Progressive HD 444 on Valkyrie Tourer

[Kunkies]

Circling back as promised.

I finally had an opportunity to retrofit stock GL1500CT (Tourer) shocks with Progressive 444 HD (heavy duty).

I choose HD because I was on the cusp of weight limits for the standard shocks yet, I ride two-up ~20% of the time and/or I'm carrying a substancial load for long distance trips. I also went 12.5" (1/2" less than stock) in hopes of dropping the seat a tad although for whatever reason that did not happen.  Rider sag was also the same as my stock shocks which amazed me:  3/4".  My stock shocks were set at "3", and my new Progressive 444's HD are set all the way soft.

The verdict:  amazing.  I never thought a set of shocks would make such a huge difference.  Ride, feel, improved lean confidence it is all there.  I highly recommend these shocks (and don't listen to Progressive they fit the Valk' just fine).

Considering getting a set of standard (versus HD) 11.5" with tension set all the way up and compare.

[BonS]

What model number did you get? I just tried some 12.5" old 440's with 120/170 pounds/inch springs on my Interstate and it's way too soft even after cranking it all the way up. It did lower my seat some but some of that was sag for sure. I have a 205/65 car tire and, riding 2-up it would rub on some road dips with only 170+105 passenger weight.

I'll be swapping these today with 13" 440's with 140/200 spring rates today and expect a much better result.

My biggest complaint with the Progressive 440's and 444's is the adjustment method. I'd much rather have the cam mechanism like OEM. Are the 444's any easier to adjust? Having to lift the bike to adjust the shocks is a pain.

[hubcapsc]

Keep a little $5 rubber strap wrench in your saddlebags and
adjust your progressive shocks anywhere and anytime you
want with ease...

-Mike

[BonS]

Good morning Mike,

I have a rubber strap wrench and it's still a struggle. It's not only hard to turn but I have to raise my bike and remove the hard bags and work around the bars of the bag guards for room to swing the wrench. I had BigBF try to do this at Eureka Springs and he couldn't because he didn't have a lift. I'm thinking about disassembling one to see if there is any way to lubricate them.

Bon - "It's about as easy to just use my hands to spin them." 

[hubcapsc]

Hmmm... I have bags and rails and 440s, and I can't adjust
the 440s with my hands... but with the wrench, no problem.

Lube might help... the cap that compresses the spring is like
a big nut on giant threads, I guess there's a lot of stiction
there. Maybe some light lube and run the "nut" up and down
a few times, and then the strap will work?

I haven't adjusted mine in a while, though I ought to
when Carolyn is on back... maybe mine are stuck now
too...

-Mike

[Kunkies]

Part number I ordered:  444-4423C     The “444” is the model number and the “C” means chrome versus blacked out.  12.5” height, which is ½” shorter than our stock shocks or 13”.  I should have gone 12” or maybe even 11.5”

I contemplated both standard and HD (Heavy-duty spring) shocks, and after speaking directly with Progressive they thought I would be happier with HD springs.  Here’s why:
-I’ve added some weight to my bike; new seat, pillion, lift adapter, luggage rack, sissy bar, etc.,
-I am also 190lbs, 5’-10” with a 31.5” inseam (not very tall, not so long legs),
-I ride my Valk’ mostly for long distance travel `40% of the time, and/or 2-up ~20% of the time
-When I’m solo, she rides a tad stiff, however I prefer that for my riding style when alone is a little bit more assertive,
-Rider sag after installing 444’s was amazingly the same as my stock shocks set at “3”, or ¾” sag,
-Firm, yet pleasantly cushioned ride with full luggage; leather trunk, both hardbags filled to the gills and ~30-40lbs luggage bag strapped to the pillion,
-Two-up, cushy like a cruiser, boat…wife love it she weighs about 135lbs.
-Since installing the 444’s HD I have yet to bottom out, and I just returned from Daytona Bike week 2015, setting is ALL the way soft.


Saw your post on the Valk’ Riders site.  What did you install?  I’m looking to install Progressive 444 (not heavy duty) for I am 190 lbs, usually ride one up and may 5’10”.

[hubcapsc]

I'm 195 and have a few pounds of stuff in my saddlebags. I found the
non-heavy-duty springs to be unacceptable when chasing the
Wild Bunch around on bumpy back roads...

