Does the Valk naturally drift to the right while riding?--SOLVED

[pancho]

8 Track,
I verified the shock setting via the steps and they are correct with the labels.

Pancho,
I don't quite understand the procedure you mention.  Given that the upper fork tube rotates independent of the lower fork slider, and that the axle "pins" the lower fork sliders together, I don't think you can simply rotate the fork tubes in the triple trees to adjust alignment.  As for loosening the steering stem nut, I am not aware that you can loosen it and adjust the front alignment like that of a bicycle.  Nothing in the service manual eludes to such, but if you have done this before, please elaborate.

Thanks.

Here is what I am getting at,, you have already made the measurements that show there is an alignment problem in the front end with the handlebar problem.  (all motorcycle manufacturers including Honda have tolerances tight enough to drive straight)  I believe the wheel has hit something hard enough to knock and warp the trees or tubes out of alignment to each other. By loosening the pinch bolts and top tree nut and rotating the upper tubes it will show the problem if it is in this area, then tightening the parts in the proper sequence may correct it if it is very small and things have just been "jammed" out of alignment. If it is not in those pieces, I am thinking you have bent tubes or some frame damage that is causing a misalignment.

A bike that will not drive straight is dangerous at any speed in my opinion.

[sclark]

Thanks for the follow up Pancho.  I will give it a try next opportunity, although I used a T Square earlier today and both tubes appeared square to the triple tree.

[pancho]

It won't take too much time, and it should provide you some good information,, hopefully pinpoint it. While I do not think the mis alignment is large, (not sure if hanging a T-square on the trees would show it) you are experiencing the handling problems it is causing,,, at some combination of lean angle, speed and forces it will cause instability,, I believe you NEED to find what is causing the pulling/drift.

[Ricky-D]

You cannot test the steering stem (triple trees) for anything

unless you completely unencumber them.

This means wires, cables, accessories and anything else.

You're kidding yourself if you think any differently.

***

[Chrisj CMA]

Other than the shock bushings being slightly out of round and the slight factory mis-drill of the riser holes on the upper triple tree, I have found nothing out of alignment or mechanically wrong despite multiple measurements.  I agree that deterioration of the shock bushings could cause some sag and will change out the shock bushings, but am somewhat doubtful that it will make a noticeable difference in drift.  

So the bushings are shot, and one side is worse than the other (the side the bike favors) but that cant be the problem?

OK, disassemble everything else first.  Sounds like a ton of work when new shock bushings are 2 minutes each.  .........HEY its your bike

[Ricky-D]

Not if the swing arm is proper and solid!

Have you never seen a rear, single swing arm suspension?

Probably a rear shock could be removed from the Valkyrie and still ride correctly.

***

[sclark]

Ricky, I agree with your comment on the triple trees.  My point was that it is highly unlikely that the upper and lower triple trees could be misaligned  (given their close proximity and that the forks must slide through) without seeing obvious discrepancies further down the forks.  I think Pancho has a great idea for assessing if the forks are true...loosen the fork pinch bolts and rotate the forks in the triple trees--they should rotate freely and I can measure the runout at various points on the fork tubes and should be able to insert the axle at any upper fork tube clock position.

Chris, I plan on changing the bushings but did not have them on-hand, so I went ahead and made the other measurements to further rule out any other discrepancies.     I attached the pics of the shock bushings, please advise if you or others think they truly are un-serviceable. The camera angle makes it look worse than when looking at them straight on.  When I removed the shocks, the bushing I.D. was symmetrical.



My next opportunity to troubleshoot will be this weekend.  

[Ricky-D]

Using string, actually thread, find similar areas on each shock starting at the bottom of the triple trees.

At each place tape a piece of thread a foot or more in length.

On each shock find a similar area farther down on each shock.

Now, take the loose end of each piece of thread and in an "X" pattern tape the thread to each shock at the corresponding lower point.

"Look" at the skew line.  There should be no skew line, nor should the threads be pressing against each other.

