I Put a Rear Tire on and

[BIG--T]

Hope  I didn't mess up too bad.  I got in too big of a hurry and torqued in reverse! Duh!  

I torqued the shaft bolts first- then the axle nut!! I have read the complete reverse here and it just dawned on me!! !@#$%!!      

I rode her 20 miles and the wheel/shaft sounds and feels good. I understand that's for alignment- smooth as silk with no hands!  

Think I'll be alright?

Tony

[Valkpilot]

Hope  I didn't mess up too bad.  I got in too big of a hurry and torqued in reverse! Duh!  

I torqued the axle nut first and then the 4 shaft bolts!! I have read the complete reverse here and it just dawned on me!! !@#$%!!      

I rode her 20 miles and the wheel/shaft sounds and feels good. I understand that's for alignment- smooth as silk with no hands!  

Think I'll be alright?

Tony

You did it incorrectly.  You are supposed to torque the axle with the four pumpkin-to-swingarm nuts loose, then tighten those four nuts.

The mis-alignment that is possible if you tighten the swingarm nuts first is probably too subtle for you to notice when rolling.     Mis-alignment might only be a matter of a few degrees, but it can cause very fast wear where the drive splines in the cup contact the driven splines of the flange.

The idea is that the spacers, bearing faces, and splines will automatically align exacly parallel to the axle and perpendicular to each other when you torque the axle before tightening the swingarm nuts.  This also forms a strong column side-to-side that avoids wear of the wheel and its components due to excessive play.

[Bone]

From Shoptalk

28.  Install the axle nut (27mm or 1 1/16”) and torque to 81 ft.lb. (110Nm)
29.  Torque the 4 final drive nuts to 47 ft.lb. (64Nm)

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

You did it right accirding to what you described 

[BIG--T]

Thanks everyone, but I even wrote it up backwards!!   Today just ain't my day! I just corrected what I wrote and just maybe .....it was aligned good since it is so smooth and quite.  

[9Ball]

If there is any confusion, just loosen things up and do it over in the right sequence....a 5 minute job at best.  This will give you peace of mind for the next 10,000 miles.

[KY,Dave (AKA Misunderstood)]

Thanks everyone, but I even wrote it up backwards!!  Today just ain't my day! I just corrected it and just maybe .....it was aligned good since it is so smooth and quite.   

I would put it up and loosen the 4 bolts and axle and do it properly JUDST TO BE CERTAIN. May feel good and still cause damage that won't be seen till later. A simple thing to do to be sure.

[Chrisj CMA]

If you installed the final drive and then torqued the 4 final drive bolts to 47ft lbs blindly without having the axle torqued down.  There is NO possible way you have a correct wheel to final drive alignment. 

If you do not take it down, inspect and re assemble its almost guaranteed you will have a toasted spline set by the time you need another tire...

You decide what you should do...I would take it down and have a look see and then do it the right way

[Valkpilot]

Thanks everyone, but I even wrote it up backwards!!   Today just ain't my day! I just corrected what I wrote and just maybe .....it was aligned good since it is so smooth and quite.  

Since you modified your post, I had to modify mine, otherwise my response would have been incorrect too!

I'm with the others on this: Loosen everything up and re-torque in the correct order.

[Oklahoma_Valk]

Because thanks to me, we've all seen what chewed up splines look like. They look like $$$$.
 

[BIG--T]

Thanks everyone for all your help! Man today has been a backwards day since I got up...ain't nothing been going right today and something told me to do the tire Monday and I shoulda listened! Note to self: Self, next time when something tells ya...listen dummy!!     I wanted to ride bad tomorrow and just got in too much of a dang hurry!

I will give it a go in the morning.

Thanks again!

Tony 

[Ricky-D]

No need to loosen the axle nut.

Unweight the tire and loosen the shaft nuts.

Give the pumpkin a whack or two with a rubber mallet to help it seek it's equilibrium.

And retorque the nuts.

***

[Chrisj CMA]

No need to loosen the axle nut.

Unweight the tire and loosen the shaft nuts.

Give the pumpkin a whack or two with a rubber mallet to help it seek it's equilibrium.

And retorque the nuts.

***

I must be missing that page in my Honda Book........nothing I can see about whacking the final drive.  I think it would be better just to do it right.

[salty1]

Good thing you asked. Take your time and assemble it correctly. +1 on Chris's comments.

