Religous debates are pointless

[SANDMAN5]

I was presenting evidence disputing your comment "Actually, none of them (us) KNOW what He looks like." I wasn't attacking your belief or disputing your belief. Saying you don't care doesn't change the evidence that their (your) religion believes this is the image of Jesus. 

I didn't say anything about attacking.....and I don't have a "religion", I have a
relationship with the Father....THAT'S what Jesus came to bring us..NOT religion.
The Shroud could be real..or not. Carbon dating could be accurate or a little off.
Either way it doesn't matter to me. I don't worship it and don't know anyone or
any group that does.

[SANDMAN5]

although, in one point i would have to say that having an argument about politics is more productive.  the fact being that politics effects the actual "here and now" while religion effects the "life after".  the way that one person spends my money has a direct effect on my opinion, while the suposed, non proven, "life after death" argument has NEVER been shown to be true.  although MANY people have killed, murdered and started wars over the idea......  i gues then, that gives it a bit of a reality to it's effect.
all religions hold thier beliefs in a persons death.  meaning, you will only "get your reward" after you're dead!!  now, how productive is that?  the fact is, religion was invented to CONTROL the masses.  religion is a tool of the politician.

No, Jesus said He came so that we could have LIFE more abundantly. Not just a happy afterlife.
It's obvious you've only been to an "old time religion" church. I grew up in one....really glad
I'm not there now. They can tell you how to get to Heaven, but MOST of them can't tell you
what to do until then. YMMV. BTW, "life after death" has never been DISPROVEN either.
Belief...not proof.
 

[Robert]

Jesus name tells who He is Jesus means Messiah, Christ means the anointed one. As for the shroud its a interesting artifact and scientist have found pieces of newer fabric interwoven with the older. The older dated to the time of Christ. Not really relevant just interesting. I guess no one has been watching all the stories on people who died and watched what the doctors have done from above their bodies. The other common sighting was seeing relatives and people that they knew before being brought back to their own bodies. Jesus came back from the dead and if anyone in the interest of science would like to try it I would be interested to see the results?  As for help now rather than when your dead I cant tell you all the miracles that I have witnessed and all the help about every situation that I have encountered. Even to the Holy Spirit warning me not to take a check from a guy who was going to stop payment because he didn't have the money. Unless you find out who God really is then you have nothing to talk about. I don't mean the Sunday go to church rest of the week live like hell type of Christian but anyone who really wants to find out who He really is from the heart. We don't really know what Jesus looks like the Bible tells us He was nothing unusual or common but we are made in Gods image more importantly. As for uncaring Christians I have to admit this is the hardest to swallow since I didn't realize who Jesus really was because of the hardness of peoples hearts. You can tell the ones who really know the Master by the way they act, it may not always be loving but there wont be deceit in them and the truth will live in them along with compassion.

One death experience

Man dies, comes back to life, what he saw	powered by Aeva

How is it everyone believes in the devil but not in God a former satanist explaining

Former Satanist shows everyday occultism.	powered by Aeva

[Time Worp]

I was presenting evidence disputing your comment "Actually, none of them (us) KNOW what He looks like." I wasn't attacking your belief or disputing your belief. Saying you don't care doesn't change the evidence that their (your) religion believes this is the image of Jesus.  

I didn't say anything about attacking.....and I don't have a "religion", I have a
relationship with the Father....THAT'S what Jesus came to bring us..NOT religion.
The Shroud could be real..or not. Carbon dating could be accurate or a little off.
Either way it doesn't matter to me. I don't worship it and don't know anyone or
any group that does.

I bought up the shroud to dispute the comment that no one knows what jesus looks like. Never said anything about religion, I presented it as culture not religion

[Robert]

One of the things I found interesting was that the Bible says specifically
Exo 20:4  "You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea.
We will see Jesus soon enough and many have seen Him already, I had a Muslim woman that said Jesus appeared to her it was funny because she knew who He was although she had never seen Him or even pictures of Him and didn't believe she had seen Him at first and had to ask to see Him again as a confirmation. We all know who the Lord is and when we see Him we will know Him. We identify people with how they look but with Jesus we will identify Him by His majesty and glory. We will fall at His feet everyone without exception the only difference is the ones that don't know Him now are missing the benefits of a relationship with Him.

