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signart
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« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2013, 06:01:03 AM » |
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Meheeko? ???
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16788
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2013, 06:34:52 AM » |
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In the interest of weighing 2 grams of grease, I went to the building next door to where I work, the AMRL building... it is obviously a laboratory of some sort, I never gave it much thought... here at the university there's tons of labs. I went in the front and walked up to some guy who looked like he was probably a scientist of some sort, told him my name and asked him if he could help me use a scale in one of the labs to weigh some grease. He must have figured I was someone who belonged there (it's not like I don't belong anywhere on campus I'd want to go, but you know what I mean...) and said he would be glad to help me analyze the molecular properties of my grease  ... Anywho... he turned out to be the Director of the Electron Microscope Facility at Clemson, and he was less excited about helping me weigh 2 grams of motorcycle grease on a scale...  ...  One of my coworkers who home-brews has some scales that are accurate to .5 grams, he's going to bring them in today  ... others of my coworkers adulterate their coffee with tons of this stuff, I'm going to weigh the grease into one of these to get a sense of its volume so I won't have a need to weigh in the future...  If weighing the grease, instead of guessing, doesn't lead to consistently good results, I'll give plan B a whirl: load it up with waterproof blue belray... I feel challenged to make my driveshaft look like this every tire change...  -Mike |
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« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 07:15:49 AM by hubcapsc »
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Jess from VA
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« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2013, 06:40:21 AM » |
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OK Sheldon.......... how much does 2 grams of grease weigh anyway?  With lubricants (of all types) I'm of the school that more is always better, if messier. |
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signart
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« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2013, 07:48:05 AM » |
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That spline pic looks like it has been introduced to gear oil. When more gear oil is introduced then the grease will be gone (rinsed away?) If the gear oil doesn't continuously reach the splines, I suspect you might end up with what you discovered before.
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pancho
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« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2013, 08:34:32 AM » |
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I think you got it signart,,,,
Here are some comments from another forum on the subject.
FYI, some dealers & mechanics assume that moly assembly lube (having only a few % moly disulfied, and a low temperature carrier 'grease') is equivalent to moly paste. Not true. Moly paste does not lose any appreciable amount of it's properties up to maybe 600 deg F because of both the moly disulfide properties and its relatively low fraction of the carrier 'grease'. Lithium doesn't provide the same properties as moly...it is has a lower temperature and lower load rating, and generally degrades quicker IIRC.
There is a difference between a CV joint (like splines) and a roller bearing. Specifically a CV joint or spline does not have flow or relative movement of parts, but a bearing does. In a spline, the same mating surfaces always stay together. In a bearing, the balls & races move relative to each other and there is continuous flow and blending of lubricant and air. So a little grease haphazardly applied in a bearing gets spread to the friction surfaces. But in a spline the initial lubrication of each mating surface is all that the mating surface ever sees. Hence, the flowing properties of the grease or paste matters--when using a paste it is assumed that it is properly lubricated on every friction surface during assembly, and that the lubrication (paste) stays in place during the entire service life.
Multi-purpose grease is called for on sliding surfaces like axles. Moly grease and paste are used when the surfaces are under pressure; which you use depends on how much. You'll find silicone grease on the disc brake pins and the clutch master cylinder piston because it won't destroy the rubber boots that cover them.
Needless to say, they're not interchangeable. If you put a general-purpose grease on the rear wheel or drive splines, the pressure will destroy it, the splines will have no lubrication and will wear out. Similarly, moly paste is very thick and gloppy and probably wouldn't do a good job keeping itself nicely spread out on a sliding surface like an axle.
To sum it up,,,if the service manual calls for Molybdenum Paste (rear wheel splines comes to mind) that's what you need to use, not some off the wall marine grease some dealers use.......on splines. I bought my jug here. 70% instead of 60%, but still good
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The most expensive things you will purchase, are those things you would not have needed if you had listened and obeyed.
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16788
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2013, 08:50:53 AM » |
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That spline pic looks like it has been introduced to gear oil. When more gear oil is introduced then the grease will be gone (rinsed away?) If the gear oil doesn't continuously reach the splines, I suspect you might end up with what you discovered before.
