Fuel with or without Ethanol pros & cons

[BigTex]

Question regarding Valk Fuel

Are there any pros or cons to using fuel without ethanol?

I live in Dallas area and haven't been able to find non ethanol fuel here, but I make trips up to Oklahoma once a month and could pick up fuel there if it performs better.

Any experience or comparisons?

Thanks,

BigTex

[Chiefy]

Have you tried this link for finding non-ethanol?      http://pure-gas.org/

I run non-ethanol.  My *unscientific* observations are:

The bike runs slightly smoother
The bike has slightly more power
My gas mileage is slightly better

I don't think the above 3 would be enough to make me pay extra for pure gas.  But Ethanol has a reputation for eating up parts of the fuel system, and clogging our tiny jets.  Put it all together, and it's worth it to me.

[MP]

Some swear using one gallon of ethanol fuel ruins any engine it is used in.

Others, like myself, have been using it for decades, in many engines, without ANY trouble.

What is the best oil to use?  LOL

MP

[salty1]

Use ethanol free gas whenever you can. Corn is for eating, why burn our food.   

[mustang071965]

as a Heavy equipment Mechanic i can tell you that ethanol destroys a eng from with in. it eats up fuel lines, it destroys o rings and turns most polymer seals to mush. ethanol promotes rust in fuel tanks. remember the old days when gas had a sweet smell to it. now it stinks, and that is from the ethanol. but with it being put into just about every type pf gas today. there is really no cheap way to avoid it. i have used many different additives over the years for fuel and oil. the best i have found in Lucas. they make a ethanol additive for gas that helps counter act the destructive power of ethanol. i use it in my bike along with my dads GL1800 trike at every fuel up.  i also use Lucas 10w40 motorcycle oil semi syn. no im not a Lucas salesman it just plain works. also another add i have used is Seafoam Creep. it to helps with the Ethanol and keeps the eng clean inside.

[Ricky-D]

U.S. EPA to FTC: Ethanol Harmful To Motorcycles

Recently the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) proposed a new rule regarding the labeling of ethanol blended fuels in order to “help fuel purchasers identify the correct fuel for their vehicles.” Ironically, the new rule would exempt any fuel meeting the Environmental Protection Agencies (EPA) E15 waiver from the proposed labeling requirements.

In the record section of the proposed rule, the EPA provides information under the “objections to the proposed labels” section openly stating that ethanol is harmful to motor vehicles, and specifically mentions that ethanol is damaging to motorcycles.

The EPA indicates two major ways that ethanol affects vehicles. First, ethanol enleans the air to fuel ratio by increasing the proportion of oxygen relative to hydrocarbons. This can lead to higher exhaust temperatures and can possibly cause catalyst failure by gradually deteriorating emission control equipment. Next, other component failures can occur due to materials compatibility issues with ethanol use.

The EPA also found, that ethanol can damage older conventional cars, heavy-duty engines, motorcycles, and non-road engines, explaining: “Older motor vehicles, heavy-duty gasoline engines and vehicles, motorcycles, and especially non-road products cannot fully compensate for the change in the stoichiometric air-to-fuel ratio as ethanol concentration increases. Over time, this enleanment caused by ethanol may lead to thermal degradation of the emissions control hardware and ultimately catalyst failure. Higher ethanol concentration will exacerbate the enleanment effect in these vehicles, engines, and equipment and therefore increase the potential of thermal degradation and risk of catalyst failure. In addition to enleanment, ethanol can cause materials compatibility issues, which may lead to other component failure and ultimately exhaust and/or evaporative emission increases. For older motor vehicles, heavy-duty gasoline engines and vehicles, motorcycles, and non-road products, the potential for materials compatibility issues increases with higher ethanol concentration.”

***

[F6Dave]

I'm no fan of ethanol, and hate the fact it's being forced on us for no good reason other than to enrich crony capitalists.  Having said that, I think the Valk has modern enough fuel system parts to prevent the severe degradation seen in many older vehicles.

The biggest problem I've seen in newer vehicles is when they aren't driven for a while.  Since ethanol absorbs moisture from the atmosphere, water will accumulate in tanks and carb bowls.  I've seen this in my old BMW airhead.  If I haven't driven it for many months, I'll pull a carb bowl (takes seconds; held in place by a spring clip) and see blobs of water at the bottom.  To avoid this I try to fuel it with pure gas as often as I can.  It also helps to fully fill the tank in order to minimize the surface area exposed to air.  This applies to any power equipment that is used on a seasonal basis, and is critical for boats because of the intermittent use and moisture-laden environments.

I ride both my Valks year round, so in my experience the issue with ethanol has been slightly decreased mileage and performance.

[Jess from VA]

I have kept two valks carbs clean only running corn polluted gas, cause that's all I can get.