If there is a skew line, or if the threads are pressing against each other, there is a problem with the

shocks absorbers, or the triple trees, or both.

Something is bent!

***

[Chrisj CMA]

Those shock bolts are classic "shot bushings" indicators.  After you initially posted this I got on a straight road and let go of the bars to see just how much butt-input it took to make it track one way or another.  Not much was the result of my research so I would imagine that as much as the sag in the shocks those worn bushings will cause should be enough to make her track one way or another. 

I am sorry if you thought I was being rude or nasty.....Its just that my bike didnt want to go straight "hands free" either until I changed the bushings, now its perfect........hence the tip about the bushings.........I feel that is your problem.

[pancho]

"So in an attempt to take this all in, with the bike upright and front aligned with the rear, the left handlebar is more forward (guess about 1/2 to 1 inch) than the right."

Think about it men,, I would say this warrants a good look at the trees and forks....even if it is the shock bushings causing the problem.

[rxvalk]

I had the same problem checked out all kinds of different things. I was running a mustang seat When i put a stock seat on it it went away. Must of had something to do with the center of gravity. At least that was my experience. FWIW

[sclark]

Finally able to spend more time on the bike over the last two days.

1.  As previously mentioned, the shock bushings were worn.  Replaced those with Redeye Poly bushings--no change in right drift tendency, but an easy and inexpensive task that needed to be performed anyway.

2.  Leveled the bike by placing a bubble level on rear brake disk.

3.  Wrapped fishing line around rear wheel and using the forward and rear sidewall edge, projected a parallel line to the front wheel in order to have assist in insuring the front wheel was aligned with rear. First pic shows line wrapped around rear wheel.

Next pic shows the line projected forward (drew chalk lines off of the fishing line to better show up in pic). Pic also shows a buble level attached to front brake disk to determine if front wheel vertical level matched the rear wheel--it did.
 
4.  With front and rear in alignment and level, placed buble level on lower triple tree--it was level as well.
 
5.  With everything lined up, check the handlebar alignment and found the left forward of the right--not good.

Previoulsly I stated that it appeared that the riser holes in the upper triple tree were offset by 1mm, but after removing the handlebar and risers, the holes were measured from the forward edge of the triple tree and found to be the same.  What I did find, was that the risers were just slightly off when compared to each other and that there is a very small amount of play where the handlebar seats.  I swapped the risers (placed the LH riser in the RH hole, etc) and re-installed the handlebars and THEY WERE PERFECTLY ALIGNED--one problem solved!
6.  Using Ricky-D's string idea to check for fork alignment, the X showed no skew and the location where the strings cross showed no deflection or gap--Good! I then dropped a plumb line down from the X to the top of the tire and found that the plumb was slightly off from the center of the tire--not good.
 
The culprit appeared to be a slightly recessed front axle.
 
This was easily fixed by re-aligning the front axle.
7.  In an effort to continue checking for fork alignment and trueness, I removed the front wheel and used a dial indicator to run the length of the fork tubes.  Honda allows .008in and I found a BMW article that only allows .004 inch.  The forks were less than .004 in.  The pic below was taken from the BMW article, but illustrates the method I used.
.
8.  To check for any bowing, I placed a straight edge (verified on  a machinist's stone) at multiple clock angles  (pics below show front and side views) and used a feeler gauge to check for gaps.  A .004 in feeler gauge would not slide through--Good!

9.  I also aligned a T square against the lower triple tree and using the string X, verified that the distance between the T square edge and the forks were the same from top to axle.  Pic below does not show the ruler extending from fork to fork, but you get the idea.  The distance from T square edge to each fork was the same along the length--Good.

10.  I also re-checked the front axle trueness against a known flat surface--Good.
11.  I then slightly loosed the fork upper and lower pinch bolts and rotated each fork 360 degrees to verify that the upper portion of the forks were true--each rotated smoothly through the full range--Good.
12.  Finally, I loosened the steering stem nut and then followed the service manual's procedure for aligning the upper and lower trees.  The service manual does not specify how to counteract the 70 plus ft lbs of torque to the steering stem nut and some people may be tempted to just use the steering stop, but the BMW article I mentioned earlier http://w6rec.com/duane/bmw/forktool/
cautions against using the steering stop as it may cause misalignment of the trees and forks.  The same article provides a solution, which I used.  
13.  Re-assembled everything according to the service manual and went for a test ride--the right drift tendency was gone!

