Shutting Detroit Down, and not just Detroit

[Stude]

Mickey Rourke Flew back from Africa  where he was filming a movie ( at his own expense) to make

this video with Kris Kristofferson. I doubt if you'll find very many other Hollywood Liberals making this kind

of effort, it would be nice if they did.

THIS MUSIC VIDEO IS SO TRUE AND MAYBE SOME DAY SOME IDIOT IN WASHINGTON  WILL GET WHAT IS

HAPPENING HERE!!!!! IT NEEDS TO STOP!!!!!   IT CAN BE ANY OF US IN THIS VIDEO!!!!

 

Click on the link below and watch the video!!!!! 

 
http://heavens-gates.com/usworkers/

[Jeff K]

I typed up a whole bunch... then deleted it.
Poorly run businesses are supposed to fail. You could say that its not the fault of the employees, but I wouldn't totally agree. We just opened a new plant to take business away from a someone else. They were so fat and happy there that they couldn't compete. There was a forklift driver there that was making $93,000/yr. Do you really think his skills are worth $93,000? Well, the short story is, they are closing. And we are hiring, our fork lift driver makes $30,000/yr and I believe that is a fair wage for his skills.

Donning flame proof suit.

[Stude]

 Why hold back you're an intelligent well educated man, I'm sure you don't use the news reports as fact. You have my e-mail address Jeff send it to me or post it here.
I would like to have the chance to give you a tour and point out a few things to you. Like how the work force is trained and how often our technology is changed  the
pressure that is put on everyone to fix or bring up to standards the work that is outsourced. The most money made by any one trade at G.M. where is a Die Designer at
an hourly rate of $36.00 an hour. For the past 20 years up till june of 2008 we all worked 11.5 hours a day 7 days a week, now everyone is on a 40 hour work week.
The fork truck driver that you spoke about was that his base rate or what he took home working 12 - 15 hours a day? anything can be painted to support one side or the
other. Truth about Detroit , our banks, our country won't find it on the 6 O'clock news or in local papers, if it has to do with money or power someone is getting screwed.
And guess what group of people "SOMEONE" is........ it's everyone.

[Momz]

I must be hard for those individuals that aren't here in Michigan to realize the real severity of the problems that plague the entire industry.

There are those that point the finger at hourly workers without realizing that they are just doing what management requires of them. Hourly workers are just the bottom rung and an easy target for those that want to critisize without looking at the real root causes.

Some claim that union wages are so high that it cripples a companies profitability. However those wages were agreed upon during negotiations between labor and management. If one were to compare the hourly wages to the compensation paid to supervisory and management personnel, the disparity would shock even the most casual observer.

Jeff K stated that a forklift driver made 93K, without saying what that workers base rate was. Almost any hourly worker can make a ton of money if he/she gives up family time and any social life just to work as much overtime as possible. Companies love to have those indivduals making those big salaries and working long hours and 6 to 7 days per week. In the long run the company only pays for one persons pension, health insurance, and vacation expenses, rather than those costs times the number of other employees it would take to replace that one employee that does work excessive overtime.

There are so many management types in large corporations that don't have a clue what it takes to manufacture cars, parts, or any type of assembly. These are the MBAs of the eighties, with a load of theory and no practical experience. Those that look at the short term out look, without a true vision of the future.

The last company that I worked for decided to outsource all design work to firm in India. The reasoning was that they could get engineers with Masters Degrees to work for an average of 8 to 9K per year without any legacy costs. Yet these engineers had no automotive experience whatsoever and after 18 months that contract was cancelled. The results of this had cost the company several large automotive contracts and it lost a large data base of experienced and long time domestic engineers.

The company also closed a large manufacturing plant in Australia, then sent all its machinery to a new plant in China. The Chinese had no experience in dimensional tolerancing or quality control. The results were disasterous and costly, with the company losing even more business. The Aussie plant had virtually 100% of the automotive business on that continent and was the most profitible plant in the entire organization.

So if you think that workers are to blame for this economic mess,.....dig a bit deeper,.....you may find that it is more a result of corporate greed and managerial stupidity.

[Scott in Ok]

Some claim that union wages are so high that it cripples a companies profitability. However those wages were agreed upon during negotiations between labor and management. If one were to compare the hourly wages to the compensation paid to supervisory and management personnel, the disparity would shock even the most casual observer.

Poorly run businesses are supposed to fail. You could say that its not the fault of the employees, but I wouldn't totally agree.

I think what you are saying Momz, is exactly what JeffK is saying. Jeff's point, based on his example, is that poorly managed companies will and do fail.  Its not the workers fault he's getting 93k a year, its that someone in the management of the company agreed to pay him 93k(and others like him?).

I've working in a factory setting my entire working career, and the management philosophy in my part of the country, and in the companies I've worked for is very different from that of the auto industry.   We're alive and well, even though business is down, and profits have fallen off.  A well managed company, in a strong cash position will survive to do business another day.

