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Chrisj CMA
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« on: July 20, 2012, 06:26:41 AM » |
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Jabba
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VRCCDS0197
Greenwood Indiana
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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2012, 06:29:24 AM » |
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Just talked about this at the office today...
If there had been just one, good gun toter there... it would have still happened... but I'd wager it'd have been a lot less deaths.
Jabba
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DIGGER
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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2012, 06:42:07 AM » |
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Just talked about this at the office today...
If there had been just one, good gun toter there... it would have still happened... but I'd wager it'd have been a lot less deaths.
Jabba
Jabba, the sad part is most high power pistol rounds will go through a body and in a really high concentration of people the bullet would most likely hit someone else.......then the conceal carry person is in just as much trouble as the shooter. |
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Chrisj CMA
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2012, 07:01:16 AM » |
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Just talked about this at the office today...
If there had been just one, good gun toter there... it would have still happened... but I'd wager it'd have been a lot less deaths.
Jabba
Jabba, the sad part is most high power pistol rounds will go through a body and in a really high concentration of people the bullet would most likely hit someone else.......then the conceal carry person is in just as much trouble as the shooter. Thats what I took Jabba to mean "good gun toter" One would have to have the perfect shot, the perfect angle but it can happen especially as everyone was running away from the shooter there had to be that moment where it was clear behind him.....or not, but how sad to have a shot and have no gun |
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Serk
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2012, 07:07:36 AM » |
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A good carry pistol would have hollow points, which are much less likely to go through the bad guy and hit someone else, however, the real issue would be:
Dark theater
Action sequence (Lots of sounds of explosions and guns from the movie itself)
Smoke and/or tear gas
Mass confusion of 100's of people in a confined space
(Unknown to someone in the theater, but supposedly the bad guy was wearing body armor)
Bad guy was supposedly wearing some sort of black outfit, in a theater filled with people dressed like BatMan (I.E. All in black)
I was trying to mentally place myself into that situation with my weapon on me and figure out what I would do. Yes, if the opportunity presented itself to get a clean shot and stop it I think I would have tried, but there are a LOT of circumstances against being able to do so.
My biggest fear, this is just the rallying cry the gun grabbers have been lusting over to initiate a new round of gun grabbing...
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Never ask a geek 'Why?',just nod your head and slowly back away...  IBA# 22107 VRCC# 7976 VRCCDS# 226 1998 Valkyrie Standard 2008 Gold Wing Taxation is theft. μολὼν λαβέ |
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cookiedough
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2012, 07:11:13 AM » |
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I think the news said he was wearing a bullet proof vest (could be wrong?) so you'd have to hit him in the head up close unless you are a great shot longer distances and can shoot in almost darkness (unless you have a red dot lazer sight). I think with people running all over the place, even a good marksmen would more than likely hit an innocent victim.
Right down the road from the colombine shooting in Colorado also, so sad.
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Chrisj CMA
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2012, 07:15:59 AM » |
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I agree, may not have been possible, but there is always that magic moment
I agree....exactly Serk, the gun grabbers are going to eat this up........thats why it would have been better all around if a responsible gun owner ended it earlier than it ended. Then it would be clear that criminals will always have guns, but lawful gun owners have a rightful place in protecting themselves and others around them.
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2012, 07:16:08 AM » |
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Just another reason I avoid crowds and crowded places.
Humans suck (until proved otherwise).
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BigAl
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2012, 08:11:10 AM » |
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Crawl on belly till you can stick the gun in his guts or head.
You know he is dead.
4" blade would suffice in a dark theatre.THat is what I carry in my truck, when I am not allowed to carry a firearm.
Probably had a sign out front said no weapons allowed.
That makes it a free fire zone, shooting gallery.
Everyone who does not believe in the constitution and the second amendment should write that on the side of their home
so as to not have one of us who does believe be bothered by intruders.
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Serk
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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2012, 08:38:07 AM » |
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Probably had a sign out front said no weapons allowed.
That makes it a free fire zone, shooting gallery.
