Will u vote for or against gun rights?

[MP]

Oddly enough, I'm going to invoke the philosophy if the soft-bellied, moon-faced, never-put-in-an-honest-day's-work-in-his-life Newt Gingrich here;

Sheesh....  I thought you were talking about our Community Organizer In Chief!  My mistake.  Description fits though.

MP

Obama's not moon-faced OR soft bellied.  ???

At least you agree with me on the "never-put-in-an-honest-day's-work-in-his-life" part of your quote.   

[Skinhead]

Oddly enough, I'm going to invoke the philosophy if the soft-bellied, moon-faced, never-put-in-an-honest-day's-work-in-his-life Newt Gingrich here;

Sheesh....  I thought you were talking about our Community Organizer In Chief!  My mistake.  Description fits though.

MP

Obama's not moon-faced OR soft bellied.  ???

You're right, he's more taxi cab with all the doors open.

[The Anvil]

Oddly enough, I'm going to invoke the philosophy if the soft-bellied, moon-faced, never-put-in-an-honest-day's-work-in-his-life Newt Gingrich here;

Sheesh....  I thought you were talking about our Community Organizer In Chief!  My mistake.  Description fits though.

MP

Obama's not moon-faced OR soft bellied.  ???

You're right, he's more taxi cab with all the doors open.

He and Bush could double for a pair of Tie Fighters.

[Skinhead]

Oddly enough, I'm going to invoke the philosophy if the soft-bellied, moon-faced, never-put-in-an-honest-day's-work-in-his-life Newt Gingrich here;

Sheesh....  I thought you were talking about our Community Organizer In Chief!  My mistake.  Description fits though.

MP

Obama's not moon-faced OR soft bellied.  ???

You're right, he's more taxi cab with all the doors open.

He and Bush could double for a pair of Tie Fighters.

+1

We better quit now before we get accused of posting Obama Jokes.

[fudgie]

What about the canidates running now? How do they stand on 2A? So far, just as bad.   The 2 I know of is Romney & Perry. Romney-signed a assualt weapons ban yrs ago. Perry-OC is still illegal in Tx. Each party can be anti-gun.

[texaninsouthfl]

What about the canidates running now? How do they stand on 2A? So far, just as bad.   The 2 I know of is Romney & Perry. Romney-signed a assualt weapons ban yrs ago. Perry-OC is still illegal in Tx. Each party can be anti-gun.

I'm not a particularly big fan of Perry's but I'm pretty sure he'd sign an open carry bill if the Texas legislature passed it.

Open carry is still prohibited in Florida too... it used to be legal but changed in some knee jerk reaction years ago. And you know how it is, once a right is taken away by the government, it's cursed near impossible to get it back.

[Serk]

What about the canidates running now? How do they stand on 2A? So far, just as bad.   The 2 I know of is Romney & Perry. Romney-signed a assualt weapons ban yrs ago. Perry-OC is still illegal in Tx. Each party can be anti-gun.

I'm not a particularly big fan of Perry's but I'm pretty sure he'd sign an open carry bill if the Texas legislature passed it.

Open carry is still prohibited in Florida too... it used to be legal but changed in some knee jerk reaction years ago. And you know how it is, once a right is taken away by the government, it's cursed near impossible to get it back.

Overall I hafta defend Perry's record on 2A rights, he pushed for more and more reciprocity states while governor.

And, he puts his money where his mouth is. This is a picture of me with him (I'm the one in the black t-shirt, my father's the guy in the blue t-shirt.) I was concealed carrying 3 firearms while this picture was taken, and there was no frisking, metal detectors, nothing. It was an open event at a restaurant, there was no screening at all. I can't see a lot of other people of governor level allowing the unwashed masses to get this close to them while armed.



BUT... All this is a moot point, as Perry's dropped out of the race...

[Chattanooga Mark]

Bob E,

     You're a real stand up guy. I hope to shake your hand and tell that to you face to face at some point.

