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Inzane 17
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Author Topic: starter realy question  (Read 879 times)
Toledo Mark
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Posts: 609


Formerly Zeus661

Rossford, Ohio


« on: June 29, 2013, 10:29:37 AM »

Just replaced my starter relay after 14 years.  It was fried where the red wire runs into it.  Was wondering when it goes bad.  Do you think it fries when you hit the starter?  As you are riding it? when you shut it off?  When you turn the key on?

In my case it ran fine, I shut it off, went in to eat. Came out turned the key and nothing.

Just wondering and trying to learn more.
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R J
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Posts: 13380


DS-0009 ...... # 173

Des Moines, IA


« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2013, 10:50:01 AM »

I see you have passing lights added on.

Did you put a relay on them and not go through the headlight wires?

Added lights not properly installed will fry that red connector everytime in about 2 or 3 years.

Don't bother asking how I know that.  It was my plain stupidity.   I was in a hurry and decided not to put a relay in it.
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Toledo Mark
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Posts: 609


Formerly Zeus661

Rossford, Ohio


« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2013, 11:07:45 AM »

RJ,  14 years ago when I wired them it was according to the directions supplied by Cobra.  At that time I didn't know any better.  I will get a relay on them but probably after Inzane.  Until then I will start it with them off.  Plus when I rewired the relay I ran the red wire to the main fuse screw instead of through the relay. 

Those lights are my only electrical addon.
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Dropbox is a neat app I found that I use to store files and pictures of my Valk.
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valky1500
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Posts: 206


MI


« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2013, 11:37:13 AM »

Just replaced my starter relay after 14 years.  It was fried where the red wire runs into it.  Was wondering when it goes bad.  Do you think it fries when you hit the starter?  As you are riding it? when you shut it off?  When you turn the key on?

In my case it ran fine, I shut it off, went in to eat. Came out turned the key and nothing.

Just wondering and trying to learn more.

That relay has a 20 amp load (30a on IS) and the wires are according. It is the starting side circuit not the load side.  Smiley

Adding more to it (such as light bars and radios, etc.) is why the red wire fries. Over time, that added load also wears out the switches and anything else connected to it and that's a no-no from the start.  Shocked

Load sources DO NOT belong connected to the starting side of the circuit. They belong connected to a load bar, which is directly connected to the battery (both HOT and GROUND).  Roll Eyes

When adding more circuits to a factory bike it needs to be known that the starting-side circuit is used for switches to control wires or directly to other relays only. They turn the power on and off only. That way it saves everything connected in between, the switches and relays and it frees up the circuit from early wear-out like you are experiencing there.  Cool

Putting fuses on the HOT wires (between the battery and the light bar or the radio, etc.) is what prevents them from overloads. In your case, with connected loads to the starting circuit, there is nothing to stop that added load from overloading excepting that red wire on the starting relay.  Cheesy
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I have taken notice to those who use that word (Precautionary) and abide by it are not only very happy in life...
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Rio Wil
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Posts: 1360



« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2013, 01:43:30 PM »

I am a little confused as to what extra load you added to the red wire circuit. That red wire provides a fused (30) amp source to the ignition switch for distribution to control all the relays, and low current devices that don't need a relay.  Electrically, the red wire is already connected to the 55 amp main fuse that comes from the alternator, but with one big caveat. The big red wire circuit to the ignition switch is protected by the 30 amp fuse that is housed on the start relay. That 30 amp fuse has nothing at all to do with the starter motor (other than providing the start switch with voltage to energize the coil on the start relay through the ignition switch), it only provides for a convenient place for a fused connection to the ignition switch functions. 

So, if you connected the red wire to the 55 amp fuse circuit, you MUST protect the red wire with a 30 amp fuse like the one housed on the start relay.  Just use a in line 30 fuse and you are fine......

You can connect your add on lights directly to the battery positive if you like but you should use an in line fuse of appropriate size to protect the wiring to the lights AND you must use a on/off switch that is rated at sufficient  capacity.  Ex.  If the two lights are 35 watts each, that that is about 3 amps per light or 6 amps total.  A inline fuse of 10 amps would probably be sufficient and use a switch rated at 15 amps.  Or use a relay and connect the lights to the battery through the relay contacts (still need a fuse in that line) and if using a separate switch (as you seem to have already) can back off to a 5 amp switch to control the relay coil.  If you use the relay method, you can probably tap into the circuit that controls the headlights and not increase that circuits current load by more than a quarter amp, (just for the relay coil) and not cause undue stress on the red wire circuit.

I think I would utilize the 30 amp fuse on the start relay, put the red wire back on the relay connector (the old one did last 14 years) and use one of the methods described above and be done with it..........Hope this makes sense?