So, I went to a considerable amount of trouble and did not find a single smoking gun (so to speak).  The front wheel axle was slightly recessed in the LH fork; the handlebar risers were slightly tweaked but after swapping them and using care during reassembly to ensure everything lined up, the handlebars are now straight; the LH fork tube protruded above the upper triple tree 1mm more than the RH tube (I used a vernier caliper with dial indicator to get them exact on re-assembly); finally the process of disassembling and re-aligning the front end IAW the service manual seemed to correct any previous triple tree misalignment.

Thanks again for all the assistance.  Steve

[Jess from VA]

Amazing post Steve. 

Thanks for taking the time to show your process.

Crooked risers seems odd. 

[whitestroke]

the LH fork tube protruded above the upper triple tree 1mm more than the RH tube
So was the tightening per BMW what aligned the fork tubes evenly? And is that what you think was the cause of the drifting problem?

[sclark]

Thanks Jess.

Whitestroke,
The service manual states that when inserting the fork tubes into the triple trees, the top of the fork tubes (not the cap) should be level with the top triple tree.  If you just eyeball it, most likely one fork will protrude more than the other and cause slight misalignment.  I used a vernier caliper accurate to .001 inch to insure they were near exact. 
The BMW article goes to great length in showing how to measure for fork trueness and alignment.  It also states that simply torquing the steering stem nut with the triple trees wedged against the right stop (or lock) can cause misalignment between the upper and lower triple tree.  By placing a flat steel bar between the steering nut and left fork cap, you can counter the torque without tweaking the triple trees.

[pancho]

Good thorough troubleshooting approach to solving a problem, and good skills used in your methods!!!!  Glad to hear you are running straight and true,,,, I don't think that drift had a chance.

[Skinhead]

Finally able to spend more time on the bike over the last two days.

1.  As previously mentioned, the shock bushings were worn.  Replaced those with Redeye Poly bushings--no change in right drift tendency, but an easy and inexpensive task that needed to be performed anyway.

2.  Leveled the bike by placing a bubble level on rear brake disk.

3.  Wrapped fishing line around rear wheel and using the forward and rear sidewall edge, projected a parallel line to the front wheel in order to have assist in insuring the front wheel was aligned with rear. First pic shows line wrapped around rear wheel.

Next pic shows the line projected forward (drew chalk lines off of the fishing line to better show up in pic). Pic also shows a buble level attached to front brake disk to determine if front wheel vertical level matched the rear wheel--it did.
 
4.  With front and rear in alignment and level, placed buble level on lower triple tree--it was level as well.
 
5.  With everything lined up, check the handlebar alignment and found the left forward of the right--not good.

Previoulsly I stated that it appeared that the riser holes in the upper triple tree were offset by 1mm, but after removing the handlebar and risers, the holes were measured from the forward edge of the triple tree and found to be the same.  What I did find, was that the risers were just slightly off when compared to each other and that there is a very small amount of play where the handlebar seats.  I swapped the risers (placed the LH riser in the RH hole, etc) and re-installed the handlebars and THEY WERE PERFECTLY ALIGNED--one problem solved!
6.  Using Ricky-D's string idea to check for fork alignment, the X showed no skew and the location where the strings cross showed no deflection or gap--Good! I then dropped a plumb line down from the X to the top of the tire and found that the plumb was slightly off from the center of the tire--not good.
 
The culprit appeared to be a slightly recessed front axle.
 