[Time Worp]

One of the things I found interesting was that the Bible says specifically
Exo 20:4  "You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea.
We will see Jesus soon enough and many have seen Him already, I had a Muslim woman that said Jesus appeared to her it was funny because she knew who He was although she had never seen Him or even pictures of Him and didn't believe she had seen Him at first and had to ask to see Him again as a confirmation. We all know who the Lord is and when we see Him we will know Him. We identify people with how they look but with Jesus we will identify Him by His majesty and glory. We will fall at His feet everyone without exception the only difference is the ones that don't know Him now are missing the benefits of a relationship with Him.

This is if you believe in what MAN wrote thousands of years ago. If this was true man wouldn't have invented over 2800 Gods and deities over the documented history of man.  Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_gods_and_goddesses_are_there

Just because Christians waged war and by force became the largest religion in the world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades doesn't make their STORY creditable. When a Christian asks me why I don't believe Jesus could walk on water, I say for the same reason you don't believe Muhammad cracked the moon in half.

Religion (NOT CHRISTIANITY) was the first form of law, an attempt to fear people into order. I can't think of one single instance where fear brought out the best in someone. In this whole debate not one comment on the horrors God has spread onto the earth. he approves of slavery, and instructs owners to beat their slaves. (Proverbs 29:19). If you were a slave would you still worship God? Just keep talking about the good, and disregard the things not suitable for your belief. Ask yourself if you only regard the things you want and disregard the things you don't, are you following Gods word?

You ask me how I can't believe and worship God , I ask you how you can worship a fictional blood thirsty tyrant that punishes people for not getting his way?

http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/religion/satan.shtml

"It doesn't take a mathematician to add up and compare God and Satan's respective body counts."

•God takes away Adam and Eve's eternal life, thus committing the first murder, and holds their descendants responsible and visiting Adam and Eve's punishment down on their children. In today's moral standards, the sins of the father die with the father.
•God destroys all life on Earth in a great flood, except for a drunk (Noah) and his family, for failing to worship him.
•God's tenth plague upon the Israelites was the unjustified murder of all firstborn sons in Egypt, which undoubtedly included little children.
•Before sending the plagues to Egypt, God "hardened Pharaoh's heart" so that he wouldn't let the Israelites go, so he could have an excuse to visit horrible plagues upon them, like boils, killing cattle and murdering all firstborn sons. (Exodus 4:21)
•God orders the Levites to kill their "every man and his neighnor" for worshipping another god. This cost 3000 lives. (Exodus 32:27)
•God sends a plague to the Israelites, apparently feeling that mass-butchery wasn't enough of a punishment. (Exodus 32:35)
•God kills Onan for refusing to impregnate his late brother's (whom God also slew) wife and instead "spilling his seed on the ground." (Genesis 38:8-10)
•God kills the entire populations of Soddom and Gammorah (again, including women, children and infants) for practicing certain sexual techniques.
•God gives all Philistines hemorrhoids in their pubic areas. (1 Samuel 5:9)
•God kills over 50,000 people for looking at an ark. (1 Samuel 6:19)
•God kills 70,000 people because King David decided to have a census. (1 Chronicles 21:7-14)
•God approves of slavery, and instructs owners to beat their slaves. (Proverbs 29:19)
•And, finally, God makes sure that if you are guilty of even the smallest transgression, you shall suffer endlessly for all eternity, following a dramatic homecoming for Jesus, who will be extremely pissed off at everyone for putting him to death, even though it was just the Romans and even though he knew what was going to happen beforehand, and he could have easily avoided it by using his power as God to perform a miracle and prove who he was. (See the entire book of Revelation)

[Chrisj CMA]

One of the things I found interesting was that the Bible says specifically
Exo 20:4  "You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea.
We will see Jesus soon enough and many have seen Him already, I had a Muslim woman that said Jesus appeared to her it was funny because she knew who He was although she had never seen Him or even pictures of Him and didn't believe she had seen Him at first and had to ask to see Him again as a confirmation. We all know who the Lord is and when we see Him we will know Him. We identify people with how they look but with Jesus we will identify Him by His majesty and glory. We will fall at His feet everyone without exception the only difference is the ones that don't know Him now are missing the benefits of a relationship with Him.