 Smiley Smiley   
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Toledo Mark
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Posts: 609


Formerly Zeus661

Rossford, Ohio


« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2013, 07:15:42 AM »

Rio,

I forgot to say I did run the red wire through a 30a inline fuse.  I know, an important detail I left out.
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TJ
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Posts: 1825

Lake Placid , Fl.


« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2013, 08:05:41 AM »

The real problem is Honda screwed up and left it open ... In 2000 they fixed the problem
by putting a rubber boot over it... Problem  Solved...

All 97 -99 will have this problem sooner or later....
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Toledo Mark
Member
*****
Posts: 609


Formerly Zeus661

Rossford, Ohio


« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2013, 08:08:33 AM »

I'm waiting for radio Shack to open as I plan on taping it up some with coax cable tape.  I use that stuff on antennas outside and it will waterproof the relay nice. 
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Dropbox is a neat app I found that I use to store files and pictures of my Valk.
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TJ
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Posts: 1825

Lake Placid , Fl.


« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2013, 08:16:11 AM »

RTV WILL WORK BETTER... (SILICONE )
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valky1500
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Posts: 206


MI


« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2013, 09:03:13 PM »

I am a little confused as to what extra load you added to the red wire circuit. That red wire provides a fused (30) amp source to the ignition switch for distribution to control all the relays, and low current devices that don't need a relay.  Electrically, the red wire is already connected to the 55 amp main fuse that comes from the alternator, but with one big caveat. The big red wire circuit to the ignition switch is protected by the 30 amp fuse that is housed on the start relay. That 30 amp fuse has nothing at all to do with the starter motor (other than providing the start switch with voltage to energize the coil on the start relay through the ignition switch), it only provides for a convenient place for a fused connection to the ignition switch functions. 

So, if you connected the red wire to the 55 amp fuse circuit, you MUST protect the red wire with a 30 amp fuse like the one housed on the start relay.  Just use a in line 30 fuse and you are fine......

You can connect your add on lights directly to the battery positive if you like but you should use an in line fuse of appropriate size to protect the wiring to the lights AND you must use a on/off switch that is rated at sufficient  capacity.  Ex.  If the two lights are 35 watts each, that that is about 3 amps per light or 6 amps total.  A inline fuse of 10 amps would probably be sufficient and use a switch rated at 15 amps.  Or use a relay and connect the lights to the battery through the relay contacts (still need a fuse in that line) and if using a separate switch (as you seem to have already) can back off to a 5 amp switch to control the relay coil.  If you use the relay method, you can probably tap into the circuit that controls the headlights and not increase that circuits current load by more than a quarter amp, (just for the relay coil) and not cause undue stress on the red wire circuit.

I think I would utilize the 30 amp fuse on the start relay, put the red wire back on the relay connector (the old one did last 14 years) and use one of the methods described above and be done with it..........Hope this makes sense?

 Smiley Smiley   


There is no doubt that 2 separate (main) circuits are on the bike. They are joined together at the battery as you are saying above. They are also separated by using 2 different ground sources and what you're describing above is just what Honda did about it.   Wink

It's safe to say they designed the circuit that way but when adding more watt consuming add-ons the dynamics are changed. The 55amp is the charging side- from the alternator to the battery and provides the total draw for everything when it's turned on.     Shocked

The 20 or 30 amp (depending on model) is the running side circuit- it's from the battery to the start relay, to the key switch, to the start button, to the kill switch, to the head light, to every other switch and light, radio, cigarette lighter, etc. on the bike and finally it provides for the coils to the plugs.   Cheesy

I took it into consideration when thinking that everyone already knew all of that and went on to make a few points in reference to this knowledge.   Lips Sealed

1) Putting more add-ons to that running circuit is a no brainer. Over time it wears out all of those switches and connections with overloads as everything is connected to it. All the power passes through them to get to where it goes and...

2) If you're going to put more power consuming add-ons, such as the light bar I see on the bike we are talking about in this thread, save yourself some trouble down the road and put them on the charging side (to the battery) instead.

3) Better yet, connect them directly to the battery and take them off the already crowded running (start) circuit.

4) Only connect the control wire (for relays) to that circuit and save yourself some more trouble down the road.

5) Always use a fuse between the battery and the add-on to make it its own separate circuit.

5) Be aware that even the 55 amp circuit has it's limits of watts output from the alternator to the battery.  cooldude

6) Wire grease works wonders on all switches, relays and connections.   2funny
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'98 Standard
'01 IS
Yes I pull a trailer

I have taken notice to those who use that word (Precautionary) and abide by it are not only very happy in life...
but they also live long and prosper.  Wink
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