No spark - question abt pulse generators - 97 Tourer

[Sambo21]

Not getting spark at any plug.  Freshly-charged battery.  I read thru the archives abt "no spark" problem but one thing I don't understand: If only one pulse generator goes bad wouldn't at least 4 plugs fire, or would one bad one cause no spark at any plugs?  Hard to believe that both pulse generators died at exactly the same moment.

[Bone]

Freshly charged doesn't mean there is enough voltage to fire the ignition. The starter will crank very fast on a low battery. Can you jump it off of a fully charged car battery ?

IMPORTANT ----non running car !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Patrick]

Both generators are probably not bad, it only takes one.. If one goes bad [probably open] then neither will work, the system needs both.. Generator replacement is rare, but, it has been necessary a couple times over the years..
As mentioned, I'd also suggest trying another known good battery.. Keep it simple for now.. Have you recently had the ICM connector off for some reason or does this monster have an early Dyna ICM ??

[Daniel Meyer]

There are only 3 coils. Each fires two plugs. The pulse gens work together, don't know exactly how. If one goes the bike may not run.

Check the battery first though. It should read around 12.3 volts *when cranking* or it's probably the problem. Check fuses and cables too.

[R J]

Me, I'm lazy, I just go get the truck, pull up beside the bike, turn it OFF, grab the jumper cables and hook em up.

If, the bike starts it is the battery, if not, then it is something else, like maybe a burned up starter relay.

Kind of like this one.



If so, order this part # and move the RED wire to match the Valk.
This unit is for an older Gold Wing, this way you do not have to replace the whole damn wiring loom.   That is the part # in the picture.

[RP#62]

One of the pulse generators tells the ICM crank position (it looks for the missing tooth).  The other one tells it RPM (it counts the time between consecutive teeth, ignoring the missing tooth).  Once the ICM knows RPM and crank position, it knows if, what and when to fire.
-RP

[bassman]

Not getting spark at any plug.  Freshly-charged battery.  I read thru the archives abt "no spark" problem but one thing I don't understand: If only one pulse generator goes bad wouldn't at least 4 plugs fire, or would one bad one cause no spark at any plugs?  Hard to believe that both pulse generators died at exactly the same moment.

Had my IPG's replaced as a pair several years ago......I know one was bad but not certain of the second one. Believe they are sold in pairs for about $80 or less so both of mine were done at the same time.  NOT a common repair but there are a few of us who have experienced it.

[Robert]

One side of the coil goes to the icm the other side should have power like 12v with the key on if it doesn't then the line goes to the ignition switch, fuse,bank angle sensor, cut off switch then to the coils if I remember correctly.

[Ricky-D]

One side of the coil goes to the icm the other side should have power like 12v with the key on if it doesn't then the line goes to the ignition switch, fuse,bank angle sensor, cut off switch then to the coils if I remember correctly.

I would think that some of those mentioned item must be Ok since he can get the motor to turn over, or at least he is indicating that fact.

I suspect the "freshly charged battery" may just be an assumption and would suspect, as others have stated, the problem lay with a poorly performing battery.

It usually is, the simplest, is the correct answer.

***

[98valk]

To Patrick >  What is the "early Dyna ICM", how do I tell if I have it and what is (was) the problem with it?

its blue with dials on top. OEM is a black box

[olddog1946]

Sounds to me like the ICM is belly up. If the battery has good power, coils get voltage, nothing is telling them to fire.

[bassman]

Go to the following link and in empty box saying "Messages containing....." type in IPG and read through the messages....I think there's a way to check the IPG's at a connector in the triple tree area and there should be an message discussing this as well as other options and info....I don't "think" they are hard to replace but this is coming from a guy who had it done by the dealer when mine went bad.  Good luck

http://www.valkyrieforum.com/forum/tech_archive.cgi

[Bigwolf]

Sam, you posted:

Each coil is getting 12v from the battery and the peak voltage from the ICM is running 125-140v (spec is 100v minimum) measured with a peak voltage meter at the coils.  This would mean that the ICM is getting pulses from the IPG's and eliminates everything before it: stop switch, bank and sidestand switches, etc.  But to be doubly sure I checked the IPG's anyway.

That sounds a bit confusing.  The ICM provides the ground for the coils.  Therefore, I am assuming you checked this "peak voltage" while cranking the engine with the ICM hooked up.  If the coils are getting the 12 volt feed they are supposed to have (black wire with white tracer),  then you can use a jumper wire to momentarily ground the other side of the coil and check the primary voltage when you do that.  Is that primary voltage still 125 - 140?  I believe you have proven that the ignition coils are working properly since this is within spec, however, if the primary voltage reads a lot different when you use a jumper, then there might be a problem in the ICM.  You say there is no fire at the plugs but if your primary voltage from the coil (each of the 3 coils) is within the 125 - 140 range as you stated, then the problem is probably between the coil and the tip of the plug.  How are you testing for spark at the plugs?  I hope you are keeping in mind that number 2 plug has to be grounded when checking number one for spark.....by grounded I mean that both plugs must have the plug body grounded and fire together.  If one is disconnected, then the other will not fire.  The same is true for number 3 & 4 and also for numbers 5 & 6.   I have to use a jumper cable to provide ground to a good plug I keep handy just for this purpose while I leave the other plug in it's hole with plug wire connected.  Have you tried a new set of plugs?

Bigwolf

[BigBluef6]

Sambo, check your PM.  I have an ICM i can lend you to test with. 