Thank You Sir,

Mark

[98valk]

http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/2011/dec11/psrdec11.html#3

http://www.eagleforum.org/topics/global/global.html    UN treaties & other news

The Obama Administration is reviewing the cases of 300,000 illegal aliens currently in deportation proceedings. "Reviewing" means that they will not be deported, but instead will be invited to apply for work authorization, an Obama euphemism for amnesty.


After years of negative votes in Congress and the opposition of the American people, on October 21 Barack Obama allowed the first Mexican truck to cross the border at Laredo, Texas and head north to deliver door-to-door service of its load of industrial equipment. This implemented an agreement quietly signed by Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood in Mexico City on July 6 with Mexico's secretary of Communications and Transportation.

Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-CA) calls this deal a major anti-jobs program, saying: "We're literally taking good jobs here in America and passing them over the line to Mexico." Todd Spencer, executive vice president of the Independent Drivers Association, a non-union trade association, said 100,000 trucking jobs will be lost.

The Mexican company that won the distinction of being first in line to cross the border was Transportes Olympic. FMCSA (Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration) immediately granted it "Permanent Operating Authority," instead of making the company abide by the specified 18-month waiting period, which means Transportes' trucks will not have to be inspected at the border every time they cross.

FMCSA has announced that all Mexican trucks participating in this project will be given Electronic On-Board Recorders (EOBR) equipped with global positioning capabilities and paid for by the U.S. taxpayers. FMCSA also announced that U.S. trucks must install similar equipment at their own expense.

U.S. taxpayers are also being required to pick up the cost of replacing old mufflers on dozens of Mexican trucks at a cost of $1,600 each, while U.S. truckers must buy their own mufflers. The excuse is that this will improve air quality on our highways.

But EOBRs and mufflers are only part of the expensive regulations hitting U.S. truckers. Obama has imposed new fuel-efficiency regulations, new emissions targets, and new safety regulations. The large trucking firms may be able to absorb the cost, but independent truckers will be hit hard. If they can't afford to buy compliant rigs, they will have to cease operation.

It's apparently Obama's conscious policy to disfavor small trucking firms by regulatory favoritism. It's also Obama's conscious policy to favor Mexican trucks with U.S. taxpayer handouts.

I recommend that every presidential candidate read three books to understand why they don't get it. First, they should read the best book about Barack Obama, Radical-in-Chief, by Stanley Kurtz, which explains how he became a Socialist while attending Columbia University.

The presidential candidates should then read a book that explains in depressing detail why grassroots Americans are convinced that our government is taking us in the wrong direction and over a cliff before our children and grandchildren will ever achieve the American dream: Suicide of a Superpower: Will America Survive to 2025? by Patrick J. Buchanan.

He explains how the liberals have carried on a war against our Judeo-Christian faith, traditional marriage, and our patriotic belief that America is exceptional and should be militarily superior. They have trashed and tried to abolish symbols we cherish such as the Pledge of Allegiance and the Ten Commandments. They are replacing e pluribus unum with what Theodore Roosevelt warned against: unrestrained immigration that will make us "a polyglot boarding house for the world."

The third book, After America: Get Ready for Armageddon by Mark Steyn, delivers the same message, but in Steyn's uniquely different and delightful style. Steyn puts it to us bluntly: "if you want a happy ending, it's up to you. Your call, America."

http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/2011/dec11/psrdec11.html#3

[Bob E.]

He sent Mrs. Clinton to Mexico where she publicly blamed United States gun owners for the problems in Mexico. At the same time she was blaming US gun owners Obama's BATF people were secretly supplying some of the drug cartels with firearms from American dealers so they would be traced back to the US to support her story. The only possible reason for this was to gain public support for anti-2'nd amendment policy.

The two Supreme Court justices Obama has put in place have both been anti-2'nd amendment. Luckily, they were replacing the same kind of justices so we didn't lose or gain anything. If he stays in office long enough to replace even one pro 2'nd amendment judge then gun-owners and the rest of American will almost undoubtedly loose our 2n'd amendment rights. Remember, we only kept our rights by one vote. And even the most pro Obama people would have to admit, there is not a chance in the world that he would appoint a pro-second amendment judge.