[Regis]

As a 15 yr Valk owner , this topic puzzles me .I currently have 95K + miles on my bike , and have always done my own maint.  I have never followed this procedure on aligning the rear diff/axle . mainly because I wasn't aware that the procedure existed . I've always greased my splines with every rear tear down .I replaced the pinion cup and shaft about 16K miles ago .My wheel splines have always looked fine , and I'm confident they will be when I replace my dampers in the spring . Was there a rash of valk owners that had this happen that brought about this conclusion ? I've ridden darkside for 43K miles and havent done the double row bearing mod either . I'm not sure I am convinced of this issue , but I'm not saying anyone is wrong either . I am a mechanic by trade not hobby , I geuss I cant see the forest for the trees .

[Chrisj CMA]

As a 15 yr Valk owner , this topic puzzles me .I currently have 95K + miles on my bike , and have always done my own maint.  I have never followed this procedure on aligning the rear diff/axle . mainly because I wasn't aware that the procedure existed . I've always greased my splines with every rear tear down .I replaced the pinion cup and shaft about 16K miles ago .My wheel splines have always looked fine , and I'm confident they will be when I replace my dampers in the spring . Was there a rash of valk owners that had this happen that brought about this conclusion ? I've ridden darkside for 43K miles and havent done the double row bearing mod either . I'm not sure I am convinced of this issue , but I'm not saying anyone is wrong either . I am a mechanic by trade not hobby , I geuss I cant see the forest for the trees .

This is not some "made up" procedure created because somone tore up some splines.  Its right out of the Honda Book.  Its how the parts were designed to be assembled Page 14-9.

Just seems strange that a mechanic by trade wouldnt do it by the book, or even know its in there.  Im glad you havent had a problem with it.  Maybe its because you found your own sequence that works...others have not been so lucky.  Im not a mechanic by trade so I suppose the book is more important to me.  I try to do important stuff by the book.

[Regis]

no , let me set it straight , I'm a heavy equipment Mechanic by trade . I have a haynes manual  thats all, no honda manual . .I've worked on all major brands of equipment in the last 22 yrs . and just because the Caterpillar manual says do it this way doesnt mean its always right, or the Only way  .I would say this holds true for about anything . so, I think that answers my own question .

[Ricky-D]

Regis, you're not wrong!  I'm more inclined to feel the same as you regarding this particular subject.

Myself, I do it the way I like best and feel most comfortable with.

There are a few posters that take issue with most all I say, just to try and stir things up without contributing an iota to the conversation.

***

[Regis]

well ,I'm open to anything that is a better procedure so I will follow this guide line next time , it can't hurt to try a better way .I was just curious to see if there was a failure due to someones personal experience on the subject, not just preaching the gospel of the printed word . We wouldnt have "custom" anything or "one-off" anything if people followed the book page for page / word for word .

[BIG--T]

Well, I've built hot rods in my day and have been a shade tree mechanic, which now is about a thing of the past with these newer vehicles unless you've got thousands to buy the high tech diagnostic machines and access to codes which some independant mechanics are having trouble to aquire. About all I can do is change my oil, plugs, and basic maintenence! 

 I did what the book said but really don't fully understand the logic about the alignment, or torqueing the shock bolts differently- like 20 ft.lbs on the top and 2 different on the bottom.

I'm sure you can't go wrong following the Honda manual by letter, but agree with Ricky-D and Regis to a point.

A perfect example is the Honda manual sez drop your exhaust and take off the rear portion of your fender when it's SO much easier to drop the shocks and jack her to the moon!  Doing it their way would almost make me want a harley!!    .....I said almost! 

[Regis]

thats a good example of what I'm talking about ...a better way but not a bad way .What I can't understand , theoretically, is how you can misalign machined mated surfaces , with the bearings being straight, held in place by the axle spacer , roller bearings , not tapered with no preload . Especially when you have a drive flange that is cushioned by rubber dampers .Any tolerances that are out of a designated spec should be taken up by the rubber drive flange play during rotation . I would think you would see premature damper failure before you would see spline  failure . again , I see no "boogeyman " !

[Regis]

Maybe Jabba will chime in , I understand he has done alot of these rear end breakdowns , maybe he can shed some light . I just don't get it .