That picture was what I saw when I was changing my tire, after 6 or 7 thousand miles. I wish I could see that every time, but the reality is that bleghh is what I see sometimes... -Mike |
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Chrisj CMA
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« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2013, 08:55:15 AM » |
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This sounds like discussions we had ten years ago. You guys spouting all scientific definitions of what constitutes a paste and what qualifies as a grease and using scales to weigh the stuff. Sounds all high tech and all but what you are doing is just reinventing wheels. Go right ahead try this, experiment with that, blow up a few pinion cups and drive splines..............Its all been done, proved and tried.
1. Proper assembly is the first and most important thing
2. Using a waterproof grease (paste) whatever is the next most important thing (Honda 60 does not hold up to water and is not a true paste.)
3. Having good O-rings is important
4. Putting the grease inside the final drive instead of mostly on the flange so less is pushed off during assembly is important
The type of grease is not as important as you might think. What is important is that it stays put and doesn't dry out. I work on a few bikes (not just mine) One guy ONLY uses Belray waterproof grease (the green stuff) His splines are pristine. All the rest use my formula. A dab of molly paste and then cover with a good water proof heavy equipment grease from Lucas. (I would use the Belray, but I can never find it when I need it)
Molly grease on both ends of the driveshaft and I don't rely at all on them two holes (sometimes it looks like oil is in there and sometimes not) and its never dry or worn.
Again assembly assembly assembly...loosen the 4 bolts even if you're not removing the final drive. Make sure the right side shock is off and the wheel is off the ground when you torque the axle to 81ft lbs (or a tad more is not bad NOT LESS).
Its not rocket science, its all been hashed out many times, go with what works, or be ready to buy more parts.
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« Last Edit: May 10, 2013, 08:58:22 AM by Chrisj CMA »
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signart
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« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2013, 09:14:28 AM » |
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Mike, I'm just guessing, but at 6 or 7 thousand maybe what your seeing is your grease beginning to break down. (looks thin to me). If it ran submerged it would be great. Let's say at another 6 - 7 thousand it gets thinner, and heat takes it's toll and then blehh?
I'm beginning to believe the holes are for venting functions during operation & assembly/disassembly. maybe.
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Westsider
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« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2013, 09:39:33 AM » |
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I like to change my final drive oil every oil change. I fill it till it runs out, but on the side stand, not straight up , gives it a little more oil and its good to go. Gear oil is cheap, relatively... engine oil gets filled bike sitting straight up... |
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we'll be there when we get there - Valkless,, on lookout....
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16788
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2013, 09:53:25 AM » |
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Mike, I'm just guessing, but at 6 or 7 thousand maybe what your seeing is your grease beginning to break down. (looks thin to me). If it ran submerged it would be great. Let's say at another 6 - 7 thousand it gets thinner, and heat takes it's toll and then blehh?
I'm beginning to believe the holes are for venting functions during operation & assembly/disassembly. maybe.
Maybe is where I'm stuck too...  I guess Daniel Meyer always uses the amount of grease the manual specifies, and he always gets good results. I just measured 2.5 grams of grease and am shocked at how little it is. The dime in Pancho's grease picture is almost the size of a plate on my 24 inch monitor  , in real life 2.5 grams of this Valvoline moly grease is nothing. A modern penny happens to weigh 2.5 grams... http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/?action=coin_specifications , so I made sure the scale was calibrated correctly with a penny. Daniel Meyer said something about having a final drive off the bike, spinning the drive with a flange, and seeing final drive fluid fly out the holes. If I can do that I'll film it and put it on Utoob... If I went 6 or 7 more thousand miles on a tire around here I'd be riding around on a 10 inch rim -Mike |
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Chrisj CMA
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« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2013, 10:13:56 AM » |
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I like to change my final drive oil every oil change. I fill it till it runs out, but on the side stand, not straight up , gives it a little more oil and its good to go. Gear oil is cheap, relatively... engine oil gets filled bike sitting straight up... Its so much easier to service the final drive when its off the bike. If you use synthetic oil it can last every bit as long a spline grease job no problem.......lube the splines change the final drive oil, then there is no oil pouring out everywhere |
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pancho
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« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2013, 10:49:52 AM » |
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My scale weighs to 10s of a gram and 2.5 grams seems like a little mountain to me, enough to thoroughly lubricate the joint for a period, but I look at that as the recommended minimum,,,, I made mine sloppy with a combination of good grease with some honda 60 moly like others have said they do.