On top of that he recently told the anti-gun lobby that he was working "under the radar" to enact restrictions on gun owners. I don't think he has been nearly as destructive of our rights as Clinton was but I think that's mostly because of a lack of effectiveness on his part. Not a lack of anti-gun philosophy.

He has also stopped South Korea from selling a boatload of M1 carbines back to the US because they have "detachable magazines" which he believes are too dangerous for regular citizens to own. That seems to say all that could be said about his feelings towards ownership of semi-auto firearms.

I'm sure if I though a little bit I could bring up other examples but that is surly enough to satisfy your question.

Well, I won't defend "fast and furious" except to say that I believe it was more a case of gross incompetence by agents/supervisors in the field.  I don't believe that there was any sort of conspiracy to end the 2nd amendment.  And when I read about the program, all I see that the ATF did was watch criminal activity.  They didn't promote it or participate in it other than to let it happen (it was already happening which is why they were watching) and then watched the guns be bought, stashed, then transported across the border with the intent to see who it led to.  The problem is that they didn't follow the guns into Mexico to the people they intended to nab.  And as it relates to Obama, this was an extension of a program started under Bush.  That doesn't make it right.  But it does take some weight from the arguement that Obama ran this program as an excuse to attack the 2nd amendment.

As for Clinton, I didn't find her exact words.  But as I understand it, she was basically making the statement that Mexican Cartels were buying illegal guns in the US and that this was made rather easy due to some rather lax gun laws and enforcement in the border states like Arizona.  This is a statement of fact, and not necessarily blaming the US gun owners.  Maybe blaming some of our gun laws, but not gun owners.  And I find this to be consistent with Obama's stated position of being for the 2nd amendment, but wanting to do something about illegal guns and gung trafficking by criminals.

Regarding the "working under the radar" comment...I'd like to see the text and context of what was actually said since your comment is another case if "well, I heard he said this..." without any backup.  But assuming he actually said something like that, let me put a different spin on it.  As I stated before, the NRA has made it such that we cannot even have a reasonable discussion about what to do about illegal guns in the hands of criminals, let alonework towards a solution.  So if you are wanting to solve this problem which is very real, then "working under the radar" has become a necessity due to the NRA.  Politically, anyone who is for some common sense reform to deal with the problem is automatically labled as Anti-2nd Amendment, which is unfortunate.

I'm unfamiliar with the South Korea M1 Carbine deal.  So I'll grant you that point.  But I'm not sure exactly what that has to do with the 2nd Amendment stance.  I'd need to get into the details of why it was stopped.  I tend to believe it is more complicated than just because of the detachable magazines.  But I'll withold judgement at this time.

[Bob E.]

Bob E,

     You're a real stand up guy. I hope to shake your hand and tell that to you face to face at some point.

Thank You Sir,

Mark

Thanks.  I try to be respectful of other's opinions without turning to personal attacks or name-calling as often happens here.  And I hope that, even if you disagree with me, that same is returned.  The problem with our country isn't that we are politically divided, but that the two sides tend to attack the other with baseless charges and totally misrepresented "facts" (by the pols, the media, right/left wing think tanks, super-pacs, and other groups) to the point that we cannot even have an honest debate.  And this topic is just one of those cases that illustrates that point.  The fact that those making the baseless statements (that are often demonstrably false) are often not challenged on those statements is a real problem that is bad for our democracy. But instead, with such easy distribution of information through the internet and on 24 hour "news" sources, those statements and talking points get so easily turned into accepted "facts".  And nobody seems to care about that as long as it is working in their favor for increased power. 