That was my first thought so I did a little poking, looks like it was a Cinemark theater. Here in Texas at least Cinemarks are NOT posted no guns allowed (AMC are. Wanna guess which chain I favor on the rare occasion I'm going to a movie?) Don't know if Cinemarks allow concealed carry in Colorado or not though, of course... |
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Never ask a geek 'Why?',just nod your head and slowly back away... IBA# 22107 VRCC# 7976 VRCCDS# 226 1998 Valkyrie Standard 2008 Gold Wing Taxation is theft. μολὼν λαβέ |
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Serk
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2012, 08:47:06 AM » |
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Never ask a geek 'Why?',just nod your head and slowly back away... IBA# 22107 VRCC# 7976 VRCCDS# 226 1998 Valkyrie Standard 2008 Gold Wing Taxation is theft. μολὼν λαβέ |
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DIGGER
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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2012, 08:51:20 AM » |
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when at the movie my Wife and I are both usually conceal carry......only because we only go at night. At night I nearly always carry.
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Chrisj CMA
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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2012, 08:57:17 AM » |
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Of course the answer isint gun control......its punishing criminals.........we need the opposite of the reasonable doubt law. The no freeking doubt law.......someone is caught "red handed" after all valuable intel is exctracted the person is just shot dead in town square quick fast and in a hurry.......what a message, no insanity defense, no bad mommy excuses, just permanent insurance and a clear message that it aint worth it......Goes for big time drug dealers, rapists, kidnappers and of course muderers........line em up and save the taxpayer money....bet the crap stops (or is significantly reduced) after a short time of that type of punishment Oh and the punishment for lying to make someone appear guilty is.....YOU GUESSED IT.....quick fast and in a hurry |
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Super Santa
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Posts: 1907
VRCC #27029
Houston, Texas
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2012, 09:16:50 AM » |
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Public execution, televised.
OK, flame suit on.
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bigguy
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VRCC# 30728
Texarkana, TX
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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2012, 09:44:43 AM » |
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Like a lot of you guys, I've wondered what I'd have done if I'd been there and carrying. Probably depends on too many factors I don't have data on. One is whether or not I was there by myself. You're going to draw fire unless you take him out fast. That's not likely if he's wearing armor. If I was by myself, had a decent shot, and thought I could find cover, I'm pretty sure I open up on him. If my wife, kids, or grand kids were there, I'd just hunker down until he started shooting my direction.
Most of the talk about somebody carrying assumes only a single concealed carry person on scene. And that is unfortunately likely. But even with body armor, if 15 to 20 people started sending lead his direction I'd bet his agenda would change from killing people to getting the out with his own skin. Even if nobody had anything larger than 95 grain .380, I'll bet 90 hits (15 people with 6 in the mag.) would change his philosophy some.
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Ice
Member
Posts: 1223
Whatever it is, it's better in the wind.
On a road less traveled.
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2012, 10:03:42 AM » |
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As a fomer Police Officer, I hate to say a good old citizen carrying a concealed weapon and trying to re-create the 71 YOA Florida man may have just gotten the good citizen killed. PD was on scene already working crowd control, and as an officer, if I come into a place where weapons are being fired I do not know good from bad and just as easy could shoot the good Samaritan, so I do not think in this instance it would have been a wise idea to be the concealed carry person shooting at the bad guy.
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Jess Tolbirt
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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2012, 10:15:51 AM » |
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As a fomer Police Officer, I hate to say a good old citizen carrying a concealed weapon and trying to re-create the 71 YOA Florida man may have just gotten the good citizen killed. PD was on scene already working crowd control, and as an officer, if I come into a place where weapons are being fired I do not know good from bad and just as easy could shoot the good Samaritan, so I do not think in this instance it would have been a wise idea to be the concealed carry person shooting at the bad guy.
the shooting is most always over before the police arrives,,the good guy will lay down his weapon and show his hands and tell the police where his gun is and to secure it..i only see police as the people who clean up the mess.. |
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Valkyrie member # 23084
Started out on old forum on day one but lost my member number.
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cookiedough
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2012, 10:21:23 AM » |
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Good point Ice, police are always on the side of caution.
At night, most movie theaters are too crowded with people that getting a good shot off would be very hard and if you hit someone innocent, you could be going to jail.
I'm glad WI just became concealed carry and looking more and more into gettting a pistol even if it is a .22 caliber, it will slow someone down enough to hopefully get away if the need arises. Idiots and crazies are everywhere whether driving or just walking around in public getting worse and worse.