Robert....thats not the only difference.......theres only two final destinations smoking and non smoking.......I chose Non Smoking in Dec of 1985.  Those that choose not to choose have chosen..............SMOKING......but thats thier choice to make....I was in that crowd for a long time.....didnt want to hear it, and didnt want to believe I needed to choose...........its personal thing, Im not condemning anyone

[Robert]

Chris I was right there with you
 
As for death to live is good to die is gain for when we die we will be with God. It doesn't matter if you believe your belief does not change the facts that God has set up only where you will spend the time after you die. If your right then there is nothing and nothing to worry about if I'm right then youve got something to think about either way I have won.

[Time Worp]

Chris I was right there with you
 
As for death to live is good to die is gain for when we die we will be with God. It doesn't matter if you believe your belief does not change the facts that God has set up only where you will spend the time after you die. If your right then there is nothing and nothing to worry about if I'm right then youve got something to think about either way I have won.

If you're basing your FACT on the Bible, which in early societies there was no writing as yet and people passed on these oral accounts, the earliest writing began when symbols were scratched or pressed on clay tablets. Which no longer exists. These writing have been interpreted by many civilizations.

http://www.biblica.com/bibles/faq/3/

I'm sure you have done the exercise where you put people into a circle and wispier a story into the first persons ear. Then the story go's around the circle. By the time the story gets to the last person, it is very different from the original story told.

You have to tell me your logic on how the story told through generations, eventually written on clay, and then translated by different civilizations is remotely close to that of the original.

I'll wait.....

[Chrisj CMA]

Chris I was right there with you
 
As for death to live is good to die is gain for when we die we will be with God. It doesn't matter if you believe your belief does not change the facts that God has set up only where you will spend the time after you die. If your right then there is nothing and nothing to worry about if I'm right then youve got something to think about either way I have won.

You and I are saying the same thing..........how can one of us be wrong if we are saying the same?

Choose a ralationship with God through Jesus>>>>>> spend eternity with God

Choose not to have a relationship with God through Jesus>>>>>spend eternity seperated from God

It dont get more plain than that

[SANDMAN5]

Never said anything about religion, I presented it as culture not religion

Really?

Saying you don't care doesn't change the evidence that their (your) religion believes this is the image of Jesus.

"A servant will not be corrected by words: for though he understand he will not answer."
 Proverbs 29:19 KJV
How is this an approval of slavery?

God didn't take Adam and Eve's chance at eternal life. They gave it away. If you GIVE me a
$20 bill can you charge me with STEALING it?

The rest of that is all OLD TESTAMENT!!! Really, you claim to have studied the Bible...but I don't
believe you.....unless you're not very bright...which I CAN believe. LAW-OLD TESTAMENT...
GRACE-NEW TESTAMENT. That's why I mentioned Jesus fulfilling the Law. Man could NOT do it.
If you're still looking at the OT God you're missing the entire point of the Bible. Isaiah 53 (OT) gives the best description of what took place at the Cross (NT). It's all in the first 5 books of the NT...
not that it stops there. That's where we learn what Jesus did for ALL of us. It's up to each
individual to decide whether or not they believe/accept it. It is NOT for those that put their faith
in the hands of "historical scholars and science" to tell us it's not true. BTW, you STILL haven't
answered all those questions I asked you a week ago. Something wrong?  

[Alien]

Do you guys see how no one is winning this argument but everybody thinks they're right and everyone's getting more and more inflamed?  This is exactly what I meant when I said "Religous debates are pointless".  

[SANDMAN5]

Do you guys see how no one is winning this argument but everybody thinks they're right and everyone's getting more and more inflamed?  This is exactly what I meant when I said "Religous debates are pointless".  

Speaking just for me..it's not about win or lose. How many times has it been said that everyone
decides for his/her self? What it IS about is someone telling someone else that their beliefs
are asinine because they differ from someone else's....but not offering any type of credible
proof and not being man enough to stand behind what they say. I can see your point (and actually
almost agree with it) but religious "discussion" isn't always a bad thing. And AGAIN I have to say
it's not about proof it's about belief. Some people just don't get that. For instance....if someone
says "I don't believe in God" then I don't have a problem with it. But, when someone says "God
doesn't exist" they've put their credibility on the line by stating something as FACT that they
have no way of proving. See the difference?

[tank_post142]

asshats a room full of asshats

[SANDMAN5]

asshats a room full of asshats

LOL, just remember YOU'RE in here too!!

