the ballistics tables show a .22LR starts slowing down after about 21-2" of bbl.

That is, the gun powder is all burned and the gas is no longer pushing the slug after 21-2" of bbl, and the remaining rifling slows the bullet in the bbl.

This oddball (but neat) CZ is shown to have a reduced muzzle velocity for all ammo across the board.  But it is very accurate, arguably more important in target work than velocity.  It's also supposed to be significantly quieter than shorter bbl rifles.


http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-452-ultra-lux/

[Pete]

I have actually done the test with ammo from different manufacturers using barrel lengths from 4 to 26.

From 16" to 24" there is more variation introduced by different barrels than is introduced by length.

Beyond 24" slow down can be measured.

I have the data and can send it to anyone who wants it. Just PM me.  XLS file

[The Anvil]

Actually, I think the ballistics tables show a .22LR starts slowing down after about 21-2" of bbl.

That is, the gun powder is all burned and the gas is no longer pushing the slug after 21-2" of bbl, and the remaining rifling slows the bullet in the bbl.

This oddball (but neat) CZ is shown to have a reduced muzzle velocity for all ammo across the board.  But it is very accurate, arguably more important in target work than velocity.  It's also supposed to be significantly quieter than shorter bbl rifles.


http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-452-ultra-lux/

The barrel itself and ammo type can also have an effect though. Length is a good rule of thumb but not the only determining factor.