WILL NOT START -- I'm stumped

[Mapper]

Getting fuel to the carbs… checked that before I went back to work.  Time to try the jump start again…

oh funny… like not haha funny.  Not haha but rough like it almost went out of sync or sputtering for gas.  Would not maintain idle when it fired up.  Then later would not do more than sputter.  There is gas both in the tank and the carbs.

Right now, another jump start is going to be the next thing for sure.  The idea of checking the spark plugs was because of doing the compression check anyway.

Thanks guys...

[BF]

You said that the bike has pretty much been sitting for several weeks.....correct?

If mine sits for several weeks without first being prepped for a proper sitting (heavy dose of Seafoam) without being fired up, it spits and sputters like crazy untill I can get good freash gas flowing threw the carbs. 

As for your battery, the instructions in my Sears hi zoot battery charger says that if the battery ever sees 10 volts or less, it's toast. 

[BlueValk]

 The starter is running fine… I get sputtering from the engine but will not catch.

I suggest jump starting it again, and make sure that the choke is all the way on.
Good luck!
BlueValk

[vanagon40]

Sorry guys!  Had to go do something and get back to work.

I think that I had bad jumper cables.  I screwed the battery in tight, instead of using the cables and it started right up…. for a couple minutes   (bad jumper cables??)

Battery shows good voltage, alternator is charging the battery at 14V+… 

The motor sounded different… rough.  maybe from sitting?  Sounded good, but now I can't get it started.  The starter is running fine… I get sputtering from the engine but will not catch.

Some suggestions from a buddy: check the vacuum plugs (has been desmogged), pull spark plug and check for compression… also check spark (while it's out anyway). 

I have a dan-marc fuel switch, stock petcock… I've checked that there is gas in the carbs.  Sounds like the dan-marc is clicking.  Also, don't think the petcock is the problem since there is fuel in the carbs. 

When I get back home, I'll try the vacuum plugs and spark plug.

Any other ideas?  How did this all start from a bad alternator?  Would attempting to push start with a bad alternator have led to this?  Doesn't seem it should….

". . . it started right up…. for a couple minutes . . . ."  Did the bike stall or did you shut it off?


". . . I think that I had bad jumper cables . . . ."  It sounds like you have never had any success in trying to start the bike except by using voltage from only the motorcycle battery.

". . . In fact, car battery was also dropped to ~10.5V with starter clicking. . . ."  Again, possible low voltage.  Where did you measure the voltage, at the car battery terminals or somewhere on the bike?  [As an aside, I have a 1982 SilverWing that I rode to work one day and left the key on.  Obviously, the battery was flat dead when I tried to start the bike that evening.  A co-worker tried to jump the bike with an old Dodge Neon and cheap jumper cables.  The bike would not start with the car not running.  She started the car and with the extra voltage from the alternator, the bike finally started.]

The problem started with a dead alternator.  I would ignore all the other suspected problems (fuel, vacuum, etc.) until you confirm the bike will not start with proper voltage.  Get better jumper cables or hard wire a car battery to the bike.  If the voltage still drops below 11 volts when attempting to start, try spinning the starter with the plugs removed (no compression).  If the voltage still drops, I would start looking for an electrical problem (such as the starter relay as suggested in R.J.'s post).

I would suspect the rough running the one time the bike did start might be due to flooding, fouled plugs, etc.

Good luck.

[R J]

Try one more thing for me.

When ya go to start it, key on, full choke, and I mean full choke, non of this 1/2 way on the lever, and KEEP YOUR FINGERS OFF OF THAT RIGHT HANDLEBAR.

It somkeone happens to hit the throttle on a cold start of MGM, he refuses to even fire.    Trust me, no throttle and he should fire right off, if the battery is any good.

I would like to see a good set of jumper cables on a non-running car/truck battery.

Where do you live, what state, town?

[Chiefy]

I don't know the Valk's electrical system inside and out, but........

I'll bet lunch at Cracker Barrel that you didn't have a bad alternator in the first place.  Sounds like you have an intermittent connection between the electronic ignition and the output of the alternator/battery system.

You clearly had iffy connections at the battery, which you fixed.  Keep looking.  Slide on spade type connectors get dirty after a few years.  Check all you can locate.  Look for connections a previous owner may have made himself.  Wires twisted together, then taped over will lose their connectivity as the glue from the tape oozes in between the strands of the wiring.

