turn signal mod on trunk lights

[N0tac0p]

I know there is "shop talk" about this, but my question is why go all the way to the front directionals and cut into those wires to operate the relays versus just using the rear directional wiring to do that.  the wiring is all under the seat?

[BF]

I'm no wiring guru, but I'd think that it's because the fronts function as a run/brake light....only they do it at the front of the bike instead of the doing it at the rear with red lenses instead of amber ones. 

The rears only have one function......turns......meaning the bulbs only lights up when the switch is energized whereas the fronts are powered all the time (just like your rear running lights) and then get brighter when the switch is energized for the turn function. 

[Sergeant D]

I'm no wiring guru, but I'd think that it's because the fronts function as a run/brake light....only they do it at the front of the bike instead of the doing it at the rear with red lenses instead of amber ones. 

The rears only have one function......turns......meaning the bulbs only lights up when the switch is energized whereas the fronts are powered all the time (just like your rear running lights) and then get brighter when the switch is energized for the turn function. 

Yep, an easier option is to get a "Back-off" or "Priority" lighting system that converts your rear turn signals into runnning/brake lights as well as turn signals.  Easy conversion at around $40 plus clear or red lenses (most states don't allow rear yellow runnning lights).

[Chattanooga Mark]

There was an Interstate tip I read at some point that suggested installing the outer dual filiment bulb and socket into the inner light assembies on the trunk. It would take a lot of work with a Dremel tool to cut away enough of inner lamp housing to fit the larger bulb and base. I'm not sure there's enough room to do it. It would be much easier to find a dual filiment buld to fits the smaller socket and simply jump the brake light hot wire into the inner assembly.

For my Interstate, I just added the Standard/Tourer tail light onto my fender after moving the Hondaline CB next to the battey. You need the tail light assembly, the large rubber base and the two Standard rear fender wire harnesses. 

All the best,

Mark

[OverdueBill]

I did the change of smaller bulb to 1157 on the trunk.  The plastic cuts very easy.  I'm still thinking about getting them to be turns also.  Also added the standard tail light to my IS.  Put front signal pods on the rear to get run/turns.  If you get an easy way to do it, please post.

[tank_post142]

the frt running light power is used to engage or disengage the relays to turn off the rear trunk running light while the turn signal is on. this power is only at the frt of the bike.

[N0tac0p]

how can thte pwoer ONLY be at the front of hte bike when you have rear turn signals that operate?  those require prower

[tank_post142]

what you need from the front is the power for the running lights ( it switches off when the turn  sig is engaged) to switch the relays. you need this sig from each side.
  you'll see running lights on until you engage each turn sig then that side's power will switch off until the turn is turned off.
 so when you run it to the back to power the relay the relay will be energized allowing the trunk lights to be used as run/brake lights. when the turn sig is engaged the relay will de-energize switching to turn signal power for that side(turn & brake use the same element in the bulb)

with out having to run this power back you can put a two element bulb and socket  in the inner light and just run turn signal power to it. the relay mod allows both bulbs to to be used for either brake or turn.

[N0tac0p]

I also did buy front siganls to put on the rear to make them both running and signal.  question is where would i now cut into to pick up the running light power

[RonW]

.... question is where would i now cut into to pick up the running light power

from the corresponding front running light wire. These have a stripe on them.

[RonW]

I also did buy front siganls to put on the rear to make them both running and signal.

Here .... you can retain your oem rear signals if you know your diodes. Just wire like this. The diode must be in place. The Front and Rear signals are factory hardwired together meaning any +12 input tapped into the rear signal's high-filament wire will back feed to the front high filament and you'll end up with double running lights in each of the front bulbs (2nd pic). Essentialy, you'rr joining 2 front wires into a single wire in the rear signal, however since the electricity in a front signal's 2 wires toggle, one is OFF while the other is ON, there'll be no conflicts in a single wire (1156 bulb).

[BF]

I also did buy front siganls to put on the rear to make them both running and signal.  question is where would i now cut into to pick up the running light power

Buy yourself a Clymer's manual for the Valk.  It has a very nice, easy to read, understand and follow color coded wiring schematic in the back of the book that's indispensable.  

http://www.directlineparts.com/product.asp?pid=399&str=2

[salty1]

Or, go to Dag's site and download the valkurie FSM.

http://www.valkyrienorway.com/download.html

[BF]

Or, go to Dag's site and download the valkurie FSM.

http://www.valkyrienorway.com/download.html

The Honda service manual has a very nice schematic, but it's in black and white, and IMHO, much harder to follow since the colors are labled on the diagram instead of the wires being shown colored.  Again, IMHO, the schematic in the Clymer's manual is much easier to read, follow and understand......and least for me it is.

