TROUBLE WITH HVAC.....lines freezing....

[gordorad]

Occasionally my blower will not go on high setting, and ultimately the freon line and the coils freeze over...Both inside and on the compressor outside.  (At least it seems like the blower is not going hard enough).....

The filter is not clogged.

The outside unit is cleaned......

Any suggestions on why it is freezing up???

[HayHauler]

My very unprofessional opinion is that it might be low on freon.  That is what happened to my truck recently.  Yes we have to run or a/c in the truck during the winter. 

Hay
Jimmyt

[gordorad]

Should have stated in my post that the freon is not low, as the unit was installed two years ago......Well, it could be, but highly unlikely.  From what I know, unless there is a leak, freon will stay around a long time.. 

[Toledo Mark]

Fix the blower so it runs when it is suppose to and fill the freon.  All should be fine if you are right on the other things you mentioned.

[flcjr]

There should be a low pressure switch that should turn off the compressor when pressure drops. low pressure equals low temp. this is to stop the system from freezing up no matter what setting the blower is on. It should turn the compressor off around 24-28 degrees.

[BnB Tom]

My very unprofessional opinion is that it might be low on freon.  That is what happened to my truck recently.  Yes we have to run or a/c in the truck during the winter. 

Hay
Jimmyt

+1

[alph]

Fix the blower so it runs when it is suppose to and fill the freon.  All should be fine if you are right on the other things you mentioned.

when you had the freon filled, did they evaperate the system?  zeus661's advice is what i'd say also.

[Jack]

Most likely low on freon.  It isn't that unusual for it to leak out even with a new system.  That is what warranties are for.  By the way, if it is an R22 system, that refrigerant has gone way up since last year and you will be paying dearly for that.  410A has actually gone down some although the tech's price may not reflect it.

[gordorad]

I believe it was the older 410A.  Was that the one just replaced a few years ago?  This happened last year, and it "cured" itself. 

I don't have a manual low/high blower switch.  It just sounds like it is not on high........

As to a low pressure switch shutting it off, I must not have it or it is not functioning.  IT was frozen up outside and inside.  I turned it off for an hour or two, and got it back running.  Going to check again if it is ok.....

Thanks for the tips.

[BF]

When does this happen?  Are your setting your t-stat fairly low before going to bed and waking up to frozen coils?  Is it fairly cool outside at night when this happens?  A low outside ambient will cause exactly that. 

And never say never about leaks.  Just because the unit is only a couple years old dosn't mean that it won't leak. 

btw.....410 is a blend (22 isn't).  If your system has leaked down, do you know what part of the blend is missing?  You don't just top-off a 410 system.  You've got to find/fix the leak, take evacuate the 410 in it and replace it with a correct weight charge. 

Hope that helps.   

[Flask]

The two main reasons for freezing up refrigerant lines are-
 1) Low on Freon
 2) Not enough air going across the evaporator coil ( indoor blower coil )
    A) Dirty coil
    B) Blower motor intermittently working or not working at all

Sounds per your description that blower motor is the problem.

[BonS]

Occasionally my blower will not go on high setting, and ultimately the freon line and the coils freeze over...

Low air flow will cause freezing. It doesn't matter whether it's dirty coils, air filter or bad fan. Low freon has the same effect. Thawing out the evaporator coils (inside coils) takes a long time and if it's not thawed completely it will just happen again. It's also possible that your orifice plate or thermal expansion valve is clogged or stuck. A good technician with a set of gauges and an anemometer can figure it out easily.

[gordorad]

This happened last year.  The unit was installed two years ago.  Could it be low on Freon?  Possible.  Actually it is the r22.  I guess that is the older stuff?

What is the new price?  As to checking the amount, It needs to be tested for the pressure??

Thanks.

It was not too cold last night.  I actually turned the temperature "up"....It was around 79.  Woke up and it was still 79.  All frozen up on the outside unit....(brass parts)...and inside at the connection.  