Keep it simple.  A wiring schematic will just have you chasing your tail at this point.  Disconnect the battery, and dig in and inspect any connection you can find.

[Mapper]

vanagon, bike started, sounded rough… I went inside for a minute and when I came out the RPMs had dropped to virtually nothing.  I revved it up some, and when it didn't stabilize I shut it off.  Checked a couple things tried again and it stalled after a minute.  Ran a quick errand before going back to work, it wouldn't start afterwards.

RJ, I trickle charged an extra car battery last night.  I intend to pick up the new jumper cables today.  As soon as I am able, I'm going to try jumping it one last time, then replace the battery.  Of course, I've got my bets on you guys  

I don't think it can be overstated how helpful everyone has been!  

RJ, I'm in Seaside, CA… in an area that used to be Fort Ord near Monterey (about 1.5 south of San Francisco).  Bike stays garaged… has sat for about 2 weeks now since being broken.  Other than that, I ride everywhere every day (not too cold here, and hardly rains like back east).

Chiefy, I'll check connections some more… haven't checked the ignition yet.  As far as twisted wires, this bike is very clean in that respect.  If you want my bad alternator as a "good" spare, I am tempted to mail it to you

[Bone]

I went inside for a minute and when I came out the RPMs had dropped to virtually nothing.

When mine does that I slide the choke lever back and the RPM's increase quickly.

[Chiefy]

Chiefy, I'll check connections some more… haven't checked the ignition yet.  As far as twisted wires, this bike is very clean in that respect.  If you want my bad alternator as a "good" spare, I am tempted to mail it to you

Guess I missed where you tested it with a voltmeter, or had a shop test it then.

[R J]

vanagon, bike started, sounded rough… I went inside for a minute and when I came out the RPMs had dropped to virtually nothing.  I revved it up some, and when it didn't stabilize I shut it off.  Checked a couple things tried again and it stalled after a minute.  Ran a quick errand before going back to work, it wouldn't start afterwards.

RJ, I trickle charged an extra car battery last night.  I intend to pick up the new jumper cables today.  As soon as I am able, I'm going to try jumping it one last time, then replace the battery.  Of course, I've got my bets on you guys  

I don't think it can be overstated how helpful everyone has been!  

RJ, I'm in Seaside, CA… in an area that used to be Fort Ord near Monterey (about 1.5 south of San Francisco).  Bike stays garaged… has sat for about 2 weeks now since being broken.  Other than that, I ride everywhere every day (not too cold here, and hardly rains like back east).

Chiefy, I'll check connections some more… haven't checked the ignition yet.  As far as twisted wires, this bike is very clean in that respect.  If you want my bad alternator as a "good" spare, I am tempted to mail it to you

Ya sir boss, I know where it is.   I was stationed in San Francisco for 3 years @ 100 Harrison St, downtown.    Last I knew my old base was a Postal Service Facility now.

Also worked that area as a CHP motor officer.   For a few years, and then I got assigned to the Lake Tahoe/Donner Pass Area.

[Ricky-D]

Here is a good article on load testing a battery.

http://gl1800riders.com/forums/showthread.php?208753-How-to-Load-Test-Your-Battery

Anyone that considers the auto parts stores can perform a definitive load test on a battery is misled.

***

[Mapper]

I was stationed in San Francisco for 3 years @ 100 Harrison St, downtown.    Last I knew my old base was a Postal Service Facility now.

Also worked that area as a CHP motor officer.   For a few years, and then I got assigned to the Lake Tahoe/Donner Pass Area.

A lot fewer bases than we once had, for sure.  Fort Ord is now mostly a natural recreation area.  The infrastructure is either derelict, incorporated into a college campus, shopping area, or military housing.  So many people have seen Seaside as my location and just assume I mean "by the sea" somewhere… for a minute I forgot you were a CHP officer  

I still have to make it up to the Tahoe area.  

As far as the bike issue goes… STILL NO JOY

After putting a brand new battery in the bike, I get the same turning starter.  I put a lead on the other post of the starter relay and read ~10.5volts while starting and I could feel the relay clicking over.  I'll see what I can find about what voltage I should read there.

Other than that… I'll get to checking connections again as chiefy and a couple others have recommended, then maybe check compression and sparklers….