[Skinhead]

Bob,

Violation of the guns laws is a felony, that any one of us would be doing time for.  The government can do it with no recrimination?  Also as a result of this felonious behavior, a (I believe) border patrol agent? was killed with one of those weapons.  The government, I should say ATF has not even accepted ANY responsibility or apologized to the deceased agents family.  Who ever approved Fast and Furious should be tried for murder.

BTW, enjoyed riding to the HHR with you, We'll have to do it again.

[MP]

Under Bush, it was used in a controlled manner, and a much smaller one.  Still, they quit it, because it DID NOT WORK.

Then, under Obama, they brought it back, in a less controlled and much larger version.  Why would they think it would work this way?

Retailers called them, and told them about the gun buyers wanting to buy large numbers of guns, and the retailers did not want to.  BATF told them to sell them anyway.


MP

[The Anvil]

Just to play DA here, if guns aren't dangerous and don't need to be controlled then why is what ATF did so out of line?

I've got a coworker who thinks that there should be NO laws restricting gun ownership. Curiously though, he shares your opinion that someone should go to jail for FAF. I find that odd, but I think I know where them mindset comes from.

[MP]

Just to play DA here, if guns aren't dangerous and don't need to be controlled then why is what ATF did so out of line?

I've got a coworker who thinks that there should be NO laws restricting gun ownership. Curiously though, he shares your opinion that someone should go to jail for FAF. I find that odd, but I think I know where them mindset comes from.

You honestly cannot figure out why knowingly selling guns to drug dealers is OK?  Are you really that slow, or just pretending to be?

[The Anvil]

Just to play DA here, if guns aren't dangerous and don't need to be controlled then why is what ATF did so out of line?

I've got a coworker who thinks that there should be NO laws restricting gun ownership. Curiously though, he shares your opinion that someone should go to jail for FAF. I find that odd, but I think I know where them mindset comes from.

You honestly cannot figure out why knowingly selling guns to drug dealers is OK?  Are you really that slow, or just pretending to be?

Do you not understand what "Devil's Advocate" means? Are you really that slow or just pretending to be?

[Skinhead]

Just to play DA here, if guns aren't dangerous and don't need to be controlled then why is what ATF did so out of line?

I've got a coworker who thinks that there should be NO laws restricting gun ownership. Curiously though, he shares your opinion that someone should go to jail for FAF. I find that odd, but I think I know where them mindset comes from.

I never said there should be no gun laws, just sensible ones.  When you have a Marine (with an out of state CWP) facing 15 years in New York, because they don't reciprocate, yet the government can just ignore gun laws (and others to boot), something is wrong.  If the lawmakers thought it was important enough to make it a law, the least they can do is enforce it.  If not repeal it!

The guns aren't dangerous in the right hands, but in the wrong ones they are lethal.  Stevie Wonder could see that those of the mexican drug cartel are the wrong ones!

[Chattanooga Mark]

The DA role is already taken Anvil. No sense in trying to compete with him. He's a defeated foe who's roar only fools the fools.

All the best,

Mark

[The Anvil]

Just to play DA here, if guns aren't dangerous and don't need to be controlled then why is what ATF did so out of line?

I've got a coworker who thinks that there should be NO laws restricting gun ownership. Curiously though, he shares your opinion that someone should go to jail for FAF. I find that odd, but I think I know where them mindset comes from.

I never said there should be no gun laws, just sensible ones.  When you have a Marine (with an out of state CWP) facing 15 years in New York, because they don't reciprocate, yet the government can just ignore gun laws (and others to boot), something is wrong.  If the lawmakers thought it was important enough to make it a law, the least they can do is enforce it.  If not repeal it!

The guns aren't dangerous in the right hands, but in the wrong ones they are lethal.  Stevie Wonder could see that those of the mexican drug cartel are the wrong ones!

Well again, I'm not necessarily talking about the opinion of anyone here. I think we're pretty much in total agreement on that subject. But there are people who are WAY to the right of our sensible approach and I know a few personally. Actually, more than a few. It's one of the reasons why I don't really hang around with gun people all that much.