This was easily fixed by re-aligning the front axle.
7.  In an effort to continue checking for fork alignment and trueness, I removed the front wheel and used a dial indicator to run the length of the fork tubes.  Honda allows .008in and I found a BMW article that only allows .004 inch.  The forks were less than .004 in.  The pic below was taken from the BMW article, but illustrates the method I used.
.
8.  To check for any bowing, I placed a straight edge (verified on  a machinist's stone) at multiple clock angles  (pics below show front and side views) and used a feeler gauge to check for gaps.  A .004 in feeler gauge would not slide through--Good!

9.  I also aligned a T square against the lower triple tree and using the string X, verified that the distance between the T square edge and the forks were the same from top to axle.  Pic below does not show the ruler extending from fork to fork, but you get the idea.  The distance from T square edge to each fork was the same along the length--Good.

10.  I also re-checked the front axle trueness against a known flat surface--Good.
11.  I then slightly loosed the fork upper and lower pinch bolts and rotated each fork 360 degrees to verify that the upper portion of the forks were true--each rotated smoothly through the full range--Good.
12.  Finally, I loosened the steering stem nut and then followed the service manual's procedure for aligning the upper and lower trees.  The service manual does not specify how to counteract the 70 plus ft lbs of torque to the steering stem nut and some people may be tempted to just use the steering stop, but the BMW article I mentioned earlier http://w6rec.com/duane/bmw/forktool/
cautions against using the steering stop as it may cause misalignment of the trees and forks.  The same article provides a solution, which I used. 
13.  Re-assembled everything according to the service manual and went for a test ride--the right drift tendency was gone!

So, I went to a considerable amount of trouble and did not find a single smoking gun (so to speak).  The front wheel axle was slightly recessed in the LH fork; the handlebar risers were slightly tweaked but after swapping them and using care during reassembly to ensure everything lined up, the handlebars are now straight; the LH fork tube protruded above the upper triple tree 1mm more than the RH tube (I used a vernier caliper with dial indicator to get them exact on re-assembly); finally the process of disassembling and re-aligning the front end IAW the service manual seemed to correct any previous triple tree misalignment.

Thanks again for all the assistance.  Steve

DUDE!  You need to buy a bigger camera.  Those pictures are way too small!

[pancho]

   


            "DUDE!  You need to buy a bigger camera.  Those pictures are way too small!"

HA

[Tx Bohemian]

Ok, maybe I'm just too lazy or just get bored with really loooonnng posts.
(actually I'm at work and don't have the time)

Can someone summarize what was the cause and correction?

[Patrick]

Seems to me like it was a simple improper previous fork and axle installation.

[Ricky-D]

Nope!

It was simply the visual challenge of the handlebars

not being in alignment with the rest of the bike.

No mechanical faults were encountered.

***

[Pappy!]

Wouldn't the fact that the front axle was not properly aligned/centered cause two different centerlines of the tires and create an inherent lean?

[8Track]

This procedure for checking the true alignment of the wheels and front end needs to documented in a step by step fashion together with pictures and put into the Shoptalk section.

Awesome methodology!

[Oss]

being the least able to follow the intricacies of the problem
but having read the whole post it seems to me that the
risers (were they aftermarket?) were not symmetrical or slightly different and switching them out led
to one half of the solution
the other half being re aligning  and seating the front axle

Is that what you think happened Steve?

[Patrick]

Yep, as said, two things.
Forks at improper/different heights
Axle not installed correctly.
Simple.

[sclark]

Oss,
It is really difficult to definitively say that the issue was due to the axle offset and/or fork tube height given they were no more than a 1mm off and within service manual specs (the service manual really gives nothing more than "eyeball it" for the forks and most would be hard pressed to see 1mm).  As for the axle, again "flush" is in the eye of the beholder and the brake disks still met the service manual spec for caliper clearance.  I believe it was mainly due to a previous improper tightening of the steering stem nut (using the steering lock to counter the torque) or out of sequence assembly and tightening of the steering head and fork tubes which caused triple tree mis-alignment.  (I really owe Pancho a lot of credit for prompting me to go that far in).

The risers were factory and ever sooo slightly different.  Additionally, there is some adjustability based on the manner in which you install and tighten them with the handlebars.