[BIG--T]

thats a good example of what I'm talking about ...a better way but not a bad way .What I can't understand , theoretically, is how you can misalign machined mated surfaces , with the bearings being straight, held in place by the axle spacer , roller bearings , not tapered with no preload . Especially when you have a drive flange that is cushioned by rubber dampers .Any tolerances that are out of a designated spec should be taken up by the rubber drive flange play during rotation . I would think you would see premature damper failure before you would see bearing failure . again , I see no "boogeyman " !

Now that's exactly what I want to know!! Maybe someone can explain it !   

[Rio Wil]

Its not the bearings at risk here, its the splines in the final drive and drive flange. It appears that if the final drive is tilted a bit down (or up) from a parallel  plane with the axle, it causes the splines to squirm as the wheel rotates and destroys the splines, even tho they are lubed.  Then as the lube is lost past the o rings due to the squirm, it accelerates the wear and red rust appears and acts line grinding compound.....a slippery downward slope.   My first one began to eat its self at about 26k miles between lube jobs...before I found out about the need to perform the maintenance at about 10-15K.

[Regis]

BUT, was it from misalignment or lack of lubrication ? 26K is alot of miles for no lube ! I'm skeptical .I didnt say bearing failure .....

[Chrisj CMA]

OK, heres my best understanding.  The Flange is not part of the torqued line from the head of the axle to the outside face of the left side of the swing arm.


When you torque the axle with the 4 pumpkin bolts loose the pumkin is pulled into position as the metal parts from the head of the axle down mate face to face to face as the axle nut is tightened everything lines itself up.  If the Final drive is secured in place before that then its position relative to the axle is arbitrary and may or may not be in the margin of error to prevent premature wear.

I have seen the spline teeth wear fairly fast (life of one tire) and I have seen the flange "chew" off the corner of the hub of the wheel (right side)

Now there are other factors that can excelerate wear: lack of lubrication, worn dampeners, missing parts (o-rings, thrust washer) But alignment of the splines is a major component along with the rest.  Yes the flange has some wiggle room, but if its the teeth of the splines pushing it side to side within that wiggle room, that cant be good for the teeth.  

As someone just said.....one of these components going bad can cause another to change and another until there is a chain reaction of devistation.  You start that flange rotating out of round because the pumkin isint square and before you know it the dampeners are wallowed out and then the flange has more play so lubrication is lost......

This is a high risk system here...lots of torque and heavy weight.  Why not take every precaution to get it right

[Rio Wil]

BUT, was it from misalignment or lack of lubrication ? 26K is alot of miles for no lube ! I'm skeptical .I didnt say bearing failure .....

so whose comment is this:

thats a good example of what I'm talking about ...a better way but not a bad way .What I can't understand , theoretically, is how you can misalign machined mated surfaces , with the bearings being straight, held in place by the axle spacer , roller bearings , not tapered with no preload . Especially when you have a drive flange that is cushioned by rubber dampers .Any tolerances that are out of a designated spec should be taken up by the rubber drive flange play during rotation . I would think you would see premature damper failure before you would see bearing failure . again , I see no "boogeyman " !

[Regis]

rio will - sorry i had editerd my original post about 10 seconds after I posted it, because i initially said bearing but after reading noticed my mistake and changed it to spline , I'm not sure how you got the first version , because mine says splines .no big deal , does my post show splines or bearing on your page ?  Hell , I thought I caught the mistake before anyone even had time to read it . hahaha

[Ricky-D]

Personally, I don't buy into all the conjecture about the nut tightening and flange wear supposition. I do not think there is any connection because:

When you torque the axle nut properly, everything in the line, around the centerline will snug up properly, being forced together from the tension in the axle. Drive flange not withstanding.

If you tighten the axle properly and the four nuts that connect the pumpkin to the swingarm have not been messed with, well I say "you're Ok".

The only result of having the pumpkin misaligned with the swingarm and then tightening the axle nut will result in the swingarm assembly seeing an unusual twisting force since the plane of the swingarm is in conflict with the plane of the axle and by tightening the axle is trying to draw both planes into a mutual agreement.

I don't see any unusual forces regarding the drive flange as long as the axle is not flexing, which when properly torqued should not be the condition.

The thrust washer is necessary to keep the drive flange from eating up the wheel at the bearing pocket.

Attempting to find some mechanical misalignment reason for the spline wear and failure is to deny the need for good maintenance of the spline area with lubricant being the most important item.