Was REALLY hoping the battery would fix it… the old one is only 5 months old and would be an easy exchange… part of me is glad it wasn't though: this would be the second time I got stumped by a battery    and I used to be an electronics technician!  

[BF]

vanagon, bike started, sounded rough… I went inside for a minute and when I came out the RPMs had dropped to virtually nothing.  I revved it up some, and when it didn't stabilize I shut it off.  Checked a couple things tried again and it stalled after a minute.  Ran a quick errand before going back to work, it wouldn't start afterwards.

Dude.....your carbs are gummed up from sitting for several weeks.  

The next time you fire it up, keep on the throttle untill you run enough fresh gas through it to clear it up.  

Whenever you finally figure out what your electrical problems are, go for a ride and pour a can of Techron in full tank of fuel and go for a ride.  Keep the rpms below 2000 for the entire tank.  

[Mapper]

Dude.....your carbs are gummed up from sitting for several weeks. 

The next time you fire it up, keep on the throttle untill you run enough fresh gas through it to clear it up. 

Whenever you finally figure out what your electrical problems are, go for a ride and pour a can of Techron in full tank of fuel and go for a ride.  Keep the rpms below 2000 for the entire tank. 

How quickly do carbs gum up?  I am asking because I do not know.  What I do know is that I have ridden this bike daily for the last year (~10,000 miles) and the bike sat exactly 11 days before trying to crank it again.  I've already added seafoam, but at this point simply cannot get it started. 

I'll definitely run a tank at low rpms as you suggest, but for now I have to get it started first.

[Daniel Meyer]

As far as the bike issue goes… STILL NO JOY

After putting a brand new battery in the bike, I get the same turning starter.  I put a lead on the other side of the starter and read ~10.5volts while starting and I could feel the relay clicking over.  I'll see what I can find about what voltage I should read there.

Other than that… I'll get to checking connections again as chiefy and a couple others have recommended, then maybe check compression and sparklers….

Not clear on where you're tapping "the other side of the starter", but the voltages are too low...gotta be a bad connection (check the ground cable from battery, both ends, positive while you're at it...check closely to see if there's corrosion inside the crimps too...), or if you're tapping on the starter side of the relay and the battery cables are good, bad starter relay?

Dunno...you've got a weird one...but the key is that 10.5 volts...it's too low and shouldn't be dropping that much with good battery and clean connections.

[csj]

My input here may not be helpful, but I've been through a no-start situation
kinda like this.

My bike coughed and sputtered, died, and had to be towed home. Didn't go when
it got back, sat overnight, didn't start next day with the correct choke procedure,
fargin thing.

Decided to drain the carbs with the screw at the bottom of each one. Closed up the
screws, did the choke, turned right over and started.

Maybe ya got a batch 'o bad gas, ya need to drain it out.

[Mapper]

Not clear on where you're tapping "the other side of the starter", but the voltages are too low...gotta be a bad connection (check the ground cable from battery, both ends, positive while you're at it...check closely to see if there's corrosion inside the crimps too...), or if you're tapping on the starter side of the relay and the battery cables are good, bad starter relay?

Dunno...you've got a weird one...but the key is that 10.5 volts...it's too low and shouldn't be dropping that much with good battery and clean connections.

Starter relay, I meant… thanks, I fixed it in the original post.  Yeah, I checked starter relay post connected to positive side of battery, then the other post.  The other post read 0V, then read ~10.5V when pushing the starter button.  I can feel the relay switching.

I pulled a couple spark plugs and could feel the air pushing through the holes nicely.  NO SPARKLING though… I should be able to actually see it, right?  I put the plug back into the wire and pressed the start button, no sparking.

Maybe ya got a batch 'o bad gas, ya need to drain it out.

csj, I would do a rain dance if you told me it might help.  I'll try to find out why I'm not getting a spark and if that could be related to the voltage on the relay.  Draining the carbs sounds good too… worth a try anyway, especially if it worked for you.  Thanks.

[BlueValk]

You want to make sure the spark plug is grounded when checking for a spark, not just hanging in the boot.

I wouldn't be concerned about the 10.5v while the starter is turning.  That is not bad.  You can google that info.  Here is one quote: "Normal cranking voltage is anywhere from 9.5 to 11.0".  More searching supported that quote.

I suggest a fuel issue as well.  But, I don't think the carbs could gum up enough in 11 days to keep it from running.  Could run rough, but run.  Maybe you ran the bowls dry?  Petcock?