It really is not an issue with regular riding.  But storage and sitting is the problem with ethanol, so when one (or both) will sit, it gets a full tank, ethanol treatment (Startron or Lucas), Marine Stabil, and one of the following (Seafoan, Techron, or Berryman's B12).  Slosh the tank to mix, and run enough to get it down thru the fuel system.

This may seem like overkill, but I suck at carb repair, and as far as I know all 12 of my carbs are as they came from the factory (but for all new Viton orings, and a couple carb synchs).

Turn the petcock off when not riding.     

[Red Diamond]

Some swear using one gallon of ethanol fuel ruins any engine it is used in.

Others, like myself, have been using it for decades, in many engines, without ANY trouble.

What is the best oil to use?  LOL

MP

There is a lot of data quoted on this board about ethanol mixed into gasoline we use on a daily basis. I've been buying gas a long time, remember when the ethyl grade was the only thing to stop the V-8s from pinging, no ethanol was in that gas. Even in the 70's and earlier, gasoline went bad from sitting in a car not driven for a while. I have had not one single problem with by bikes related to ethanol enriched gasoline, not one in the 12 years I have owned a Valkyrie.

[BigTex]

Hey I wanted to thank everyone that commented on the ethanol fuel vs pure fuel.

Lots of great thoughts and ideas, I do appreciate it.

I have a 2003 standard, and have only put 1000 miles thus far in 9 months of ownership, so there has been some times she sits and waits.

I will probably pick up some pure gas when I go up to okiahoma, it seems pretty available up that way. Since there isn't any down side to using the pure, and possibilities of problems with the ethanol formula. 

Thanks so much,

BigTex

[Farther]

Some swear using one gallon of ethanol fuel ruins any engine it is used in.  Others, like myself, have been using it for decades, in many engines, without ANY trouble.  What is the best oil to use?  LOL
MP

+1!!

[Pete]

Have you tried this link for finding non-ethanol?      http://pure-gas.org/

I run non-ethanol.  My *unscientific* observations are:

The bike runs slightly smoother
The bike has slightly more power
My gas mileage is slightly better

I don't think the above 3 would be enough to make me pay extra for pure gas.  But Ethanol has a reputation for eating up parts of the fuel system, and clogging our tiny jets.  Put it all together, and it's worth it to me.

++++99999999999999999999999999999999999999999

[Farther]

++++99999999999999999999999999999999999999999

A poorly integrated multiple personality?

[CoachDoc]

Anybody else add marine 2 cycle oil to their fuel? I picked this up from guys on the Honda SOHC board! where all the bikes are 30-40 years old, and thus obviously more at risk to the negative effects of ethanol. I add 1/2 oz. per gallon, which is considerably less than you'd add to a 2 cycle engine. No harmful effects that I can see, MPG the same, plugs look great. I do notice a slight oily residue on the insides of the exhaust, much like the 2 cycle bikes, which may help inhibit rust. The SOHC guys think the 2 cycle oil can negate the ethanol effects on sensitive parts of the fuel system, while maybe also providing some more top end lubrication. I've been doing this in my '74 550 for a decade or so, and I started doing it more recently in my Valk and even my Goldwing. Thoughts?

[Jess from VA]

Normally, 2-stroke oil would reduce gas mileage.  Maybe in small doses not, but if I pour my (premixed) 2-stroke gas in the lawnmower, it does get less laps of the yard per tank.

Maybe similar to adding Marvel Mystery oil?

[Fastera]

As a Fuel Quality Director for a major oil company, I have extensive experience with all fuels including those oxygenated with 10% Denatured Fuel Ethanol.  Ethanol has less BTU content than Neat Gasoline , so it reduces the overall BTU content of ethanol blended gasoline and therefore requires more volume to produce the same amount of power (read less MPG).  Ethanol can cause corrosion and oxidizes fairly quickly, so anti-oxidants are requires to increase storage stability.  Ethanol also has very poor lubricity and therefore is not a very good candidate for blending with 2 cycle oil.  Some states have allowed the use of neat gasoline in place of oxygenated gasoline for marine and small engines (I.e. Lawn equipment).  The EPA has mandated the use of ethanol in order to meet the RFS II mandate so it is here to stay.  Use stabilizers for winter storage and use a good quality cleaner (techron, Berryman, etc) periodically and you should not have any problems.

[Brian]

I am now trying to keep 100% gas in my bike when I can get it. We now have three stations here selling the middle octane as 100%. I understand the fuel is coming from one supplier here even though the station is BP or Shell.  That corn fuel caused me issues where I had to rebuild the carbs replacing all the O-rings. You need to read the label for the additives as some use alcohol too. I am now only using one type of additive it is Liquid Performance. I tried all the others and still ended up with issues. We'll see over time if staying with one product will pay off. I do notice a slight increased mpg's.