[tank_post142]

so im an asshat.... tell me something my wife doesn't tell me daily.

[Time Worp]

Do you guys see how no one is winning this argument but everybody thinks they're right and everyone's getting more and more inflamed?  This is exactly what I meant when I said "Religous debates are pointless".  

You are right, you can't get Logic and faith to see the same path. Since the people who supposedly were around with the original accounts of the old testament never wrote them down, and the people who wrote the new testament were not around when Jesus was alive and have no solid documentation to base their story.

No one will ever know the truth about the actual accounts and will remain a myth until the end of time.

myth  (A traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon)

[Willow]

I won't involve myself in the prolonged argument ("argument", Worp) with people who have demonstrated a resistance to reason and evidence, and neither should you.

I will bother to correct a bit of your misinformation that you have repeated, Worp.

You are right, you can't get Logic and faith to see the same path.

I can.  Apparently so can you.

Since the people who supposedly were around with the original accounts of the old testament never wrote them down,  ...

I'm really not certain where you bought this line.  Only the biblical book of Genesis predates the written word.  All the others were, in fact, written at or very near the time of their occurrence.  I will concede that one could make a convincing argument that the book of Job was oral tradition long before it was written.

... and the people who wrote the new testament were not around when Jesus was alive and have no solid documentation to base their story.

The oldest fragments of New Testament writings date back to 125 AD.  These fragments, of course, are of copies which means the originals were older still.  It's well accepted that the dates of the original writings of the New Testament range from 55 AD to 96 AD.  That would, of course, make the original authors of some of the writings witnesses, as they claimed, of Jesus' earthly life.  It would place others within the same generation, or only one generation removed.

No one will ever know the truth about the actual accounts and will remain a myth until the end of time. 

Knowing the truth and convincing a determined denier of the truth are two entirely separate items.  Someone knows.  Perhaps it's you.  I don't think so, but then what I think has no bearing on what is or isn't true.  Nor, incidentally, does what you think. 

End of time is an interesting phrase to be employed by a non-believer.

myth  (A traditional story, esp. one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon)

Your syntax sucks, but your definition is precisely correct.  I derive from those two items it was a cut-and-paste.

Much over the past couple of days of this "discussion" (or collection of diatribe) that you've presented has either been "speculative research" (  ) or simply in the category of "I don't like it and so therefore it's not right."  We will all choose to believe what we choose to believe based upon what evidence it takes for us personally.  Most of us will also insist we have arrived at our beliefs through correctly applied logic, and, by definition, that would mean anyone who sees things differently than do we obviously has either misapplied logic or has chosen to disregard logic altogether.  You and I (and perhaps one or two others) have this in common.

I, for one, do not believe you are nearly as opened minded, well read, educated, or intellectually capable as you have intended to present yourself.  For the record, neither am I.

Perhaps you and I could agree to disagree and let it go at that with mutual respect.  Then again, maybe not so much.  All things are possible for one who believes.   

 

[steve 3054]

Ever notice that when ever Jesus is mentioned it is always in the " present".  That he is, and forever will be...even  by people who don't believe...

[Robert]

So worp what is it atheist agnostic homosexual? or Strong Eagle wanting to get into the fight again?? All start with the same distorted verses that really have nothing to do with the Bible and has more to do with personal pride or hate. I agree with Willow in and none of the verses you quoted were taken in context and some were out right lies. So that means you never read the Bible either so I am opting for gay since most of the atheists and agnostics have.

A great testimony from a lawyer and atheist Lee Strobel the case for Christ really really good.

The Case for the Real Jesus: lecture by Lee Strobel	powered by Aeva

[Oss]

Someone has as their signature

I would rather ride my motorcycle and think about God that sit in church and
think about riding my motorcycle

This past month I had twelve wonderful days doing that

Today I went to temple and was given an aliyah (called to the Torah) and said the prayer of one who has completed a journey (dangerous or not)

I uttered prayers for my friends with cancer, with other diseases and maladies as well as thanks for my life, my friends and family and the blessings of living in a free country where people are not actively (to my knowledge) attempting to kill me because of my religion.