I'm wondering if you can manually adjust the blower to high?  Relay maybe?  The inside blower is a trane unit.  Outside heatpump Haier.  The train bit the dust two years ago...

Thanks.

[gordorad]

Ok, it is running fine for about an hour, then starting again to freeze up.  First starts outside.....

Most likely low on Freon?  I think the blower is fine.  I'll be getting a tech in soon.

It is hot!!

[Robert]

Yup more than likely freon but do you have a variable speed blower? Does it come on slow and then ramp up to full speed? If not then that is only a further indication that it more than likely is freon and the original installer should be somewhat on the hook for the repair. I did mine about a year ago and the installer didn't want to install new lines so I actually ran them myself. Along with replacing the ac inside unit to air distribution plenum pipes.

[cookiedough]

If blower motor is running and not low on freon, you'd think there is a clog in the line somewhere going to the furnace from the unit thus causing the freezing by the unit?  Is your vent line for moisture clogged with gunk coming from your furnace?

[Daniel Meyer]

Compressors running too hard/much or the blower's not running enough. Could even be a capacitor on the blower motor (if bad the motor can run slow, start backwards etc. A tech can measure and check everything pretty quick.

[Kep]

HVACR technician  for 30 years and business owner here...could be any one of these "guesses" , but only actually putting gauges on the equipment and assessing air flow and such( hands on )will properly diagnose the problem.Too many variables involved to try and fix the problem  over the internet. A good technician should be able to solve the issue in less than an hour.And yes , it should not normally leak refrigerant , they are a sealed system and usually only leak in that short of time frame if the connections were not properly brazed by the installer or if a factory connection was not properly brazed.  Wish I was near you , I would be happy to look at it for free as a fellow Valk owner !

[sugerbear]

and i was told a few years ago(when i had mine replaced), to not mow the grass with the discharge toward the compressor. tech said the mower picks up twigs and small rocks, throws them at the compressor making tiny holes between the fins.
don't know if that's true or not.

[Jack]

btw.....410 is a blend (22 isn't).  If your system has leaked down, do you know what part of the blend is missing?  You don't just top-off a 410 system.  

Hope that helps.   

aziotropic mixture, not a blend.  The rest is just funny. Sorry.

[gordorad]

HVACR technician  for 30 years and business owner here...could be any one of these "guesses" , but only actually putting gauges on the equipment and assessing air flow and such( hands on )will properly diagnose the problem.Too many variables involved to try and fix the problem  over the internet. A good technician should be able to solve the issue in less than an hour.And yes , it should not normally leak refrigerant , they are a sealed system and usually only leak in that short of time frame if the connections were not properly brazed by the installer or if a factory connection was not properly brazed.  Wish I was near you , I would be happy to look at it for free as a fellow Valk owner !

Hey Kep, what part of Indy are you from?  Since I like to overload my carrier and valk, maybe I could just load up the system and bring it to you!!   

Thanks for the info.  And thanks for the verification on the freon. 

It is cooling off this week, so hopefully the guy that I had install it can come back out.  Last year I had some guy try to scam me, saying he was 99% sure it was leaking, and his price to fix the leak was just about the same as a new furnace, a coil, etc.....Found out this guy has been scamming a lot of people.  When he came to the door, he appeared to be about 22 years old.  I asked him how long he had been doing HVAC, and he replied 17 years.  I then asked him when did he start, when he was Five years old?  He replied it was a "family" business. 

Great, 17 years experience when you are 22?  Lying dick from the start!!

[Jack]

It is best to find the leak and repair it but there is a product out called Easy Seal.  It must be put in by an hvacr tech but may save you money.  My customers have been satisfied with it.

[BigBF]

HVACR technician  for 30 years and business owner here...could be any one of these "guesses" , but only actually putting gauges on the equipment and assessing air flow and such( hands on )will properly diagnose the problem.Too many variables involved to try and fix the problem  over the internet. A good technician should be able to solve the issue in less than an hour.And yes , it should not normally leak refrigerant , they are a sealed system and usually only leak in that short of time frame if the connections were not properly brazed by the installer or if a factory connection was not properly brazed.  Wish I was near you , I would be happy to look at it for free as a fellow Valk owner !