[Jess from VA]

As a Fuel Quality Director for a major oil company, I have extensive experience with all fuels including those oxygenated with 10% Denatured Fuel Ethanol.  Ethanol has less BTU content than Neat Gasoline , so it reduces the overall BTU content of ethanol blended gasoline and therefore requires more volume to produce the same amount of power (read less MPG).  Ethanol can cause corrosion and oxidizes fairly quickly, so anti-oxidants are requires to increase storage stability.  Ethanol also has very poor lubricity and therefore is not a very good candidate for blending with 2 cycle oil.  Some states have allowed the use of neat gasoline in place of oxygenated gasoline for marine and small engines (I.e. Lawn equipment).  The EPA has mandated the use of ethanol in order to meet the RFS II mandate so it is here to stay.  Use stabilizers for winter storage and use a good quality cleaner (techron, Berryman, etc) periodically and you should not have any problems.

The part about oxididization and corrosion and need for treatment during storage, and lower MPG I knew.  I was unaware of lubricity with 2strokes, but it explains a lot.  I use a synthetic mix which is good for all different mix ratios (40-1, 32-1, etc), but my multiple 2stoke machines have never run exactly right without additives.  It seems however the additive should be a bit more oil, not seafoam/B12(?).  Not for storage issues, but fur running issues. 

[fudgie]

I use E-10 when I go west. Bike loves it. No change in mpg is noticed. Been using since 06. I can tell a huge diff going from e-10 back to 'reg' gas.

[cookiedough]

I use E-10 when I go west. Bike loves it. No change in mpg is noticed. Been using since 06. I can tell a huge diff going from e-10 back to 'reg' gas.

E10 is worse vs. better, am I wrong?  Why saying bike loves E10 vs. NON-E10 gas?  Unfortunately,  in most areas where I live E10 is unavoidable unless you want to pay 40 cents more per gallon for 91 octane non-ethanol gas.  I use ethanol up to 10% gas all the time never had an issue although wish it wasn't there at all.  I have used E85 a few times in my pickup trucks E85 capable, and it plain sucks 3-4 less mpg and harder shifts and worse performance.

[fudgie]

I use E-10 when I go west. Bike loves it. No change in mpg is noticed. Been using since 06. I can tell a huge diff going from e-10 back to 'reg' gas.

E10 is worse vs. better, am I wrong?  Why saying bike loves E10 vs. NON-E10 gas?  Unfortunately,  in most areas where I live E10 is unavoidable unless you want to pay 40 cents more per gallon for 91 octane non-ethanol gas.  I use ethanol up to 10% gas all the time never had an issue although wish it wasn't there at all.  I have used E85 a few times in my pickup trucks E85 capable, and it plain sucks 3-4 less mpg and harder shifts and worse performance.

When I say e-10 I mean there is a actual button to push at the pump. Its like $0.20 cheaper.

[BF]

As a Fuel Quality Director for a major oil company, I have extensive experience with all fuels including those oxygenated with 10% Denatured Fuel Ethanol.  Ethanol has less BTU content than Neat Gasoline , so it reduces the overall BTU content of ethanol blended gasoline and therefore requires more volume to produce the same amount of power (read less MPG).  Ethanol can cause corrosion and oxidizes fairly quickly, so anti-oxidants are requires to increase storage stability.  Ethanol also has very poor lubricity and therefore is not a very good candidate for blending with 2 cycle oil.  Some states have allowed the use of neat gasoline in place of oxygenated gasoline for marine and small engines (I.e. Lawn equipment).  The EPA has mandated the use of ethanol in order to meet the RFS II mandate so it is here to stay.  Use stabilizers for winter storage and use a good quality cleaner (techron, Berryman, etc) periodically and you should not have any problems.

What he said.   

[salty1]

Well stated Faster a and informative. Nice to have an expert on the Board.   

[Momz]

I'm not a fan of ethanol, but my 2014 GMC with the new Gen5 motor is rated as having 355 H/P using E-10, and making 380 H/P using E-85.

Go figure!

[MP]

We must remember, there is a HUGE difference between E-10, which has UP TO 10% ethanol, and  can be burned in regular gas engines.

Versus E-85, which is 85% ethanol, and CANNOT be used in regular engines.

Seems to be some confusion among the two.

MP

[weeder]

Hell its all ethanol anymore  isn't it?      I gotta start shopin  around I guess.

In the mean time  I use the  ; lucas safeguard ethanol conditioner/ stabilizer  -- 1 oz per tank ,
it was a post last year I cant find to link .   1 bottlt treats 15 valk tank fills. only have used 2 tanks yet...

heres the lucas product ;http://www.lucasoil.com/articlelist1-30/0/LucasSafeguardEthanolFuelConditioner