I do agree however that if the pumpkin is removed from the swingarm, that the proper assembly would and should be evidently clear to tighten the axle first and then the four nuts.

***

[Regis]

ok , heres a good question ,whenever a specific grade bolt is torqued to a set spec , you must consider thread stretch . At what point do you have to change the lock nut or the axle ? 

[Chrisj CMA]

ok , heres a good question ,whenever a specific grade bolt is torqued to a set spec , you must consider thread stretch . At what point do you have to change the lock nut or the axle ? 

When one breaks......

81 ft lbs is 81 ft lbs no matter how long the axle is......I think were talking microns here anyway

[RP#62]

ok , heres a good question ,whenever a specific grade bolt is torqued to a set spec , you must consider thread stretch . At what point do you have to change the lock nut or the axle ? 

It depends on the application, i.e. how close the torque being specified is to the bolt's elastic limits.  Many times, the torque needed for proper clamp-up is nowhere close to the bolt's elastic limit.  Sometimes its really close, but in those cases, the mfg will usually indicate that the bolt is for one-time use only.  On the axle bolts, I don't think we're anywhere close.  I've been using the same set since 1998 with no problems.   One of the first signs is that the nut becomes difficult to remove because the thread pitch on the bolt changes slightly because of the stretch.
-RP

[Chrisj CMA]

Personally, I don't buy into all the conjecture about the nut tightening and flange wear supposition. I do not think there is any connection because:

"Conjecture?" Well RickyD.....Im not going to get into a drawn out argument with you, but...the Honda book says to loosen them bolts to ease axle insertion and insure driven flange alignment.  Saying thats just wrong, unecessay or anything else is really the conjecture now isint it?

[Regis]

that was kinda my take on the thread stretch too , not to limit at that ft pds. I'm just gonna follow the procedure , its not like its gonna take much time to do it ,I just wasnt aware of it before . I kinda lean toward the idea of not having to do it if you havent loosened the rear diff to begin with though . I don't see much margin for error . the dampers should take up that much .

[Rio Wil]

rio will - sorry i had editerd my original post about 10 seconds after I posted it, because i initially said bearing but after reading noticed my mistake and changed it to spline , I'm not sure how you got the first version , because mine says splines .no big deal , does my post show splines or bearing on your page ?  Hell , I thought I caught the mistake before anyone even had time to read it . hahaha

That was kinda funny.....I wrote my response and posted, later I was looking around and read splines instead of bearings and thought I was losing what little of my mind I have left!!!

My last thought is just this:  anything you can do to keep the splines from acting as a mini ujoint is a good thing, which means you want the stack of machined end/side surfaces being lined up on the axle exactly perpendicular to the plane of the ring gear.....should leave the drive flange in a neutral state with minimal squirm.....thats my story and sticking to it....oh, gotta lube every 10-15 K...

[Regis]

point taken rio wil ! we are victims of lag time in modern technology ! I will remember to use the 4 bolt process in the future . It's not like its gonna take alot of time either way , but I've never had a problem before .Damn I can't type for crap when I've had a few .spend more time correcting typos than typing .

[Valkpilot]

 I did what the book said but really don't fully understand the logic about the alignment, or torqueing the shock bolts differently- like 20 ft.lbs on the top and 2 different on the bottom.

The bottom shock bolts are a different design on each side and are being tightened into different materials -- steel on the left side and the aluminum rear drive case on the right.

[Rio Wil]

Yeah and I just stripped the threads on the one in the final drive housing.....guess will have to tap it out to the next larger size and machine  a bushing to get the proper fit in the shock....so far  in 5k miles it hasn't backed out at all.....ugh!   

[Ricky-D]

If it's stripped as you report I think the big problem will be getting it out.

That is one item that only needs to be snug. There is no force on the threads.

A helicoil would be my choice of repair for that particular item.

***

[Blackduck]

As a spanner thwirler for a year or 2 there can be no harm in axle first and pumpkin nut last and seems a reasonable way of doing things.
The bit that gets me is how you can totally get rid of any signs of lube and get a lovely big mess of rust. Just because you may have a dodgy O ring or "misalignment" holding the O ring from sealing does not explain the amount of damage done  in relatively short periods of time in some of the pic's that have been posted.
Hot hubs going into deep water can draw in water (boat trailer bearings are classics for this) but a rain storm while riding barely cuts it, centrifugal force comes into play and throws water away from the seals.

No stirring, just an observation.