I will not engage in this debate and I have respect for Robert whom I have broken bread with and has not engaged in such debate with me, also Jeff and Carl

My respect does not extend to those who would make fun of a person for believing in Jesus even though to me he is just a Jew who died thousands of years ago who tried to live his life and repair the world as we are instructed to do

Acts of charity, lovingkindness and prayer regardless of who you think is God can not be a bad thing

Killing for the name of religion to me is a bad thing

Making fun of what others believe is just gutter talk and I wont play there

Back to the pool

[fudgie]

so I am opting for gay

  ......Is all I can say cause it would have been pulled......

[Time Worp]

I, for one, do not believe you are nearly as opened minded, well read, educated, or intellectually capable as you have intended to present yourself.  For the record, neither am I.

I am not open minded at all, probably part of my issue at this point in my life.

I am well read, with that said anytime you read ancient text it is open for interpretation, just because I interpret it different then you doesn't mean I didn't read it.

I never claimed to be educated in theology (systematic and rational study of religion), I am an educated person as I hold two degrees in computer science and work with logic on a daily basis writing web applications.

My writing skills may not be exceptional and sometimes I react with emotion instead of stepping back, analyzing the situation and then making a rational response. I can see where you would question my intellect

Perhaps you and I could agree to disagree and let it go at that with mutual respect. Then again, maybe not so much.  All things are possible for one who believes.  

You and I can and will agree to disagree and let it go at that with mutual respect. Very well thought out post.

So that means you never read the Bible either so I am opting for gay since most of the atheists and agnostics have.

As for this mature, well educated, christian response, I will leave you with this thought on closing.

Patch holders don't take kindly to gays, I wouldn't be allowed in the houses I am, If I were gay.

[Willow]

You and I can and will agree to disagree and let it go at that with mutual respect.

 

I'll be pleased to discuss with you any subject of your choosing at any time.  I tend to keep my emotions at bay with the occasional exception.

[Robert]

I felt Willow did a good job in his response and felt that it was not a serious type of post or there just to annoy. What did you expect in the Christian response would be? I could explain to you why the Bible is a love story, why I believe your called or the reason all your first post was wrong but I would not do it without interest on your part. My question to you is why did you come to this particular post with the topic that Religious debates are pointless and post a pointless post? I will say this one thing logic will only take you so far everything is done on faith in something.

[Time Worp]

End of time is an interesting phrase to be employed by a non-believer.

I forgot to comment on this, Scientifically speaking the sun will eventually burn itself out, causing all life on earth to cease, maybe even Venus or Mercury by then depending on how fast the sun shrinks. So "End of time" may not be the correct term as time will continue while life won't, so I should have said "end of mankind". Good Catch.
  

[Willow]

I forgot to comment on this, Scientifically speaking the sun will eventually burn itself out, causing all life on earth to cease, maybe even Venus or Mercury by then depending on how fast the sun shrinks. So "End of time" may not be the correct term as time will continue while life won't, so I should have said "end of mankind". Good Catch.

As nearly as I can tell, scientists expect the sun to burn out in 6 - 7.5 billion years.  They expect life to become unsustainable on Earth in less than 3.5 billion years.

Personally, I don't hold that kind of optimism for the life expectancy of mankind.

With the advances in weapon technology and even the smallest amount of "evil" in the world (evil being defined as willingness and intent to destroy).  It's only a matter of time before an event occurs that will result in the end of life as we know it on this planet.  I would suggest the time required to arrive at that event is much less than 3.5 billion years.

Does that make the expected remaining life of the sun a non-factor?    

[Time Worp]

As nearly as I can tell, scientists expect the sun to burn out in 6 - 7.5 billion years.  They expect life to become unsustainable on Earth in less than 3.5 billion years.

Personally, I don't hold that kind of optimism for the life expectancy of mankind.

With the advances in weapon technology and even the smallest amount of "evil" in the world (evil being defined as willingness and intent to destroy).  It's only a matter of time before an event occurs that will result in the end of life as we know it on this planet.  I would suggest the time required to arrive at that event is much less than 3.5 billion years.

Does that make the expected remaining life of the sun a non-factor?    

I don't think anything short of the Gulf of Mexico impact would cause another extinction. As this was only 65 million years ago. I think the odds of another event like this would be possible in the next 3.5 billion years. History has shown that life (in any form) has resiliency. While man may go extinct with the next catastrophic event (man made or natural), the next generation of life will emerge just like we did. Thus making the expected remaining life of the sun a non-factor to man but not to some type of life form.