[N0tac0p]

I know you know what you said, but not clear to me.

I would have thought I could just swap out ther rear signals with the fronts i bought.  wire / plu ing the signal side as it is today and then run an additional wire from the running light ciruit of the now installed (front ) signals on the rear to the one for the front.  done, right?

[MarkT]

http://www.horseapple.com/Valkyrie/Tech_Tips/IS_Trunk_Signals/is_trunk_signals.html

I didn't see any posts in this thread that explained it correctly.  The front running lights switch off when the turn signal is activated on that side.  So you can use that wire to trip a relay to select the source for the signal filiment in back - either from the turn signal circuit, or from the brake circuit.  The running light in back is unrelated, goes to the other filiment.



My rear marker lights on my standard are wired the same way and it works perfectly.  This enables you to have run, brake, and turn on the markers at minimal cost - just a pair of relays.  Now you may want to switch them to red color - I did, by using clear lenses and red LED arrays.  It is also possible to wire this mod using 1156 bulbs instead of 1157, by using diodes and resistors:  

[RonW]

I would have thought I could just swap out ther rear signals with the fronts i bought ....

.... then run an additional wire from the running light ciruit of the now installed (front ) signals on the rear to the one for the front.  done, right?

Should work. The signals don't know or even care where they're mounted on the bike and the functions should then be duplicated. Perhaps, run a test wire before wiring things together permanently. The diagram that I posted was for using the stock setup, less work, basically just running the 'wire' stern to aft but using the 1156 single-filament bulb.

[tank_post142]

Mark: your the man ! i couldn't  articulate the explanation this morning because of a hangover.

[N0tac0p]

Mark, your MOd is for the outer trunk lights to act as signals.  i understand that and have the material.  my question is i have a set of front signals i want to put on the back in plac eof my back signals and use the "low" filament as running light and the high (as is with my curretn back signals) as my signal lamp.

but what wire might i tap into to wire the "new" second filament in my back siganls for running lights (as the siganl wire is apready there for plug and play

[tank_post142]

just tap the wire to the lic plate light

[N0tac0p]

thaaaaaat'd be a big.... DOH!


good thought

[N0tac0p]

PS,everyone.  How about it,  let's hear it for Mark 1st ride.   nIceeeee

[RonW]

with a tap off the lic plate light wire, the running light won't shut off for the duration that the signals are flashing. Would it matter? That is, with the dark moments between flashes being lit up by the running light on the low-filament, would the blinks be obscure? From my experience, it didn't matter on a pair of signals that I wired up.

MarkT's diagram is the most innovative you'd find anywhere for rigging a single-filament bulb for dual functions plus brake lights. Especially reversing the outputs with the inputs on the relay or the equivalent of a reverse X-OR gate in boolean algebra. This is of course applies to a single-filament bulb, er, if you elect to use a 2-filament bulb instead, that amounts to less fun. Why not add a brake light to the same bulb, then.

[N0tac0p]

Perhaps i'll do a battery test before i go thru all the trouble. or com  eup with some innovative wiring so that whent he siganl filament comes on  the running light cycle with it

[tank_post142]

i used the 3157 bulb? normal running light, 2-3x brighter than the 1157 on the turn filament.  

ps: do NOT use halogen bulbs on your bike:
http://www.webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-technical-articles/halogen/

[MarkT]

If you run the marker lights in back as a running light, using tungsten bulbs, and you have luggage, the heat they generate will make the plastic inside melt and the guts fall out.  I ruined 4  back pods this way.  It turns out that luggage in front of them blocks cooling airflow, combined with daytime warmth & the sun, and your pods are melted.  After I melted 4 of them, I installed a night switch to turn off the pods and some other lights (including the instrument backlights) in the daytime.  Bonus, shutting off the instrument lights until it was dark also eliminates the disappearing numerals problem on the instruments. (In fact, that was my first purpose, fixing the instrument lights)  Wrote that up here:  http://www.horseapple.com/Valkyrie/Tech_Tips/Instrument_Lights/instrument_lights.html  I don't mention in the article that the rear pods are switched on this circuit - added them to the circuit later, after melting the pods.  The problem went away.  I have since replaced the tungsten bulbs with LED arrays, which make very little heat in comparison.  In fact, what heat there is, comes from the resistor in the LED circuit, which is there to adjust the voltage for the LED's.  So if you use LED arrays in the first place, you won't have a melting problem.  (Yes, hi-power LED's like 5w Luxeons need cooling, but not the little ones you use in this application.)