[texaninsouthfl]

Just to play DA here, if guns aren't dangerous and don't need to be controlled then why is what ATF did so out of line?

I've got a coworker who thinks that there should be NO laws restricting gun ownership. Curiously though, he shares your opinion that someone should go to jail for FAF. I find that odd, but I think I know where them mindset comes from.

I never said there should be no gun laws, just sensible ones.  When you have a Marine (with an out of state CWP) facing 15 years in New York, because they don't reciprocate, yet the government can just ignore gun laws (and others to boot), something is wrong.  If the lawmakers thought it was important enough to make it a law, the least they can do is enforce it.  If not repeal it!

The guns aren't dangerous in the right hands, but in the wrong ones they are lethal.  Stevie Wonder could see that those of the mexican drug cartel are the wrong ones!

Well again, I'm not necessarily talking about the opinion of anyone here. I think we're pretty much in total agreement on that subject. But there are people who are WAY to the right of our sensible approach and I know a few personally. Actually, more than a few. It's one of the reasons why I don't really hang around with gun people all that much.

"Gun people" .... stereotype much? 

I'm thinkin' you must not hang out with bikers much... at least here in Florida nearly all the bikers I know carry. 

[The Anvil]

Just to play DA here, if guns aren't dangerous and don't need to be controlled then why is what ATF did so out of line?

I've got a coworker who thinks that there should be NO laws restricting gun ownership. Curiously though, he shares your opinion that someone should go to jail for FAF. I find that odd, but I think I know where them mindset comes from.i

I never said there should be no gun laws, just sensible ones.  When you have a Marine (with an out of state CWP) facing 15 years in New York, because they don't reciprocate, yet the government can just ignore gun laws (and others to boot), something is wrong.  If the lawmakers thought it was important enough to make it a law, the least they can do is enforce it.  If not repeal it!

The guns aren't dangerous in the right hands, but in the wrong ones they are lethal.  Stevie Wonder could see that those of the mexican drug cartel are the wrong ones!

Well again, I'm not necessarily talking about the opinion of anyone here. I think we're pretty much in total agreement on that subject. But there are people who are WAY to the right of our sensible approach and I know a few personally. Actually, more than a few. It's one of the reasons why I don't really hang around with gun people all that much.

"Gun people" .... stereotype much?  

I'm thinkin' you must not hang out with bikers much... at least here in Florida nearly all the bikers I know carry.  

"gun people". What I referring to with that term is; people who's lives revolve around guns. I am a person who owns and shoots guns. But they are not the most important thing in my life and they don't make sexually aroused so I don't really think of myself as a "gun person". I know people who work for no other reason than to support a gun habit.

Gun people are the ones who carry backup pistols to go to the supermarket and keep ten fully loaded magazines on hand at all times "just in case". I find these people impossible to be around because the subject always turns into a discussion about the enemy at the gate. Gun people are defined by their guns. I realize that the term doesn't mean that to everyone.

[Bob E.]

Bob,

Violation of the guns laws is a felony, that any one of us would be doing time for.  The government can do it with no recrimination?  Also as a result of this felonious behavior, a (I believe) border patrol agent? was killed with one of those weapons.  The government, I should say ATF has not even accepted ANY responsibility or apologized to the deceased agents family.  Who ever approved Fast and Furious should be tried for murder.

BTW, enjoyed riding to the HHR with you, We'll have to do it again.

I also enjoyed the ride down to HHR...it certainly was more fun than my ride home by myself.  I was actually wondering this morning while sitting on the parkway when SmokinJoe was going to announce this year's ride.

As to the F&F debacle, like I said, I wasn't really defending it.  But this story has been spun politically to make it seem like our evil gov't run by Obama was making deals with drug cartels in Mexico similar to the Iran-Contra dealings with the intent of using it as an excuse to attack the 2nd amendment.  I just don't buy it. 