Make sure that the choke is all the way on. 

BlueValk

[Denny47]

It has been posted here before that the negative battery wire/cable will corrode and lose conductivity at the grounded end. Have you cleaned the ground/negative end of the cable? I think some of the members have attached another wire at the grounded end and ran the new wire to a frame ground also.

[Mapper]

You want to make sure the spark plug is grounded when checking for a spark, not just hanging in the boot.

I wouldn't be concerned about the 10.5v while the starter is turning.  That is not bad.  You can google that info.  Here is one quote: "Normal cranking voltage is anywhere from 9.5 to 11.0".  More searching supported that quote.

I suggest a fuel issue as well.  But, I don't think the carbs could gum up enough in 11 days to keep it from running.  Could run rough, but run.  Maybe you ran the bowls dry?  Petcock?

Make sure that the choke is all the way on. 

BlueValk

Did not know that about the spark plugs… although sounds like someone said that somewhere 

Bowls are wet… tried the choke all the way on and off.  Petcock… hope not but maybe?

Good to know about the starter relay volts, thanks!

It has been posted here before that the negative battery wire/cable will corrode and lose conductivity at the grounded end. Have you cleaned the ground/negative end of the cable? I think some of the members have attached another wire at the grounded end and ran the new wire to a frame ground also.

I've checked continuity a bunch of times and it looks good too… I think I should actually take it off and clean it though.

Next step for me: drain carb bowls and clean and remount grounding cable.

[Patrick]

Ever notice how these topics take on a life of their own. No matter how long they go on, everything is usually covered within the first several responses.

[Mapper]

Ever notice how these topics take on a life of their own. No matter how long they go on, everything is usually covered within the first several responses.

As mentioned, ground cable is clean, tight, and shows continuity.  That would seem to be enough to put off taking it off and cleaning it for a day or two while checking into other suggestions, wouldn't it?

Give the layman a break, I am trying    

[3W-lonerider]

just  because you have continuity does'nt mean any thing. 1 strand of wire will give you continuity but wont handle the amps.

[Skinhead]

Couple of questions:

Was the new battery fully charged?  If not charge it.

Did you try jumping it again before you switched to the new battery?  When you jump it, attach positive jumper to the positive terminal of the battery, connect the negative jumper to some other metal point on the bike (preferably non chrome in case of an arc) perhaps the rear axle nut if you can get to it.  This would eliminate/by pass the negative battery cable ground if that is the issue.  Also can you smell fuel out the exhaust when it cranks/no run?

A little story, before I started frequenting this board, I was riding in Telico Plains with a dude on a sportster, he had rode there from Florida.  We pulled into a BBQ joint to eat and his bike died as we pulled into the parking lot.  It would crank but not run.  We screwed around for about half an hour, checking stuff, The battery cables looked clean and tight on both ends.  I just happened to grab the negative and pull, and the cable detached at the terminal where it attached to the block, it had fatigued thru the strands and there must have only been one good strand left when I pulled it.  W made a cable and were on our way.  My point is, it may not be obvious, so check and double check.

[BF]

Dude.....your carbs are gummed up from sitting for several weeks. 

The next time you fire it up, keep on the throttle untill you run enough fresh gas through it to clear it up. 

Whenever you finally figure out what your electrical problems are, go for a ride and pour a can of Techron in full tank of fuel and go for a ride.  Keep the rpms below 2000 for the entire tank. 

How quickly do carbs gum up?   I am asking because I do not know.  What I do know is that I have ridden this bike daily for the last year (~10,000 miles) and the bike sat exactly 11 days before trying to crank it again.  I've already added seafoam, but at this point simply cannot get it started. 

I'll definitely run a tank at low rpms as you suggest, but for now I have to get it started first.

Don't know exactly, however, mine has sat for a two week period before and had gummed up carbs.  When I went to start it, it ran veeeeery ruff, spit and sputter like crazy untill I could get good gas flowing. 

[Mapper]

Couple of questions:

Was the new battery fully charged?  If not charge it.