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Ice
Member
Posts: 1223
Whatever it is, it's better in the wind.
On a road less traveled.
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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2012, 10:25:53 AM » |
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As a fomer Police Officer, I hate to say a good old citizen carrying a concealed weapon and trying to re-create the 71 YOA Florida man may have just gotten the good citizen killed. PD was on scene already working crowd control, and as an officer, if I come into a place where weapons are being fired I do not know good from bad and just as easy could shoot the good Samaritan, so I do not think in this instance it would have been a wise idea to be the concealed carry person shooting at the bad guy.
the shooting is most always over before the police arrives,,the good guy will lay down his weapon and show his hands and tell the police where his gun is and to secure it..i only see police as the people who clean up the mess.. That may be the case in your opinion, that as you say the PD is only there to clean the mess, but the sad truth is that all the officer's I know do not have a crystal ball to forsee the next wave of crime, so we respond as we can. I would hope that John Q. Citizen would have enough sense to lay down his weapon after the frey, but as from experience I can say that adrenaline as well as the time laps may prevent him from doing that unless he is very well trained, which sad to say most are not. And as in this case PD was on scene and very easily could have came in during the shoot out. So my point stands that you may just have gotten yourself dead. |
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Varmintmist
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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2012, 11:41:38 AM » |
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And as in this case PD was on scene and very easily could have came in during the shoot out. But they didnt, and by doing nothing a lot of people did get dead. |
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However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
Churchill
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Romeo
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J.A.B.O.A.
Romeo, Michigan
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« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2012, 11:51:29 AM » |
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Ok, just heard on the news the perp had tactical cothing on, a helmet, protective pants, vest, gloves , groin protector, WTF, did anyone notice this beforehand. Can someone please tell me how he got in, through doors that don't open from outside? Lotsa questions to be answered here. Some of the witnesses said they noticed his clothing, and thought nothing of it. Really?
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Serk
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« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2012, 11:54:12 AM » |
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Ok, just heard on the news the perp had tactical cothing on, a helmet, protective pants, vest, gloves , groin protector, WTF, did anyone notice this beforehand. Can someone please tell me how he got in, through doors that don't open from outside? Lotsa questions to be answered here. Some of the witnesses said they noticed his clothing, and thought nothing of it. Really?
Keeping in mind all info is still in flux this early on, but: He got in by kicking in an exit door. And there were a LOT of people wearing funny clothes (Homemade Batman outfits) to the movie, so yeah, someone in tactical gear wouldn't raise a lot of eyebrows in a situation like that. |
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Never ask a geek 'Why?',just nod your head and slowly back away... IBA# 22107 VRCC# 7976 VRCCDS# 226 1998 Valkyrie Standard 2008 Gold Wing Taxation is theft. μολὼν λαβέ |
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Xtracho
Member
Posts: 1303
The Bosses
Florida's Emerald Coast
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« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2012, 12:06:42 PM » |
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Hindsight is 20/20 always. Sad fact is this is was a massacre pure and simple. The aftermath being that the gun control nutcases will be all over this as if you had kicked over an ant hill.
Would a citizen with a CCP have been able to do something? Hard to really say in that dark, closed in space filled with innocent people. But at the very least had there been an opening, an opportunity, the only person in the theater that COULD have done something would have surely been the carrier of the CCP.
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Mark
"To live you must be willing to die" - Amir Vahedi
My father gets smarter each day he is gone.
In the stable:
'84 GW Aspencade
'47 Indian Chief
'98 Valkyrie
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Psychotic Bovine
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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2012, 12:08:15 PM » |
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Unfortunately, the anti-gunners will not let any tragedy go unexploited. Someone used to call this "dancing in the blood of the victims".
In the incident of the good guy thwarting the bad guys in Ocala, CNN was 1 day behind some other, less liberal, media outlets in reporting it.
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"I aim to misbehave."
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Spirited-6
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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2012, 12:36:36 PM » |
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when at the movie my Wife and I are both usually conceal carry......only because we only go at night. At night I nearly always carry.