As to the gov't being involved in illegal activity, I would liken this (as I did the last time it was discussed here) to cops dealing drugs to catch drug dealers.  I have a friend on the local county drug task force who does this exact thing.  His life and other cops lives are in danger and any one of them could be killed by one of their drug dealers if a deal goes bad or if someone finds out who they are.  It is unfortunate when it happens, but law enforcement uses these tactics all the time.

[texaninsouthfl]

Just to play DA here, if guns aren't dangerous and don't need to be controlled then why is what ATF did so out of line?

I've got a coworker who thinks that there should be NO laws restricting gun ownership. Curiously though, he shares your opinion that someone should go to jail for FAF. I find that odd, but I think I know where them mindset comes from.i

I never said there should be no gun laws, just sensible ones.  When you have a Marine (with an out of state CWP) facing 15 years in New York, because they don't reciprocate, yet the government can just ignore gun laws (and others to boot), something is wrong.  If the lawmakers thought it was important enough to make it a law, the least they can do is enforce it.  If not repeal it!

The guns aren't dangerous in the right hands, but in the wrong ones they are lethal.  Stevie Wonder could see that those of the mexican drug cartel are the wrong ones!

Well again, I'm not necessarily talking about the opinion of anyone here. I think we're pretty much in total agreement on that subject. But there are people who are WAY to the right of our sensible approach and I know a few personally. Actually, more than a few. It's one of the reasons why I don't really hang around with gun people all that much.

"Gun people" .... stereotype much?  

I'm thinkin' you must not hang out with bikers much... at least here in Florida nearly all the bikers I know carry.  

"gun people". What I referring to with that term is; people who's lives revolve around guns. I am a person who owns and shoots guns. But they are not the most important thing in my life and they don't make sexually aroused so I don't really think of myself as a "gun person". I know people who work for no other reason than to support a gun habit.

Gun people are the ones who carry backup pistols to go to the supermarket and keep ten fully loaded magazines on hand at all times "just in case". I find these people impossible to be around because the subject always turns into a discussion about the enemy at the gate. Gun people are defined by their guns. I realize that the term doesn't mean that to everyone.

Hells bells, here all along I've been thinking of myself as a "gun person" and never knew I was supposed to be getting a bigger "thrill" from it. So are you supposed to get aroused when handling other people's weapons, or just your own? I'm thinking it could get a little awkward at the range... A buddy says, "Hey dude, here, check out my new HK... WHOA there big fella! I can see you really like my new pistol!"  

As for backup pistols, loaded magazines and such... Guilty as charged. Well, I don't carry a bunch of mags with me, but have em ready elsewhere in preparation for the zombie apocalypse.  "Just because you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you!"

[FryeVRCCDS0067]

Ha! I think I’m one of those "gun people" you're talking about and I guess I'm a member of one of those "gun families" too.

My kids were all taught about firearms right along with being taught not to touch a hot stove or walk out in front of traffic. Son Joe took his first deer at 12 years old. He scouted out his own spot on the neighbors farm and was hunting alone while skipping out of school for "nature studies" with my permission. Son Andy took his first at 11 years old with a bolt action muzzle-loader I built from a kit and glass bedded like a high power rifle. It had a high quality adjustable trigger and had already killed my first 17 or 18 deer. All one shot kills.

Shooting rifles, handguns, bows, muzzle-loaders, fishing, winter and summer camping and riding motorcycles is what our family did together when the kids were growing up. My kids kept there own firearms in their own rooms from when they were 12 or so. And, just like the house I grew up in, nearly every drawer in our house has some ammo floating around it.

My kids are grown now and although only one of them still rides all of them still shoot. At our family gatherings the kids and most of the adults usually shoot handguns and sometimes rifles. My son Joe owns a hunting website. My two oldest grandsons (12 & 14) both own their own firearms. I buy an engraved knife (Smith & Wesson, Browning & Walther knifes so far) for each grandchild and give it to their parents to give to them when they are ready for it.

I taught my kids and am teaching my grand-kids that protecting their freedoms, both for themselves and future generations is one of the most important things they can do in life.