Pappy,
The point you make about the front axle offset causing two center lines and therefore an inherent lean is well made and probably would be noticeable at a significant offset, however it was only slightly offset in this case and it was offset to the right which given the center of gravity of the bike should have caused a left lean not a right lean as was the case. 

[Rio Wil]

 As for the axle, again "flush" is in the eye of the beholder and the brake disks still met the service manual spec for caliper clearance.

==========================================================

Actually it is quite defi8nitive as to the proper position of the axle relative to the left fork.  It seems the axles have a ring machined into them that is/can be used to insert the axle an ideal distance and have perfect caliper alignment. When the reference mark is just visible on the inside of the fork tube......done deal.....

[sclark]

Rio Will,
Your method has great logic--I wish the service manual would specify it as such, but I still submit that such a visual method could inject error.  I went back and looked at the pics I took prior to dis-assembly (when the bike demonstrated the right lean) and attached the pic below.  It too shows the reference line you mentioned, however it resulted in the tire being 1mm off center to the right when I applied more stringent measurements. 

Respectfully,
Steve

[Rio Wil]

I have done my share of front/rear wheel alignment using the string merthod and find it highly doubtful that you can consistently detect a mis-alignment of some .040 inch in a 5 foot run from front to rear. You also indicated the the offset you observed should have caused the bike to drift the opposite direction you were experiencing. I would be interested in seeing a photo of where the axle is aligned now.  The use of the reference mark? seems to be a reliable method of setting the clearance for the brake rotors within the calipers.  The factor needed some simple method of  of doing this during assembly....

I suspect the plumb bob misalignment (which requires a perfectly vertical wheel position) of the top of the front wheel may well have been the result of not following the axle tightening procedure and resulted in the front tire being tilted from vertical. I think that is what bouncing the front end with the front brake locked will equalize. Not sure a 1 mm mis-alignment over a 13 inch run is reliably  repeatable with a bubble lever. 

Kudo's for sticking with this until you got the desired results....it would have nice to have a definitive smoking gun.....I just replaced a front tire om my bike yesterday. It had a slight pull to the right and after replacing the tire it was gone.....who knows...

[VALKen]

Nope!

It was simply the visual challenge of the handlebars

not being in alignment with the rest of the bike.

No mechanical faults were encountered.

***

I'm very much inclined to agree with Ricky-D on this. Misaligned handlebars WOULD affect the riding whereas all the other mechanical issues would, as Ricky said, have no effect whatsoever. It is in fact surprising how asymmetric a bike can be yet still ride true. Many bikes have totally asymmetric suspension or braking, being designed that way with only a single disc or suspension arm on just one side. Ducatis don't veer off to one side just because they only have rear suspension on one side. 

Basically, the reason for a bike to drift to one side is the Centre of Gravity NOT being over the point of balance, i.e. tyre contact patch on the road. Anything that causes the rider to not sit true will have a major impact on this, e.g. misaligned handlebars would be a classic cause.

The other issue that has been raised is the front axle alignment. If this is not correct it is very likely the CofG will be shifted slightly to one side. Traditionally Honda locate the wheel to one fork leg and the other is just self aligning on the axle and the fork then clamped in that position. Let the 'loose' fork leg find it's best position and clamp it rather than using any marks which can easily result in slight misalignment just due to parallax errors when viewing while tightening. However, the symptom of misaligned fork legs on the axle more usually show up as stiff forks. However, if the wheel is actually shifted slightly to one side (e.g. with wrong spacers used), then it would result in a shift of the CofG with the resultant sideways drift while riding.

As a matter of interest, many years ago when I worked at Honda UK, we had an issue with the rear wheel alignment of the then current CB750. When the wheel was set true according to the marks on the swing arm, it was definitely NOT straight with respect to the front. We contacted Japan and they replied that they knew this to be the case. It was intentional as the bike rode better that way. Food for thought. 

[jimmyboy]

Really good info on this thanks guys. I have a 2001 Valk with about 23000 miles on it which I have only had a few months. I have had both tires replaced, a Metzler ME880 200R/60 on the back, and a Metzler ME880 150R/80 on the front.