Now Dave, with respect to the video, I would disagree with the sentiment conveyed in the video.  The mindset that a worker that has 32 years in a job is entitled to that job over someone who only has 10 years in job, based on seniority alone is a poor management decision.  Here where I work we just had a co-worker laid off in a downsizing plan, who had 25 years in.  On the bottom of the scale, we have a guy with only 2 years.  The fact is this guy who got laid off, who happened to be a very good friend of mine, was lazy and was not a productive employee. The guy with only 2 years in is hard working, very skilled, and is a valuable asset to the company.

With all that said, I really don't see how anyone is Washington has anything to do with the problems in your situation.  No manner of bailouts and government oversight is going to save a company who can't make a profit.  I don't WANT them to fail, nor do I want you or anyone else to lose their job, but it is what it is.

I say all that with respect, and from a perspective outside of Michigan.

-Scott

[RTaz]

I must be hard for those individuals that aren't here in Michigan to realize the real severity of the problems that plague the entire industry.

There are those that point the finger at hourly workers without realizing that they are just doing what management requires of them. Hourly workers are just the bottom rung and an easy target for those that want to critisize without looking at the real root causes.

Some claim that union wages are so high that it cripples a companies profitability. However those wages were agreed upon during negotiations between labor and management. If one were to compare the hourly wages to the compensation paid to supervisory and management personnel, the disparity would shock even the most casual observer.

Jeff K stated that a forklift driver made 93K, without saying what that workers base rate was. Almost any hourly worker can make a ton of money if he/she gives up family time and any social life just to work as much overtime as possible. Companies love to have those indivduals making those big salaries and working long hours and 6 to 7 days per week. In the long run the company only pays for one persons pension, health insurance, and vacation expenses, rather than those costs times the number of other employees it would take to replace that one employee that does work excessive overtime.

There are so many management types in large corporations that don't have a clue what it takes to manufacture cars, parts, or any type of assembly. These are the MBAs of the eighties, with a load of theory and no practical experience. Those that look at the short term out look, without a true vision of the future.

The last company that I worked for decided to outsource all design work to firm in India. The reasoning was that they could get engineers with Masters Degrees to work for an average of 8 to 9K per year without any legacy costs. Yet these engineers had no automotive experience whatsoever and after 18 months that contract was cancelled. The results of this had cost the company several large automotive contracts and it lost a large data base of experienced and long time domestic engineers.

The company also closed a large manufacturing plant in Australia, then sent all its machinery to a new plant in China. The Chinese had no experience in dimensional tolerancing or quality control. The results were disasterous and costly, with the company losing even more business. The Aussie plant had virtually 100% of the automotive business on that continent and was the most profitible plant in the entire organization.

So if you think that workers are to blame for this economic mess,.....dig a bit deeper,.....you may find that it is more a result of corporate greed and managerial stupidity.

...thanks momz for your insight and observations...many folks will continue to see things and form opinion's without all the information about how we truly got into this mess...it is very easy to point fingers and blame the most visible people ..the workers...the unions...the retiree's...but they are actually a small cost of the product...when Delphi employee's took a 50% reduction in pay and benefits did that help the company out of bankruptcy...no...  people will not understand what is happening to Michigan workers until the middle class in their State are effected...many people in this forums have lost jobs and had to start over from scratch and I really feel for them...but we have an entire State that has had double digit unemployment for a few years ...there are simply no jobs to be had...how can anyone raise a family on $7.50 an hour pay with no benefits? now I wait for somebody to say well just move away there are plenty of jobs out there... WHERE do you suggest an entire State move to? We are not asking for anything but some understanding...Michigan has always been known for our strong innovative and highly productive work force our industrial base goes back over a hundred years our workers will match up with any workers anywhere...but the plan truth is the playing field is not equal ...not here or sad to say anywhere in this country and if you don't watch out this is going to happen to you too...we have become a country that doesn't make anything...we can not survive on just services ...we need to produce product that is the bottom line... 

[~ Timbrwolf]

....I think...Award winning Political cartoonist Mike Thompson...hit the nail on the head this morning in the Detroit Free Press....

[f6john]

My perspective on this is from someone who has only worked one year in a factory job. Everyone can't live in a car producing city. Therefore everyone has not had the same opportunity to enjoy the pay and benefits associated with a career in the auto production business. I don't believe many employees in the northern states who have enjoyed a high level of steady and secure employment realize just how good they have had it for the past 50 years. I'm not bragging about how poor I am as the Lord has blessed me over the years but I know there aren't any auto workers who would want to have traded paychecks with me. I don't blame the worker on the line for anything and would only hold him responsible for the quality of work he performed. But it is not my responsibility to make sure that an auto worker, banker,plumber or anyone else is propped up so they can maintain their lifestyle when things take a nosedive. I want to see the American auto industry thrive, I want to see them produce the best automobiles in the world, I want to see the employees and management come together to save what can be saved. We may be living in a time where a lot of sacrifices will have to be made by many which has become an almost foreign concept in our country.