-Mike

[Kunkies]

Good feedback Mike, I agree.....

[BonS]

Part number I ordered:  444-4423C

Hmmmm, the Progressive Suspension 2015 Specifications and Technical Information pdf doesn't go up to 444-4423. It stops at 444-4244. I'd love to know your spring rate. Would you kindly take a look as it's printed on the spring itself and looks like white on silver.

[BonS]

I disassembled one of my 440's this morning and lubricated the thread area with Tri-Flow. I also lubricated the spring mating surfaces with 60% moly. It felt pretty good while turning it without the spring tension but when I reassembled the shock I can't really say there's much before-and-after difference. Definitely not worth the trouble. Oh, well.

[wingrider02]

BonS, for what it is worth, I put 12.5" 444HD's on my IS, which has a spring rate of 270/315.  Ride nice and firm, but I also am almost always two up.

[BonS]

BonS, for what it is worth, I put 12.5" 444HD's on my IS, which has a spring rate of 270/315.  Ride nice and firm, but I also am almost always two up.

Wow, that's a bunch! Thanks for the post. The 412 and 440 Interstate rates are 140/200 and the 412 and 440 standard rates are only 120/170. I'll be putting on 13" 440's today with the 140/200 rates and see how it works. I can always slap my OEM's back on if it fails. 270/315 Wow!

[Valkorado]

The verdict:  amazing.  I never thought a set of shocks would make such a huge difference.  Ride, feel, improved lean confidence it is all there.

+1.  I have the 13" HD 444s installed.  LOVE them!

[Jess from VA]

When I got a (permanent) supervalk IS, the shocks were worn (and 12.5"s and I wanted 13").  I did a bunch of study, and me at 180lbs always solo and bike lightly loaded, I decided to get 13" 440s with the standard duty springs (rather than the HD springs Progressive recommended for all interstates).  

Because of past experience with 440s (and it just makes sense), I needed to get them adjusted as soon as possible after install.  That ended up being 2-3 turns down from the softest setting they come on.  I have a strap wrench, but I just knuckled down and turned them with my hands (after removing seat and bags, with rails).  Of course, you can only get a very short throw, it was really hard, and my hands hurt for days.  I lubed them up brand new, and don't know if it made much difference.

I'd never seen much written on this, but I thought the best way to ease this 440 adjustment operation was to jack the bike up just until the rear wheel was barely touching the ground. That way, you removed all the spring compression, but you also did not have the shocks still carrying the full weight of the swing arm, drive unit and wheel/tire.  What do you think of this idea?

Now, last summer, some 6 years after install, and having gained about 20lb to my belly unit, I started to get the occasional bottoming on hard bumps/dips, and some shimmying on hard bumps/dips in fast corners, so I need to turn them down more, but when I gave it a quick try with my hands, no-way no-how.  I'll have to go after them with the strap wrench.  

Now on my first (and full dress) interstate, I went with the recommended 13" 440s with HD springs, and since 2005, that has been a perfect, if somewhat stiff (performance) suspension, never moved off the softest setting they came on, at any weight and with any load (but always solo).  

They were so stiff right from new at the softest setting, this is why two years later I went with standard rate spring 440s on my permanent supervalk interstate, on the theory that the HD springs could never be made any softer, but the standard rate springs could be made harder through 10 full turns of adjustment (which really is a PITA).

Just going from memory of my study years ago, I seem to remember being told by progressive suspension tech guys that 440 standard springs had to be turned down 8 of 10 turns to be equal to the  440 HD springs at the softest factory setting.

[BonS]

When I got a (permanent) supervalk IS, the shocks were worn (and 12.5"s and I wanted 13").  I did a bunch of study, and me at 180lbs always solo and bike lightly loaded, I decided to get 13" 440s with the standard duty springs (rather than the HD springs Progressive recommended for all interstates).  

Because of past experience with 440s (and it just makes sense), I needed to get them adjusted as soon as possible after install.  That ended up being 2-3 turns down from the softest setting they come on.  I have a strap wrench, but I just knuckled down and turned them with my hands (after removing seat and bags, with rails).  Of course, you can only get a very short throw, it was really hard, and my hands hurt for days.  I lubed them up brand new, and don't know if it made much difference.
Yup, lubing them is a waste of time or Progressive Suspension would have done it I'm sure.