Hey Kep, I wonder if there's available for dye freon? Just like automotive dye but use dye in R22 or R410A, is there available for it? it would make lot easier to find that leak. I know I can find out onlne search but would like to hear your options.

My parent has that same problem and they just filled up freon a bit more and no more freeze up. We know there's leak somewhere. It's about 60 feet long each.

[Kep]

Big BF ..Sorry ,Just now saw your post/reply. Yellow Jacket and a few other companies make a UV dye for residential/commercial systems. Someone posted earlier about E-Z Seal (manufactured by NuCalgon).it works GREAT ! I am usually skeptical about leak sealants but tried a sample can from a vendor and have been using it ever since. Sealed leaks completely in about every system I have added it to.

[Jabba]

aziotropic mixture, not a blend.  The rest is just funny. Sorry.

 

You beat me to it.

Freezing is almost always low air flow or low refrigerant.

Jabba

[WamegoRob]

As I sit in my currently 85°F living room I thought I'd add my personal experience, which merely strengthens the "low refrigerant" argument.

My condenser is 14 years old and has a bearing that's made noise for the eight years I've owned it... but it's outside, the slight noise didn't bother me that bad and it's always worked fine, so I let it be.

The air handler in the basement, however, is 31 years old and I've had to get it recharged each summer for the last three years.
Obviously, yes, I have a leak.  The coils are worn out but clean; no air flow issues.
I had it filled this year (at the cost of about $300 again) and it felt great... for about two weeks.  It leaked quite fast this year.

Once enough refrigerant leaks out, that void is filled with plain old air.  Plain old air has a high moisture content.  That moisture gets bitch slapped by the icy cold refrigerant and is what causes the lines to turn to blocks of ice.

While I have enjoyed saving money by not running an A/C for several weeks, I prefer a 65°F living room...  I'm shopping for new equipment now.  And this sucks; I'd rather spend the money on an Interstate 

[Jess Tolbirt]

low on freon,,, the lower the freon the colder the evap.. up to a point then it quits cooling altogather..

[Jabba]

Once enough refrigerant leaks out, that void is filled with plain old air.  Plain old air has a high moisture content.  That moisture gets bitch slapped by the icy cold refrigerant and is what causes the lines to turn to blocks of ice.

That ain't how it works... There is way more science involved than that.  It relates to vapor pressure of the refrigerant.  As the refrigerant charge gets lower, the corresponding temperature gets lower as well.  There comes a point when the temp of the refrigerant, as it changes from a liquid to a gas in the evaporator gets below 32F.  whne this happens the moisture that is condensing out of the air passing over the coil, freezes.  This makes the heat transfer between the coil and the air less and the problem spirals out of control.  As you add refrigerant, the temperature of the gas after evaporation rises... in most residential systems this is generally set at about 45F.  This temperature is called the saturated suction pressure.  You CAN over charge refrigerant.  More is not necessarily better.  In fact... a little light on charge makes the whole thing work BETTER.  But at the cost of MAYBE freezing the coil when indoor or outdoor conditions change.  a TRAINED tech uses his gauges, and uses charts to determine what the pressures should be at current indoor/outdoor conditions for the moment he's setting up YOUR system.

Yes... this is what I do.  I am not a field tech... I am a HVAC designer and consulting engineer.  Well sort of... I am not a degreed engineer, but I pretend I am during the day.

Jabba

[Willow]

... in most residential systems this is generally set at about 45F.  This temperature is called the saturated suction pressure.  You CAN over charge refrigerant.  More is not necessarily better.  In fact... a little light on charge makes the whole thing work BETTER. 

Hmmm.  "Saturated suction pressure."  Mind if I use that?  I can just think of lots of places that term could be used.  I just hope today isn't going to be another one that reaches the SSP.