Vtx Brakes

[Joevalk]

Has anyone ever put vtx three piston calipers on a valk? Plumbed up  integrated front and rear brakes. Vtx and Goldwings did this.

[sandy]

When Wings are triked, the front brakes are separated from the rear. The two circuits aren't linked together because the master cylinder reservoir isn't big enough to feed a 3 piston caliper.

[pago cruiser]

I've been looking into this for a bit.
I believe three piston calipers would work, but you would prolly have to change the master.  The 1800 Valks (and many other bikes, like 1100 Sabres which I know for sure) have a 5/8 MC.  These should move enough flow for easily available generic (like VTX) 3 piston calipers.  It might be easier to start with a known workable complete system though, including the VTX front MC.  Adapting the caliper to fit the fork tubes can be a bit time consuming, but it's not really difficult.  You'll likely need a good welder...or an NC mill guy. I just finished adapting a set of Concours ZG1000 dual calipers to a KLR650 front end that's going onto a XS650...   Anything is possible...

I picked up a GL1500 rear MC a few weeks ago, which would be necessary for the linked brakes - looks like it will bolt up to the Valk with minimal problems.  Again, while many folks don't like them, I think the linked brakes are superb on both the ST and my older GL1200.  The ONLY time I have had reservations about linked brakes is out in the boonies on dirt roads where the road turns to mud...  but I try to stay out of those situations...

Another way is to go with Pretech.  They sell 3 piston (also called 6 pot) calipers that work with the stock MC - I remember reading that someone on the site has/had them, but I have not seen any pics.  The Pretechs have superb reviews on other bike specific forums - especially Triumphs IIRC.  Best braking by far, and more important, much better progressive feel.   

While I have read several times that brakes on the Valk are ideal - and I really do not want to get in an argument with anybody... the brakes on my ST1100 spoil me.  There are some ... entertaining... threads on this site about upgrading brakes, but not a lot of usable info.  Kindly post if you go down this path; I'd love to see your progress.

[98valk]

per Motorcycle Consumer News the Valkyrie is still #2 for shortest braking distance of all bikes tested over the yrs.

[Joevalk]

I want to be number one UNO

[Joevalk]

The great Ricky Bobby says, if your not first, your last

[98valk]

the competition. dropped a few #s since the last time I checked 3 and 4 where 1 and 2.
Is time/effort $$$$ worth 2.5 ft on the street? just some teflon brake lines will shave 0.5 to 1.0 ft off the distance, approx. Full metallic race pads will provide that last few ft to be uno. Esp. use ultra sticky race tires just to make sure your uno, cause that is what 1,2,and 3 are using for the shorter distances and actually the tires will make the biggest difference for shorter stopping.

Shortest 60–0 Stops
1] 2006 Triumph Speed Triple . . . . . . . . . . 104.8'
2] 2008 BMW Megamoto. . . . . . . . . . . . . . 106.4'
3] 1999 Triumph Speed Triple . . . . . . . . . . 106.7'
4] 1997 F6 Valkyrie. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 107.4'
5] 1997 Suzuki Marauder 800 . . . . . . . . . . 107.6'

http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/article_index.asp    see performance index

[pago cruiser]

OK... I have seen this posted many times, and it has always made no sense to me HOW this can be this case...  So for the purposes of a friendly discussion...

Cannot argue with the numbers.  But numbers can also be misleading. Where I used to live (American Samoa), I could tell friends that the weather was great; year-round average windspeed was 12 mph; about like San Diego.  But hidden in those numbers was the reality of 360 days/year at 10mph, and 5 days ranging between 70 and 150 mph...   But back to brakes...

Look at the Valk.  Pushing 700 lbs, with, face it, rather mundane braking hardware.  Why should it's published braking performance be so good?  And why is there a segment of Valk owners (I would bet mostly multi bike owners as well) looking for "better" brakes?  And if you spend some time, you will find owners of other bikes with "published" really good braking distances also lamenting their bikes braking performance.

After thinking about it a while and doing some googling, I think it comes down to a combination of 1) braking hardware, 2) bike geometry/dynamics, and 3) rider skill/expertise. 