New battery was fully charged… now on the trickle charger for tomorrow.  I now have 2 MC batteries and an extra car battery being used

Did you try jumping it again before you switched to the new battery?  yesWhen you jump it, attach positive jumper to the positive terminal of the battery, connect the negative jumper to some other metal point on the bike (preferably non chrome in case of an arc) perhaps the rear axle nut if you can get to it.  This would eliminate/by pass the negative battery cable ground if that is the issue.  Before reading this, I used both red and black cables to ground negative end of battery to the block and a bolt along with the cleaned grounding cableAlso can you smell fuel out the exhaust when it cranks/no run?  a little, not much.

My point is, it may not be obvious, so check and double check. Absolutely.  If nothing else, it sparks new ideas and eats time while waiting for a clue 

just  because you have continuity does'nt mean any thing. 1 strand of wire will give you continuity but wont handle the amps.

Continuity is a start though   It's a good point you make: I also used the jumper cables to temporarily add new grounds while troubleshooting. 

Besides above… I drained the carbs… right side was pretty empty (from leaning?)… left side was pretty wet.  Tried again, no start.  I also checked the right side again to make sure gas was being put back into the carbs… it was.

Also looked at wires and connections again… found a couple I hadn't seen before but they look good.

If gas is getting to the carbs, that should also eliminate the dan marc and petcock, right?

[signart]

I think, after all you have been thru, I would go ahead and pull the tank & air box. Arrange a remote tank, like a known clean lawnmower tank or some sort and run it without any thing else hooked to the carbs. This way you can inspect the routing of the fuel lines and eliminate the petcock and dan-marc once and for all. Hang the remote tank high above the carbs. Some say the engine won't run right without the air box but I have not had that problem when not under load. That would be a good place to start from if it runs from there. You can check a good number of things while the tank and air box are out of the way. Good luck.

[Mapper]

 UP AND RUNNING (for real this time)
 

I'm not exactly sure what did it.  Last night I cleaned and checked/unconnected/reconnected some things and bike still didn't start.  I left the new battery trickle charging over night for more work today.

This morning I put it back in nice and tight and it started right up.  Sputtered a little, but I think most of the sputtering was done a couple days ago?  Had to go to work, came home and tried again and it still worked.  I buttoned her all up and ran some more sea foam through the lines.

Best I can figure is one of those new connectors I found last night may have been slightly unseated from my tugging around with the alternator replacement… dan marc connection maybe?  At any rate, I have a good clean ground, clean contacts, and a clean starter switch and a little more knowledge

Works good as new!  THANKS for all the help and patience with getting my bike up and running!  Weather turned nicer today (60's) so good timing too!

I think I saw someone awhile back mentioning the amount of money on bike maintenance saved from the help everyone is willing to give.  Whoever said that, I could not agree more.  I'm going to follow that idea and use some of what I saved to put towards the site.

Thanks again for the help!

[salty1]

Always like a story that ends well! Good for you.   

[Bert AKA,Valkaholic]

I had the feeling that your Problem was  Electrical ( not Firing ), or Fuel ( not getting Gas).  I am Glad to hear that you are Back in the Saddle, Ride Safe.

[Skinhead]

Glad it's running, I wish you KNEW DEFINITIVELY what the problem was, but I suspect you are right and it was probably a bad connection on the danmarc.

[mike4sho]

Hey Carter, glad you got it squared away.  Wish I was able to come over to help you with it, would like to see all that work in action.  Now that you got that done we can do some valves on my bikes!  Hah. Jk.  Enjoy the weather its been nice.

[fordmano]

Carter, SIR! congratulations on conquering this issue and getting your beast back on the road again!


First off I truly want to thank each and everyone of you that did your best to help Carter (Mapper) out on this. Our combined knowledge base and experience reserves are outstanding.

It has been very enlightening , enjoyable and extremely frustrating following along with you on this set of problems,,,,

And thank you for not sharing that I was phone coaching during all of this.... wouldn't want anyone to question my mechanical or troubleshooting abilities now would we (I)? I am fairly sure we covered everything that was mentioned and a few other items during our text messaging and phone calls? It was sure fun to see everyone offering troubleshooting advise and I am impressed with each of you that offered direction as well as I am satisfied I was able to hit most all and a couple other possible actions and directions as to how to check some things.

P.S. for anyone who cares,,, I had plans to head down to Carter's (Mapper) place over this coming weekend. Our schedules just don't line up very well. So if this wasn't resolved we where gonna tackle it together. I believe I am at leas an hour from his place so that added a 2 extra hour level of difficulty to helping him since he is a day guy and I am a night shifter.