I'd never seen much written on this, but I thought the best way to ease this 440 adjustment operation was to jack the bike up just until the rear wheel was barely touching the ground. That way, you removed all the spring compression, but you also did not have the shocks still carrying the full weight of the swing arm, drive unit and wheel/tire.  What do you think of this idea?
When the shock is fully extended it is the damper itself that limits the travel distance. And at that distance the springs is still under considerable load albeit less load than with the bike bearing all its weight on it.

Now, last summer, some 6 years after install, and having gained about 20lb to my belly unit, I started to get the occasional bottoming on hard bumps/dips, and some shimmying on hard bumps/dips in fast corners, so I need to turn them down more, but when I gave it a quick try with my hands, no-way no-how.  I'll have to go after them with the strap wrench.  

Now on my first (and full dress) interstate, I went with the recommended 13" 440s with HD springs, and since 2005, that has been a perfect, if somewhat stiff (performance) suspension, never moved off the softest setting they came on, at any weight and with any load (but always solo).  

They were so stiff right from new at the softest setting, this is why two years later I went with standard rate spring 440s on my permanent supervalk interstate, on the theory that the HD springs could never be made any softer, but the standard rate springs could be made harder through 10 full turns of adjustment (which really is a PITA).

Just going from memory of my study years ago, I seem to remember being told by progressive suspension tech guys that 440 standard springs had to be turned down 8 of 10 turns to be equal to the  440 HD springs at the softest factory setting.
Well, I'd say you remember very well. Doing the (linear) math, 8 of 10 turns will give you 160#/inch of travel spring rate on the standard 440. Taking into account that these are progressive springs then they're probably more like 170#/in at that point which is smack in the middle of the 440HD range ad the 440HD varies from 140 to 200 #/in travel.

I ride my IS solo empty, solo loaded, two up empty and loaded, I sometimes hang a rack on my trailer hitch and other times pull a trailer while solo, doubled up, empty and loaded. I'm thinking that air shocks are the only thing that going to meet my needs.

[Jess from VA]

I'd never seen much written on this, but I thought the best way to ease this 440 adjustment operation was to jack the bike up just until the rear wheel was barely touching the ground. That way, you removed all the spring compression, but you also did not have the shocks still carrying the full weight of the swing arm, drive unit and wheel/tire.  What do you think of this idea?

When the shock is fully extended it is the damper itself that limits the travel distance. And at that distance the springs is still under considerable load albeit less load than with the bike bearing all its weight on it.

So I'm not sure I understand.  OK, even unloaded the springs are still compressed and you are dealing with the damper.... but isn't keeping the tire just touching the ground still less weight in turning the shock tops than carrying all the weight on the swingarm on the shocks by jacking it clear off the ground?

Maybe this is all academic, since the SOBs are now going to require the strap wrench in any event.  (When I turned them by hand when brand new, I wore nitriles for grip.... I still had to get angry with it and make power lifter sounds, and hurt my hands.)

I ride my IS solo empty, solo loaded, two up empty and loaded, I sometimes hang a rack on my trailer hitch and other times pull a trailer while solo, doubled up, empty and loaded. I'm thinking that air shocks are the only thing that going to meet my needs.

This is what I've read from many who have large weight variability, and especially hauling a trailer, but a number of those guys were still unhappy with the air shocks for the most usual daily riding.... and some went back to HD 440s (or whatever the new ones are) and just lived with the tight suspension when solo and light.

The guys who have spent large for Works have all been happy; maybe they can build you what you need better than Progressive (just bring money).

[Mike R]

I'm needed new shocks myself for a 99 IS. where did you purchase yours?

[BonS]

So I'm not sure I understand.  OK, even unloaded the springs are still compressed and you are dealing with the damper.... but isn't keeping the tire just touching the ground still less weight in turning the shock tops than carrying all the weight on the swingarm on the shocks by jacking it clear off the ground?

When the spring itself is fully extended it has no force on anything. Unfortunately, once the damper reaches full extension then the spring length is fixed BUT it's not fully extended so there's residual spring force. Pushing on the shock via the tire/wheel/swingarm only serves to compress the spring more which can only drive up the residual spring force on the threaded adjustment mechanism.

Or put another way, the weight of the tire/wheel/swingarm pulls on the damper, when hanging, but does not bear any load on the parts of the shock that restrain the spring. So essentially, in that position, the spring and the shock end caps holding it are independent of those forces.