Digger, you need to omit "NEARLY ALWAYS CARRY" All it takes is one time . I carry 24/7 and pray that I`ll never need to pull my weapon.  |
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Spirited-6
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BigAl
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« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2012, 01:00:27 PM » |
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Well the Mayor of New York is really a boon to man kind now isn't he, He cut out all x-large softdrinks, that will be a big help. Now he wants gun control as he hides behind 5 body guards all packing heat. |
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Detn8er
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« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2012, 02:25:53 PM » |
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As a fomer Police Officer, I hate to say a good old citizen carrying a concealed weapon and trying to re-create the 71 YOA Florida man may have just gotten the good citizen killed. PD was on scene already working crowd control, and as an officer, if I come into a place where weapons are being fired I do not know good from bad and just as easy could shoot the good Samaritan, so I do not think in this instance it would have been a wise idea to be the concealed carry person shooting at the bad guy.
the shooting is most always over before the police arrives,,the good guy will lay down his weapon and show his hands and tell the police where his gun is and to secure it..i only see police as the people who clean up the mess.. That may be the case in your opinion, that as you say the PD is only there to clean the mess, but the sad truth is that all the officer's I know do not have a crystal ball to forsee the next wave of crime, so we respond as we can. I would hope that John Q. Citizen would have enough sense to lay down his weapon after the frey, but as from experience I can say that adrenaline as well as the time laps may prevent him from doing that unless he is very well trained, which sad to say most are not. And as in this case PD was on scene and very easily could have came in during the shoot out. So my point stands that you may just have gotten yourself dead. If the popo's were so quick to respond then why is this sack of crap still sucking up good air??? He should have NEVER been taken alive. Now he is going to cost multiple thousands maybe even millions of tax payer dollars. |
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musclehead
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« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2012, 02:32:16 PM » |
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Ok, just heard on the news the perp had tactical cothing on, a helmet, protective pants, vest, gloves , groin protector, WTF, did anyone notice this beforehand. Can someone please tell me how he got in, through doors that don't open from outside? Lotsa questions to be answered here. Some of the witnesses said they noticed his clothing, and thought nothing of it. Really?
Keeping in mind all info is still in flux this early on, but: He got in by kicking in an exit door. And there were a LOT of people wearing funny clothes (Homemade Batman outfits) to the movie, so yeah, someone in tactical gear wouldn't raise a lot of eyebrows in a situation like that. they said he bought a ticket, watched a few minutes, blocked open a exit door, went back out the front doors and gathered his gear then re-entered through the exit door. |
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'in the tunnels uptown, the Rats own dream guns him down. the shots echo down them hallways in the night' - the Boss
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fudgie
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Better to be judged by 12, then carried by 6.
Huntington Indiana
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« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2012, 03:17:18 PM » |
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We always carry into a theater. Hell we carry every where tho. To me I think I could live with hitting a citizen before hitting the bad guy. I def am not gonna set there while he shoots 15 people while I am carring and wondering if I'm next. Me hitting one person could save the lives of 14 more people. It would be tough to live with but then again you should triage a mass casualty incident sometime.  |
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 Now you're in the world of the wolves... And we welcome all you sheep... VRCC-#7196 VRCCDS-#0175 DTR PGR |
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Chillerman
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« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2012, 03:38:27 PM » |
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Living here in Colorado, things like this have happened all too frequently. I am shocked and saddened by what happened at that theater last night. This is part of the reason I decided to get my concealed carry permit. I haven't been a full time carrier but I may now. This administration is going to take away everything I believe in, but they are going to have to take me down fighting.
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The problem with Socialists is they eventually run out of other people's money to spend!
Some people are too stupid to realize how ignorant they are.
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musclehead
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« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2012, 04:23:23 PM » |
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sounds like the situation would not have benefitted by a righteous person with a ccw.  what is wrong with people? lots........ |
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'in the tunnels uptown, the Rats own dream guns him down. the shots echo down them hallways in the night' - the Boss
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2012, 06:37:34 PM » |
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I believe the exit door he blocked open was out back, where he parked his vehicle. So he blocks the door open (they may have to be alarmed), walks out and around, and had all the time in the world to suit up, muster his cowardly demented courage, and walk back in and shoot as many as possible. I may have read one man tried to keep him out (holding door) but was afraid he'd get shot thru the door, so ran and made it out, many didn't.