1) Assuming no overheating from repeated use (and assuming the bike is not overloaded) it's not hard to get enough brake force to lock the wheel.  That is the most braking effort that will be required of your hardware.  But this is NOT the fastest way to slow/stop the bike. Ideally, you would be applying the brakes to stop just short of lockup; tire traction becomes your goal.  For me (prior to ABS kicking in) this is easy in perfect conditions on the ST1100.  Not so much on the Valk.  And yet the Valk has a ...perfect... stopping distance 13 feet shorter than the ST, which benefits from 6 pot front calipers and linked brakes.  So in this case, the hardware is not the issue.  My concern is that the tip-over point of hard braking to lockup happens too fast for me to respond on the Valk.  Granted, my reactions are slower, as I just turned 60; but I have several hundred thousand miles on 20+ bikes over 50 years of riding.  It's not like I'm a tyro at this.

If you do some googling on the Triumph Speed Triple site(s), there are more folks looking for brake "upgrades" than on this site.  Here is a link to one topic on one forum:

http://www.thespeedtriple.com/forum/performance/10297-new-brakes-other-stuff-wow.html

This is in spite of the fact the Speed Triple has the top couple spots in minimal braking distance tests - more than a few folks think their brakes suck. On the BMW MegaMoto, reviewers complained of grabby brakes:  From Rider Mag: " Very light pulls on the front brake lever bite quickly, like a dog that snaps at you when provoked."  That is not the definition of controllability I am looking for; but as can be seen in the braking tests, in the proper hands it stops the bike incredibly fast - just like the Valk; but (I believe) for different reasons.  The Suzy Marauder (WTF??) rating (I think) has the number 5 spot for reasons similar to the Valk.

2) If you study those several pages of MCN data, one thing that stands out is the proliferation of Cruiser style bikes having shorter braking distances that sport touring or true sport bikes.  Not all, but there are many new-ish Cruisers with braking distances better than technologically superior sport/sport touring bikes.  Who would have guessed that a 2006 Harley Street Bob (122.7') would stop 5 feet shorter than a 2011 Concours 14 (127.8')?   Or a 2009 KTM Super Duke (126')?  I think this comes down to traction and Center of Mass (COM).  There is (almost) no doubt that most Cruisers have longer wheel bases/lazier steering designs, more mass (remember "road hugging weight?"), and lower COM.  ASSUMING there is enough brake hardware, I think these three things give a Cruiser an advantage over Touring/Sport bikes.  Lazier steering angle/longer WB mean more stability, and the front tire will slide before allowing the bike to do a stoppie; more mass means better contact area and friction with the road surface - hence better stopping "force"; and the lower COM means less weight transfer to the front wheel, so the rear brake can remain effective.  Fat tires are also beneficial, as they can apply/maintain higher friction with the road (more surface area) longer before locking up. 

Obviously, these criteria are related, and maybe even incorrect...    But I'm just trying to figure out why I feel safer (in regards to braking distances) on my ST1100, in spite of the fact that our heavy old Valk beasts can stop 13 feet sooner, AND, under perfect conditions, stop faster than 20 year newer bikes with every technological advantage...   

Anyhow, onto item 3) The riders doing these reviews are generally young, with as-good-as you-can-get reflexes, experienced with a great many bikes, and have the benefit of multiple tests of systems.  I.e., each published braking distance is the BEST result of dozens of attempts under perfect conditions.  When you work at something, you get better at it.  I'd also bet that most casual riders (I.e., not track guys) seldom, if ever, practice emergency/panic braking sufficiently to get, or remain, capable of stopping in distances to match the MCN published data.  I.e., it would take many practice attempts to get as good with our brakes as the testers get.

Anyhow, after this diatribe... , I think the conclusion I have come to is that braking hardware POWER is usually NOT the limiting factor in braking distances.  Chassis configuration, tires, and rider experience is what can result in expert riders getting a 700 lb Valk with mundane braking hardware to stop in a shorter distance than, say a 2013 FJR 1300; which has all the advantages that technology can offer, but also suffers from the limitations of Sportbike chassis and tires. I would think that eventually, electronic trickery (like maybe advanced advanced ABS) and careful matching of brake hardware to chassis will allow more sport tourers/sport bikes braking distances to get closer to, if not better than, our stodgy old Cruisers. The Speed Triples and BMW inclusion into the top indicates this is possible; but it has (apparently) not happened everywhere yet.  That the BMW is 400 lbs, has something called "Gold Spec" calipers, and was $20k in 2008 shows it's doable...

So, when folks are looking for "better" brakes, it does not necessarily mean more powerful.  Better, in my mind, means better control/linearity/progressiveness.   The ST1100 instills braking confidence; the Valk challenges braking confidence.  If I could get the Valk brakes equal in feel and... linearity to the ST (ABS aside), I believe it would be a significantly tangible benefit to my well being riding down the road.  And give me the chance to get closer to the perfection indicated in the MCN distance chart.