I agree about the reputation of the Progressive air shocks. They're published spring rates are much softer than the spring rates for the 440HD shocks. They require more air pressure or additional oil to provide additional load capacity. The pro are that they are rebuildable and easily adjustable. The cons are that they're a pressurized air system that is more likely to break and need rebuilding. They are relatively inexpensive though @ $360 per pair on Amazon.

[Valkorado]

I wasn't going to comment again, but my experience with Progressive air shocks was harrowing.  They were on my bike when I bought it.  They held their pressure fine,  but riding two up I scraped an exhaust tip pretty good.  No biggie.  Later that season, full pressure again (stated 70 psi) two up again.  Hit a small dip at highway speed and scraped a header.    That was enough for me.

[wingrider02]

BonS, for what it is worth, I put 12.5" 444HD's on my IS, which has a spring rate of 270/315.  Ride nice and firm, but I also am almost always two up.

Wow, that's a bunch! Thanks for the post. The 412 and 440 Interstate rates are 140/200 and the 412 and 440 standard rates are only 120/170. I'll be putting on 13" 440's today with the 140/200 rates and see how it works. I can always slap my OEM's back on if it fails. 270/315 Wow!

Yea, it did seem high, but with no real info on the 444 shocks for the a Valk, I had to go with the little bit of info I found, which were these burly shocks.  I mistakenly bought a different pair that were significantly lower spring wight that needed the preload turned all the way up to meet the sag requirements.

[Kunkies]

For BonS.....

Spring rate is 210/250

Specifically, and per your request the little silver stick on my Progressive 444's is written,  "1442 210/250"

[BonS]

For BonS.....

Spring rate is 210/250

Specifically, and per your request the little silver stick on my Progressive 444's is written,  "1442 210/250"

Thanks for that. Your 444's are certainly stiffer than the 440HD's.

I installed 13" 440's with 140/200 spring rates yesterday and took a 2-up ride today. It was pure bliss. I could feel myself tense up when approaching a pothole but I sure didn't have to. I likely have mine set up close to 180-190. You should be just fine at 210 and when you load up you'll still have plenty of spring range left. One thing for sure: the combination of Interstate, 12.5", and 170# spring rate is a total bust.

[Kunkies]

Agree.  Went for a spring ride yesterday with a passenger and the 444 HD's were like butter.  I have yet to bottom out . . .

[Anthony]

For BonS.....

Spring rate is 210/250

Specifically, and per your request the little silver stick on my Progressive 444's is written,  "1442 210/250"

in april 2014 I received a replacement set of 444 from Progressive, to replace my worn out 440 HD's.
I don't know what type i got as a replacement.
Based on the documentation, it looks like a special assembly :
The sticker on the springs says: "03-1318 140/200"

I don't know what the spring rate was in my old 440 HD's, that I have sent them, but
I can only say that those 444's with 140/200 are great for riding solo, but are way too soft for riding 2up.
with stuff in bags and 2 up there is about 450 pounds.


I asked them again a couple of times for an upgrade but have still to receive any response.

I would love to get a hold of those 210/250 or even 270/315 springs !
Anthony

[Kunkies]

Anthony, unless you are 300+ lbs 270/315 would be overkill.  I'm 185lbs and the 210/250 springs work great for me...

[wingrider02]

For BonS.....

Spring rate is 210/250

Specifically, and per your request the little silver stick on my Progressive 444's is written,  "1442 210/250"

in april 2014 I received a replacement set of 444 from Progressive, to replace my worn out 440 HD's.
I don't know what type i got as a replacement.
Based on the documentation, it looks like a special assembly :
The sticker on the springs says: "03-1318 140/200"

I don't know what the spring rate was in my old 440 HD's, that I have sent them, but
I can only say that those 444's with 140/200 are great for riding solo, but are way too soft for riding 2up.
with stuff in bags and 2 up there is about 450 pounds.


I asked them again a couple of times for an upgrade but have still to receive any response.

I would love to get a hold of those 210/250 or even 270/315 springs !
Anthony

I had mistakenly purchased a set of 444's that were a lot lighter than what I needed, and inquired with Progressive about changing the springs.  They would do it, but cationed against it, saying the valving would be off, and they couldn't say that it would work on a heavier bike.