I'm a former gunsmith and a life member of the NRA. And, although I don't get a woody from handling a new firearm or riding a fast motorcycle, sometimes it's a near thing. 

And, I always vote for the 2’nd Amendment first. I study each candidate carefully to see which one best protects my constitutional rights. And, which one will most likely nominate court justices who will protect my rights. And, that’s who I vote for.

Obama won’t be that person unless he’s running against Sara Brady.

And, generally the same ones who support our right to own firearms are the ones who will also support our right to ride. The nanny state people don’t seem to care much for motorcycles either.

So, I guess I’m one of those crazys Anvil mentions. And I couldn’t be prouder. 

[Skinhead]

Bob,

Violation of the guns laws is a felony, that any one of us would be doing time for.  The government can do it with no recrimination?  Also as a result of this felonious behavior, a (I believe) border patrol agent? was killed with one of those weapons.  The government, I should say ATF has not even accepted ANY responsibility or apologized to the deceased agents family.  Who ever approved Fast and Furious should be tried for murder.

BTW, enjoyed riding to the HHR with you, We'll have to do it again.

I also enjoyed the ride down to HHR...it certainly was more fun than my ride home by myself.  I was actually wondering this morning while sitting on the parkway when SmokinJoe was going to announce this year's ride.

As to the F&F debacle, like I said, I wasn't really defending it.  But this story has been spun politically to make it seem like our evil gov't run by Obama was making deals with drug cartels in Mexico similar to the Iran-Contra dealings with the intent of using it as an excuse to attack the 2nd amendment.  I just don't buy it. 

As to the gov't being involved in illegal activity, I would liken this (as I did the last time it was discussed here) to cops dealing drugs to catch drug dealers.  I have a friend on the local county drug task force who does this exact thing.  His life and other cops lives are in danger and any one of them could be killed by one of their drug dealers if a deal goes bad or if someone finds out who they are.  It is unfortunate when it happens, but law enforcement uses these tactics all the time.

I know you weren't defending F&F, and I don't know about all the ways it was spun, the one that struck home with me was to prove to the American people that the US and it's "lax" gunlaws were the source of the guns used by the drug cartels, and there fore further restriction of our rights under the second amendment were called for.  This makes sense TO ME.  If you can come up with a more plausible reason for them to do this, I'm all ears..

As for SJ's ride, I believe he already said it's back to Franklin, WV.  BTW, my BIL Hozzy bought a '95 goldwing last fall, you should look him up and go for a cruise when the weather breaks.

[Bob E.]

I know you weren't defending F&F, and I don't know about all the ways it was spun, the one that struck home with me was to prove to the American people that the US and it's "lax" gunlaws were the source of the guns used by the drug cartels, and there fore further restriction of our rights under the second amendment were called for.  This makes sense TO ME.  If you can come up with a more plausible reason for them to do this, I'm all ears..

As for SJ's ride, I believe he already said it's back to Franklin, WV.  BTW, my BIL Hozzy bought a '95 goldwing last fall, you should look him up and go for a cruise when the weather breaks.

It is no secret that the cartels were and still are taking advantage of the very easy access to guns in AZ and TX.  I guess I just don't see wanting to crack down on illegal gun trafficking by some of the most violent criminals from another country as an attack on the 2nd amendment.  But that's just me. 

I did see that Highbinder posted an advance notice of the ride just today.  I really hope I can make it.  After the HHR last year, I barely got any miles in since I was suffering with my back.  I only got about 2500 miles or so...maybe 3000 at most all year.  As I sit here listening to the freezing rain falling, I really could go for a good ride.

[fudgie]

My gun is the most important thing in my life when I need it.  I carry extra clip in the truck or when we travel I'll throw them in the bag. Also traveling I carry 2 guns and Kit carries hers. My 2 are different and have different applications. My HD bud has a 100 guns and we rarly talk about guns. The most he will ask before a ride is 'where we going and how many clips do I need?'