On slow rides I have found this bike has a low speed weave, i.e. it is like having a pillion who is constantly moving from one side to the other every couple of seconds. Letting go the handlebars results in the bike leaning first one way and then the other. Holding the handlebars the bike tends to want to go off line first one way and then the other, requiring constant rider input (body english) to keep a straight line. This is most noticeable at 30mph on the straight, but is not noticeable over 50mph, or on a winding road.

Using straight edges clamped to the rear tire I have found the back wheel is around 1/2" to the right of the front wheel. This bike does not appear to have ever been crashed, and the front forks, triple clamps etc all look to be perfectly in line from all sides. There is no wobble in the front bars at any speed whatsover, nor any tendency to move consistently to the right (or left), just this slow weave around 30mph, first to one side and then to the other.

The weave is not noticeable when I start a ride, but is noticeable after about 20 minutes. After much thought I suspect this is because when the rear tires gets warm, it develops sufficient grip to start to pull the rear of the bike off line, but not when its cold. This causes a weight transfer which automatically corrects, resulting in the low frequency weave.

To get the rear wheel to correctly align with the front wheel after loosening the axle nut requires using a G clamp to pull the rear wheel to the left side swingarm (while also tapping the axle backwards on the LHS and then tightening the axle nut). This fixed the issue for about 30 minutes or so on the next ride, but it eventually returned. When I checked the rear wheel I found it had moved back to its original off line position.

Following advice on the forum I have loosened off the four shaft drive nuts and then aligned the wheel and tightened the axle nut, and then tightened the four shaft drive nuts. This improved the alignment very slightly but it is still close to 3/8" off line.

The only solutions I can think of are:

1/  Make up a spacing washer to fit on the axle and hold the axle back on the LHS - however this will cause a lot of permanent load on the axle, and I am worried it may dramatically shorten the shaft drive or rear wheel spline life.

2/   Plane the face of the rear wheel casing so as to move the RHS of the rear wheel forward slightly -by my calculations around 1/32" should do it (half of 3/8" divided by 6 (ratio of rear axle to wheelbase). This will result in a minute change in the alignment of the rear wheel splines with the shaft drive. I assume this assembly is fully floating in any case in order to cope with the up and down movement of the back wheel and therefore should not notice a minute change in the horizontal plane.

Has anyone else had this issue with their Valkyrie? (I have had two Wings ('77 1000 and '87 1200) and about 20 other bikes and have never had this problem before).

Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

[pancho]

First thing Jim, I would not modify anything trying to fix an existing problem. There is something wrong,, the first thing that comes to mind is a warped wheel, but you seem to be focusing around the wheel alignment.  If there truly is a wheel misalignment between the front and rear, I would start measuring and checking the alignment of the front end and then the frame.     

I certainly would not be modifying the bike to get around a problem,,, that is a big mistake in my opinion.

[Ricky-D]

It would be a smart thing to start a new thread!

***

[jimmyboy]

Pancho you have a good point I did not think the wheel was warped  I did check the alignment  at several different positions and when I checked the misalignment today it was only 1/8 " . Good call, I will check the wheel and axle for trueness.

[pancho]

Hope you find it jimmyboy,,, wobbling around on the road does not lead to feelings of confidence.

[jimmyboy]

Before doing anything rad, check your steering head bearings. If they have been over-tightened or are notched (indexed), your bike will either yaw from side to side or wander. My bike was driving me nuts due to rear wheel misalignment (about 3/8" off), a good mechanic suggested I loosen the steering head bearings 1/4 of a turn.

Voila!!!    All weird tracking, yawing and handling problems magically gone. My bike now feels about 200 lbs lighter in the front. I would like to reach out and smack whoever over-tightened those mothers!

As long as the steering head is able to move freely, the bike will naturally balance and steer ok - it may not sit perfectly vertical or the handlebars may not be perfectly straight, but the bike should find its own equilibrium.