[MP]

Have you tried removing the ICM, and replugging it back in?  Might just need the contacts polished a little.

[BonS]

I hate to be a doubting Thomas but here goes - Have you opened each of the carburetor drain screws and verified that the bowls have fuel? There, I'm not going to mention it again.

[Bigwolf]

Obviously I got all confused when I posted earlier.     It sounds like you are following the manual diagnostic and if you are, then you already have read that the likely cause is:

1 . Faulty spark plug or leaking ignition coil secondary current
ampere.
2. Faulty ignition coils.

Personally, I find it strange that all 3 coils would start having a problem at the same time but why not?  I have seen all the sparkplugs go sour at the same time.  The same thing has been true with plug wires I have dealt with.  I do not have much experience with multiple coils on the same engine but I do trust the Honda repair manual.  At least until experience dictates differently.

Bigwolf

[BlueValk]

It sounds like your pulse generators, your ICM and your coils are working.  I bet dollars to doughnuts that not all three coils are bad.
I suspect that you do have spark.  Either you are not seeing it, or you have something wrong (improper grounding). 

Here is a simple test.  With the ignition on, manually (quickly) ground the low side of your coil (any of them) and then release that ground, it will give you a spark at the spark plug(s).  I bet that you get a spark. 

That would show that your coils are good.  It still could be the ICM, but that seems to be really rare (unless it is an after market).

Would like to hear the results of this test ....

BlueValk

[valky1500]

Ever notice that "Engine On / Off" switch on the right side of the handle bars? That little switch can rob you of power. Yes it can. Over the past 10-15 years it's contacts have been corroding. The little springs are all gummed up. The end result is high resistance. As much as 2 or 3 ohms. That's a lot. That means that you drop as much as a volt or so across the contacts. That means that your coils are not getting all the current they need to produce a good spark at the plugs. Hard starting. Rough idle. Missing at the top end.

So, every 5 years or so, you need to check the switch for high resistance and take it apart and clean those cheap brass contacts. If you can read any resistance at all with an everyday volt / ohmmeter, then the contacts are crap and need to be cleaned.
disassemble the kill switch and clean the contacts to reduce the voltage drop and increase the current going to the coils.

[Daniel Meyer]

Battery is fresh, 12.6v at rest, dropping to 11.3v while cranking.  But still zero spark.

I have a verey difficult time believing that all three coils died within 20 minutes.

May not be your only problem, but your battery is toast. It should easily hold over 12v while cranking. This low of a voltage may be kicking out your ICM when the voltage drops that low. In theory the attempted jump start should rule that out, but I guess a bad connection somewhere (cables/grounds) could still let it happen.

I also don't believe you have bad coils either.

Check your battery cable ground for corrosion as well, and make sure you are checking for spark with both plugs on a coil hooked up and grounded.

[98valk]

Update:

Bigbluef6 very generously loaned me his spare ICM but still no spark!  Another thing I tried:  I disconnected both leads from the 1-2 coil, completely isolating it electrically from the bike.  I connected the + directly to the battery, then took a wire from the battery negative and touched it to the coil negative -- no spark!  Did the same with both other coils with the same result.  Unbelievably it seems that I have 3 bad coils.

I've ordered one new one and will see what happens.  If that works then I'll order two more.
Shouldn't I be getting a nice fat spark??

check the wires at the connector to the ICM. mine had one wire with a short radius that broke the wire. get a meter out and the schematic and start checking wires btwn connectors, u have a short/broken wire somewhere. Its not your coils, coils rarely if ever go bad. check the main fuse.

http://www.rattlebars.com/valkfaq/schematics/index.html

[Daniel Meyer]

Update:

Bigbluef6 very generously loaned me his spare ICM but still no spark!  Another thing I tried:  I disconnected both leads from the 1-2 coil, completely isolating it electrically from the bike.  I connected the + directly to the battery, then took a wire from the battery negative and touched it to the coil negative -- no spark!  Did the same with both other coils with the same result.  Unbelievably it seems that I have 3 bad coils.

I've ordered one new one and will see what happens.  If that works then I'll order two more.
Shouldn't I be getting a nice fat spark??

If you do this, the coil bracket needs to be grounded, and the plugs (one in each boot) threads need to be touching each other and ground. It will spark when you "break" the ground connection at the coil, not when you make it.

[wild6]

Your ignition coils are fine.

Check the resistance of each pickup coil.  They should read the same (< 2k ohms, I think).  One bad pickup coil can kill the whole ignition system.

I had this happen to my 98 Valk in 2006.  Rolled it out of the garage one morning and hit the starter, but no ignition.  Found one of the coils was open.  Picked-up a new set (they come wired together) and no problems since.  

BTW: I'm still using the same battery.

[98valk]

FINALLY...

I have a running bike!  It wasn't the ignition at all.  I just read the recent post on the quick-disconnect problems many have had, so removed mine which I had recently installed, replaced the oem fuel line and the bike started right up.  This is a great idea in concept, because disconnecting the fuel line is a pain, but it just doesn't seem to work as designed.

I have no explanation why the spark seemed to be absent but as long as the problem is solved and I'm up and running I really don't care any more.  You can be sure, however, that I plan to stick close to home for a while until I have full confidence that it keeps running ok.

Thanks to everyone who had made thoughtful suggestions and to Dan at bigbluef6 for the generous loan if his spare ICM.  You're all a great bunch!

Sambo

Glad your riding again.

I installed my quick disconnect and the hose horizontal and not like the instructions. Have never had a problem in over 10k miles.