My most humble thanks to the families whose sons and daughter have made the ultimate sacrifice for the rest of us and to those who continue to serve and their families my sincere appreciation and gratitude.

[Pat S.]

I worked for a small supplier to G.M. in Lansing Mi. for almost 20 years.

During that time NAFTA was enacted. We all new within a few years are jobs would be lost.

It took about 5 years to kill our buisness.

My wife lost her job of 23 years and I lost mine 6 months later.

7 years have now past and the wife and I are still making $20,000.00 less than we were used to making.

My point is, this is the new reality, everyone is going to suffer.

Other states are slowly starting to feel the same thing we have been feeling.

To me it's not a suprise. I 'm not blaming anyone but we all have to face the new challenges that none of us like.

Oh by the way would the last one out of Michigan please turn off the lights.

[Romeo]

Everyone who has responded to this posting has made, in my opinion, intelligent, thoughtful points. I have lived in Michigan all my life and truly love this state. I also hate what is happening to it. Having said that, I truly believe that we still live in a state of denial to a certain extent. The world has changed, and we are a part of that world. Like it or not, its time to compete. There is no conspiracy against us. We, and I mean all of us, management, labor, services, healthcare workers, educators, everyone, have to be better at what we do. The old ways, obviously, don't cut it anymore. Lets stop pointing fingers, realize the task at hand, and do what is needed to restore our standard of living.
   In the new world, seniority isnt enough. In the new world, making a quick profit isn't good enough. In the new world, if we expect to get paid more than our Chinese or Indian brothers, we have to bring something to the table that they cannot. Our leaders, executives and managers need to have vision, long term vision. They can't be restrained by quarterly profit expectations and short term thinking. Above all, we need to care about eachother, truly care, by doing things that benefit us all. Self interest does not translate into prosperity for the masses. Common interest does.
Oh, and one more thing. The lights will never go out in Michigan, because as long as this proud citizen can draw breath I will live in what I consider the best place on earth.

[gregc]

  We are talking about over paid ,under skilled workers, who have milked the golden cow to death.  Other then doing the few assembly jobs they have been trained to do ,they have no technical skills that are transferable to the automotive repair industry.  I have been a mechanic in the automotive repair industry for over 35 years, and worked piece work the whole time. Piece work is you are paid a predetermined time, times your hourly rate, to do a job, if you beat the time you make money. You take longer ,you make less for the job, if it comes back for the same problem you fix it for free. If these workers had some diagnostic skills they could transfer into the repair industry, mechanical skills same thing. Assembly and repeatitive workers don't deserve those kinds of hourly rates, and I blame the companies management for allowing it to get to this point. Of course the unions pressed for MORE and MORE for its members, or it would strike and shut the companies down, and management caved in and gave them their wish.
  Do I wish I had been given the same offers?  you bet, I could be retired right now. But the small business couldn't compete with that package and stay open. To bad the big companies didn't figure that out with all their bean counters and managers for managers. Chop away all the fat in big companies, work with just what is needed to be effective. American auto companies can come back.
  Bet I will get a SH*T load of remarks to this post from the union people. But I have always believed I have the same right to work and support my family as a union worker. And I did it for less money and benifits.

[Chillerman]

I work for a union and I get paid very well for what I do.  I also consider myself a highly skilled worker with a outstanding work ethic who makes a good profit for my company.  It is no secret that I work for Carrier Corp and because of my skill set they pay me well over union scale.  The problem with the union is that any member who has a certain amount of years in can make as much as any other member.  There is no performance requirement and no real incentive for most union members to perform at anything above an adequate level (adequate in the US only!).  Most every member makes within a couple of dollars an hour of each other.  How does that promote quality craftmanship and a skilled labor force? It does not.  It makes everyone equal whether they are or not.  Some lazy ass POS can make as much money as a young go getter.  The unions protect their workers to the detriment of their employers and the consumer and I have seen it first hand.  I believe that competition is what drives a capable, profitable work force.  May the best man win!!!  Oh wait, that goes against everything Obama is for, sorry.

Sean

[Duffy]

As long as facts aren't important, that's a video that pulls at your heart for sure.

The video talks about living it up in NYC (referring we assume to Wall Street, etc). Well BS! I know of guys that have worked hard all of their careers at Merrill Lynch or Bear Stearns or Lehman Brothers and they had their life savings in retirement plans with their company stock (I know - diversify). Now they have lost their jobs (nobody hiring on "Wall Street" either) AND their retirement.  And they don't have a union pension that some do for retirement.

So, my only point is, it's tough all over and representing that the blue collar worker is the only victim is BS!

If GM goes under/downsizes, there will be (and should be) many office, management and white collar jobs lost too.

Many businesses need to be brought to a more competative postion, that is painful for all involved.