About the only way I see to have taken this guy would to have been up front, gone down and played dead, then when he moved on, pop up and run up behind him and do a contact shot on the back of his head (low to high, so a thru and thru doesn't hit anyone). Even thou he wore all the gear, I doubt he really expected to get away, or even live. Too bad he did. Was he a short fuse others knew but did nothing about..... like the whack who shot Giffords?
The original insanity defense was only good for someone so deranged they did not know what they where doing, at all. That has been expanded too far in most jurisdictions. I say try them and execute the insane, they are not an endangered species. I don't care if it's not civilized, it's effective.......... and not 15-20 years after the conviction. All death cases should go to the head of the line in all appeals, all the way thru, every other case on the docket waits. If he misses an appeal deadline by one day, ride the needle the next. Fast track.
Edit: After conviction, the fact and severity of a man's insanity should certainly be considered by a judge or jury in deciding the proper sentence, and may be evidence in mitigation of a death penalty, but the death penalty should not be automatically off the table for insanity as it is now defined.
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« Last Edit: July 20, 2012, 07:30:25 PM by Jess from VA »
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musclehead
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« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2012, 07:37:17 PM » |
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I believe the exit door he blocked open was out back, where he parked his vehicle. So he blocks the door open (they may have to be alarmed), walks out and around, and had all the time in the world to suit up, muster his cowardly demented courage, and walk back in and shoot as many as possible. I may have read one man tried to keep him out (holding door) but was afraid he'd get shot thru the door, so ran and made it out, many didn't.
About the only way I see to have taken this guy would to have been up front, gone down and played dead, then when he moved on, pop up and run up behind him and do a contact shot on the back of his head (low to high, so a thru and thru doesn't hit anyone). Even thou he wore all the gear, I doubt he really expected to get away, or even live. Too bad he did. Was he a short fuse others knew but did nothing about..... like the whack who shot Giffords?
The original insanity defense was only good for someone so deranged they did not know what they where doing, at all. That has been expanded too far in most jurisdictions. I say try them and execute the insane, they are not an endangered species. I don't care if it's not civilized, it's effective.......... and not 15-20 years after the conviction. All death cases should go to the head of the line in all appeals, all the way thru, every other case on the docket waits. If he misses an appeal deadline by one day, ride the needle the next. Fast track.
Edit: After conviction, the fact and severity of a man's insanity should certainly be considered by a judge or jury in deciding the proper sentence, and may be evidence in mitigation of a death penalty, but the death penalty should not be automatically off the table for insanity as it is now defined.
premeditated for sure, the insanity defense has NEVER worked for serial killers that had their "tool kit" with them at the time of arrest. |
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'in the tunnels uptown, the Rats own dream guns him down. the shots echo down them hallways in the night' - the Boss
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hubcapsc
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Posts: 16824
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2012, 03:36:45 AM » |
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A good carry pistol would have hollow points, which are much less likely to go through the bad guy and hit someone else, however, the real issue would be:
...
(Unknown to someone in the theater, but supposedly the bad guy was wearing body armor)
...
That's what I was thinking (about the hollow points)... and wouldn't getting shot be...
a big distraction... for someone with armor, even if it wouldn't make a big hole in him...?
I don't guess anyone knows exactly what they'd do in a situation like that, unless
they've been in situations like that...
-Mike
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2012, 07:00:06 AM » |
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premeditated for sure, the insanity defense has NEVER worked for serial killers that had their "tool kit" with them at the time of arrest.
Except he's not a serial killer, he's a mass murderer.
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TKM
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« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2012, 08:39:46 AM » |
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I heard one of the young ladies killed in Colorado,as a innocent bystander escaped injury at a shooting in Toronto when gang members decided to shoot it out at the Eaton centre . Violence and hate is all about us , doesn't matter when, where or what country
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78 Gl 1000
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musclehead
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« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2012, 09:38:59 AM » |
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premeditated for sure, the insanity defense has NEVER worked for serial killers that had their "tool kit" with them at the time of arrest.
Except he's not a serial killer, he's a mass murderer.
that is a valid point sir, I stand corrected. |
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'in the tunnels uptown, the Rats own dream guns him down. the shots echo down them hallways in the night' - the Boss
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