The empirical data from the site suggests that those who liberally lubricate with grease do not have problems... like Chrisj said "its not rocket science"
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The most expensive things you will purchase, are those things you would not have needed if you had listened and obeyed.
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Rio Wil
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« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2013, 04:33:12 PM » |
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I have done this about 12-14 times, one would think sooner or later I would get it right....  [/quote] Another way to say this is, three times out of 12-14 times my splines were a wreck.....its almost like a crap shoot.... |
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16788
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2013, 11:21:25 AM » |
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Here's my 2.5 grams of grease picture... a cylinder of grease the diameter of a quarter, four quarters high... the line I scrawled on the creamer cup is a little misleading...  I put the right amount of new final drive fluid into one of the final drives I refurbished, and slapped in a flange and tried to crank it until some came up into the cup... maybe I just don't have 100 horsepower, but I couldn't get any oil into the cup... here's my last attempt... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIo3lyXsxzQI ordered a couple of pinion cups, close inspection of the salvaged ones I have shows they don't deserve to be mated to a brand new drive shaft...  Its all been done, proved and tried.What has been is what will be,
and what has been done is what will be done;
there is nothing new under the sun.I think I'll put plenty of grease in there... I ordered the pinion cups a few minutes ago (noon Saturday) and I'll probably be able to pick them up after work on Tuesday at the Toccoa Honda shop. -Mike |
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pancho
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« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2013, 11:58:09 AM » |
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Ecclesiastes 1:9
Hey Mike,, that picture of the grease seems right. is that about the amount you have been using in the past??? if you put it in a pinion cup it may look pretty good.
I am thinking that the reason you were not able to get oil out of the holes in the PC, is probably because you put the proper amount in the drive..... So, are you just going to load her up?? Dont forget the moly.
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The most expensive things you will purchase, are those things you would not have needed if you had listened and obeyed.
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16788
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2013, 12:27:24 PM » |
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So, are you just going to load her up?? Dont forget the moly.depending on the tropical rain forest conditions and the pinion cup arrival, I should know Wednesday afternoon... -Mike
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hubcapsc
Member
Posts: 16788
upstate
South Carolina
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« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2013, 06:04:51 PM » |
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So, are you just going to load her up?? Dont forget the moly.depending on the tropical rain forest conditions and the pinion cup arrival, I should know Wednesday afternoon... -Mike We put this amount of grease in Stanley Steamer's pinion cup today. In the cup and on the pinion end of the shaft it is easy to see that it is lots more grease than I normally use... -Mike |
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Chrisj CMA
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« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2013, 06:40:56 AM » |
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I like to change my final drive oil every oil change. I fill it till it runs out, but on the side stand, not straight up , gives it a little more oil and its good to go. Gear oil is cheap, relatively... engine oil gets filled bike sitting straight up... Why? Why does "engine oil get filled sitting straight up" You say that like its important. I usually take the stands off and let the bike rest on the side stand to give me easier access to the fill hole. Either way (I have done it straight up too) doesnt really matter a bit. |
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Jabba
Member
Posts: 3563
VRCCDS0197
Greenwood Indiana
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« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2013, 08:21:25 AM » |
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Guys, Squealy and I have ours overfilled by 1 OZ right now. I might get to mine tomorrow... Right now I am working on my IS, and I plan to tear it apart later today... it was serviced like my last one... with anti-seize, and no... I will NOT be doing that any more. I did service a buddy's IS that we had done with anti-Seize last year, and his was wet, and in great shape.  I am fighting a gas leak now... and can't find it. I will be posting in another thread probably. Jabba |
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Jabba
Member
Posts: 3563
VRCCDS0197
Greenwood Indiana
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« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2013, 02:32:52 PM » |
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