[N0tac0p]

WOW, you lost me.  marker lights (.......?) in the back as running lights?  heat will melt pods (......?).  on my I/S, the marker lights, all 4,  in the trunk are always on and the two outer ones get brighter (as they are dual filamnet as teh brake is applied.  but htey are alway on, so are you saying you can't put stuff in the trunk?

the lights in am talking about are the signal / license plate assy.  there is no luggage in front of those, they are located on on the fender.  puttting on front assemblies so to have two circuits and use one for the signal (that is already there) and then use the new circuit to have them as running lights (and of course do your above mod, so to have two different heights and locations flashing for signals)

I really don't have a clue where you are coming from,  Sorry.

[tank_post142]

your first question referring to the relays caused us all to assume you were talking  about the trunk light mod rather than the tail light mod.

[MP]

your first question referring to the relays caused us all to assume you were talking  about the trunk light mod rather than the tail light mod.

Me too.

MP

[N0tac0p]

that is correct, I was asking a questrion about that part of it," why go to the front vs using the wiring that is already going to the back for the signals" 

then about half way down i also state that i had bought front signals to go on the back so to use the 2nd circuit as a signal.......and had anyonde done that I(that way you have two levels of signals and running lights to get their attention)


so then that question was, "how to accomplish that."


sorry for the confusion

[MarkT]

WOW, you lost me.  marker lights (.......?) in the back as running lights?  heat will melt pods (......?).  on my I/S, the marker lights, all 4,  in the trunk are always on and the two outer ones get brighter (as they are dual filamnet as teh brake is applied.  but htey are alway on, so are you saying you can't put stuff in the trunk?

the lights in am talking about are the signal / license plate assy.  there is no luggage in front of those, they are located on on the fender.  puttting on front assemblies so to have two circuits and use one for the signal (that is already there) and then use the new circuit to have them as running lights (and of course do your above mod, so to have two different heights and locations flashing for signals)

I really don't have a clue where you are coming from,  Sorry.

The problem with heat and melting is with putting front light pods on the rear to use 1157 (or dual filament) bulbs - the turn signal pods on the fender - your side bags blocks the air flow on them so they are sitting in pretty still air.  They don't overheat in use as Honda set them up, but if you mod them so they act as running lights and leave them on all the time they will melt inside. The pods used in front with 1157 bulbs don't melt because they are sitting in the air stream. The cool air at night is enough to cool them and keep them from melting so they need to be switched off in the daytime.  Or if you use LED lights instead of incandescent (tungsten), there isn't much heat developed and not a problem. The problem will still exist if you use my second diagram above to use single filament bulbs for all three uses - the problem is the heat generated by having the running filament on all the time.  When I mentioned doing this mod on my bike, it's a standard, and that's where the problem is, not the Interstate trunk lights.  The IS uses the trunk lights for running lights, they are already on all the time, correct?  My mod lets you use them for all 3 functions.

Here's one place you can get LED array "bulbs": http://www.radiantz.com/index1.html?c14.html&1 Note P/N 5302-19 is a red LED cluster - all you need then is a clear lens, which is available from an outfit that uses to be called Clear Alternatives - I see if you google that phrase, you get lots of retailers selling Clear Alternatives stuff. Looks like they may have changed their website to http://stores.motolume.com/StoreFront.bok  I haven't tried this brand of LED "bulb", I don't know if they will fit in the pods directly without any mods other than the 1157 socket change.  If you use my second diagram above, you could use an array set up as 1156 (single lead) and then not have to use front pods, could use the ones made for the rear and still have all 3 functons.

[MarkT]

Perhaps i'll do a battery test before i go thru all the trouble. or com  eup with some innovative wiring so that whent he siganl filament comes on  the running light cycle with it

You don't need to invent any new circuit for this, just use the circuit Honda already set up in the front - tap into the orange/white wire, and other side the blue/white wire, and run them to the back.  However you will still need to switch them off in the daytime, or instead use LED bulbs, or you'll have the melting pods problem. These wires run from the handle bar turn switch into the headlight loom, so you can access them at a convenient point in between.  