P.S.S. Now I guess I should start a thread about the minor issue I am having on my own Phat Gurl...? Nah!

[mike4sho]

Good job Matt, I figured you were helping somehow.  Thought your bike was all fixed up, still having issues?

[fordmano]

Yup, still have that sporadic miss on 1 or 2 cylinders from the right side bank... It's gotta be fuel related but I just can't seem to get enough chemicals through the carbs to clean it out. It is so sporadic it isn't even effecting exhaust gas temps at all so I can't pin point what carbs to attack first.

[R J]

Yup, still have that sporadic miss on 1 or 2 cylinders from the right side bank... It's gotta be fuel related but I just can't seem to get enough chemicals through the carbs to clean it out. It is so sporadic it isn't even effecting exhaust gas temps at all so I can't pin point what carbs to attack first.

Get some good carb cleaning stuff, add it to the tank, strong dose, on a full tank and ride out it till you are sure their is treated gas in the carbs, Run not over 2,200 RPMS.    Let is set overnight and soak, or longer.    Then run the tank out.  By the way, unless you have a blower on the bike, burn 87 or 89 octane fuel.

Mine hates the 91 and up.    It runs sparadic when I had to use it, got the lower octane in it and she ran like a trooper.    Besides it costs tooooo much a gallon.

Sounds like it might be a idle circuit, dat be da low speed one,

[fordmano]

Done that well very close to that, but I have ran 3 cans of sea foam 1 bottle of StarTron and 2 bottles of chevron stuff. Still the same sporadic miss from the right side. I do have a 4degree wheel and the Dyna 3K set at similar to stock for some time and also set at settings 3, 4 and another one can remember the other I tried and has been a mixture of 89 & 91 octanes depending on the moment(tankfull). If it was an old v8 I would say vacuum advance timing was off or a bad set of points or even a bad bushing in the distributor. It has the miss at idle only after it's warm and off choke but after it's warm it is intermittent at idle and consistent sort of from about 1,600-3,800rpm sounds kinda like I am hitting the rev limiter at that RPM range.  If I can't get it figured out over the next few weeks then I guess the carb bowls come off and I go back to stock jets well mains will go back to stock 100 they105's now and a new set of 38's

[Patrick]

If this monster has 38 lows then the pilots are probably set at 1.5 to 1.75 turns ? How about opening them to 2 to 2.5 while the cleaner is being used. See if that clears it up and then re-set them back.

[R J]

If this monster has 38 lows then the pilots are probably set at 1.5 to 1.75 turns ? How about opening them to 2 to 2.5 while the cleaner is being used. See if that clears it up and then re-set them back.

That is a good recommendation for him Patrick.

Didn't knoiw he had a trigger wheel and a Dyno when we started, the Dyno would of been the 1st thing I'd of had him replace & check for correction, if not then put it back in.

[Mapper]

congratulations on conquering this issue and getting your beast back on the road again!


First off I truly want to thank each and everyone of you that did your best to help Carter (Mapper) out on this. Our combined knowledge base and experience reserves are outstanding.

P.S. for anyone who cares,,, I had plans to head down to Carter's (Mapper) place over this coming weekend. Our schedules just don't line up very well. So if this wasn't resolved we where gonna tackle it together. I believe I am at leas an hour from his place so that added a 2 extra hour level of difficulty to helping him since he is a day guy and I am a night shifter.

P.S.S. Now I guess I should start a thread about the minor issue I am having on my own Phat Gurl...? Nah!

Matt, as you requested I did not mention you by name   It was nice to see many of the same troubleshooting ideas between you and the guys here in this thread.  With you having a busy night shift, it kept the ideas mostly independent of each other.

Troubleshooting electrical stuff can be hard… especially if it is a problem that you introduced while troubleshooting (i.e. breaking a connection while replacing an alternator).  Troubleshooting over the forum or over the phone 2 hours away is even more difficult because you have to go by my description of the symptoms.  I'm glad I was able to get it done without you making the trip… beyond ideas and suggestions, most of the physical work only allows room for one person.  That being said, awesome job all around.  I could not have done this without you guys.

I think the icing on the cake is that if you still make it down here Sunday or Monday, we can snag Mike to hang out and ride instead of worrying about my bike.  Or we can try to snag Mike and try to help you with your other issue.  Would be great if Patrick's suggestion works