BTW, I didn't bother with this aspect of the design - In my mind, it's Honda overkill - extra quality to the design that's not necessary.  On failure - what happens if someone in front of you can't see clearly that you are signaling and intend to turn? IOW, you are turning but they think you are going straight. Then they shouldn't (in a perfect world) turn left in front of you, when if they did, that would be OK.  I'm not coming up with a scenario where someone in front of you thinks you're going straight, when you are actually turning and he can't see your signal, could cause a problem.  At least in this incident, w/o considering him getting pissed and that affecting his behavior next time.  Hmm.  Here's one:  4-way stop, we are going opposite directions on the same road, I arrive at the intersection 2 seconds before him, and I'm turning across his path, he's going straight.  He's in a Turbo 911 and is in a hurry.  I have the right of way.  But he thinks I'm going straight, so he does a rolling stop, and does a burnout right into me while I turn across his path.  I'm not thinking of another one.   It's a bigger problem, if you signal you intend to turn but don't - then that invites left-turning failure-to-yield incidents, already the biggest cause of car-bike accidents. Seems like it would have been better for Honda to ensure the turn signal shuts off, instead of making sure it's visible from the front.  Mine does, with the Kisan signal-minder.

Turn signal not visible from the rear - biggest threat I see would be getting run over while left turning waiting for traffic to clear.  But it seems to me, the signal is partly ancillary in this case - your brake light is on if you're slowing, maybe still is if you're stopped; should be somewhat obvious what you are doing.  The signal is more useful when it first comes on, so traffic behind can move over on a 4-lane.  Here's where there's a big vulnerability for bikers - the big truck right behind you, is blocking the bimbo's view of you from right behind him, while she is texting or on the phone - the truck moves over and SURPRISE there you are in front of the bimbo but she's not paying attention anyway and SPLAT.  The visibility of the signal might be irrelevant.

What if the signal is on, when it shouldn't be, threat from the rear?  In this case, I'm not thinking how that could cause an accident.  That could cause unneeded lane changes, what else?  

[N0tac0p]

really Mark, i wouldn't have thought.  the kizantech signal minder does illuminate these all the time, i'll need to look into the leds clusters?  though not sure if i will cuz then need resistors.....  or changing the dips so i don't melt something.

thanks all, for an enlighting (pardon the pun) conversation

[MarkT]

really Mark, i wouldn't have thought.  the kizantech signal minder does illuminate these all the time, i'll need to look into the leds clusters?  though not sure if i will cuz then need resistors.....  or changing the dips so i don't melt something.

thanks all, for an enlighting (pardon the pun) conversation

The Kisan signal minder function is to time out and shut off the turn signals so you don't signal you're turning when you're not if you forget to manually cancel them.  I don't know what you're talking about, "illuminate these all the time".

Wow - you need to read more carefully.  I know I explained it thoroughly but you've got it wrong.
The LED's produce LESS HEAT than tungsten - precisely WHY you would use them - to avoid the heat that is produced by incandescent bulbs SO YOU WON'T MELT SOMETHING.  Resistors are already incorporated into the LED array board - to adjust the input voltage down from 12-14 to that needed by the LED's - which varies according to their color and is specified in the LED specs.  In my 2nd circuit above - the resistors there are to dim the LED's to running light brightness if you are using the circuit to have an LED array with single circuit design - that is, 1156, simulate an 1157 circuit that supports running and signal circuits. IOW, In this design, for the running light the LED's are dimmed by the resistor(s), and the signal circuits ( brake & turn ) bypass the resistors to provide the voltage that will cause the LED's to illuminate to their full brilliance. The diode on the brake side prevents backfeed of the running circuit into the brake or turn circuits.  I use this same technique on my Highlighter (below), so the LED's have a running light with added braking brilliance.  And the run/brake LED array for sale at radiantz, linked above, compatible with 1157 sockets, works the same way - in their circuit internally, is the same resistor and diode I have provided visibly in my circuit:  an extra resistor to dim the LED's for the running light, and a bypass with a diode (to prevent backfeed) from the brake side to provide the full brilliance the LED's have, for braking.  FYI these resistors produce FAR LESS heat than the tungsten filaments of the incandescent bulbs.  Net heat produced as well as power consumed, is orders of magnitude less, for the LED vs. the incandescent soln.

Change what dips?

Now I have to stop explaining this and get some pipe work done.