Dang - where'd half the day go?

Just my $0.03; But at least this makes a bit more sense to me now.         

[pago cruiser]

Well, decided I needed another project...



For $100 delivered just got a pair of VTX1800 6 pot calipers, hoses and MC.  Killer deal!
Just got home and opened the box, and the bolt pattern is identical to the Valk.  And I know the rotors are the same size as well.  Two big problems solved.  Looked at them a bit, and thought... hm, that looks familiar.  Went over to the 2002 ST1100 ABS and compared calipers... the fricken calipers are the same! This is gonna be interesting. 

May take me a couple weeks to get on this, as I have fresh paint coming, and there is a sidecar show in a couple weekends.  But from what I see right now, the VTX1800 6 pot brakes and the GL1500 linked rear master should be a not to difficult swap.  Stay tuned...

[brian1726]

I looked the VTX front calipers as a upgrade awhile back but
changed my mind when I seen they were linked.
Can you put them on with out linking them?
cheers...
Brian 

[pago cruiser]

Brian - I think it would, but you would need a "1 hose to 2 Banjos" fitting.  And from what my custom brake hose guy here in Tucson tells me, every hose he does is pressure tested to 2500 psi.

I took a bit of time yesterday and pulled off the right side caliper and tried to fit the VTX 3 pot.  Close, but no cigar  .  Will take some welding and fab.  While the caliper adapter bolts are the same size/spacing on the VTX and the Valk, the adapter on the VTX puts the caliper in a slightly different spot on the Valk.  It is the caliper-to-adapter bolts spacing that is different, because the bosses cast into the VTX caliper are in different locations than the Valk. 

In essence, each hole on the adapter is off by about 1/4" - where the partially screwed in chrome bolt is protruding on my pic below.  I made up a pattern, and will fab a couple pieces of 6061 to weld onto the adapter, and then mill them flat.  The part also contains one side of the mount for the pads, and the pins that the caliper rides on; so it is easier to alter the existing mount than to machine a new one.

This is the type of project where a 3D scanner mated to a CNC Mill would make short work of this.
Alas....   
 

[brian1726]

Thanks Pago,
I will be following you're post's with interest.
cheers...
Brian 

[Joevalk]

I'll be in Melbourne Thursday morning for a few hours. Flying to Adelaide.

[mello dude]

Throwing a note out to Pago....
MCN has had different test riders over the years and back when the Valk was tested, Lee Parks an admitted highly skill braking expert was the rider. He was just an excellent brake guy. Rider skill has plenty to do with performance, more than design. My VFR has linked brakes and despite being more high tech, braked longer than the Valk.----( I admit I redid the whole system to be delinked, with RC51 gear. )

(Now who would want linked brakes on purpose?)

[98valk]

lost this link during computer upgrade luckily I did save it in a different folder.

bolt on 6 puck calipers

http://www.billet.co.uk/index2.html?home.html~mainFrame

[Joevalk]

Proud of them 

[brian1726]

Any updates Joe?
cheers...
Brian 

[Joevalk]

Nope been busy internationally, still sitting in the box.

[pago cruiser]

Update: Found a set of tweaked VTX forks on ebay, separated tubes from bottom with a cutting wheel, torch, and a really big vise.  The lowers are just screwed onto the tubes, but with some tenacious locktight stuff...  Then mounted just the lowers with the 3 pot calipers on my spare front wheel.  The VTX lowers are within 1/8" length of the stock Valk lowers. Axles seem to interchange.  A couple folks have advised that the Valk fork tubes are the same, so (I assume) it should bolt up fine.  Once I get my leading links on the hack squared away, I'll use those tubes with the VTX lowers for the solo Valk.  Still need to play with the linked rear, ala the GL1500; but it looks like that will work. 
 


I will absolutely love having the braking feel and control on the Valk to equal the T1100...

[Joevalk]

What about the Speedo?

[pago cruiser]

What, you want me to do everything?

Could not check.
Speedo drive looks like it will work, in that the spacing between the VTX lower and the Valk wheel, as well as the boss cast into the VTX lower appeared identical. Unfortunately, while I have a spare wheel/tire, I don't have a spare speedo drive.

Next time I pull the Valk front wheel, or if I can find a Valk speedo drive on ebay I'll check.

Just checked ebay.  A company has a NIB Valk speedo drive for $79.99...
An Partzilla has a NIB one for $62.95...

[Joevalk]

lol
Why hell yes
I'm still stuck in England
The last thing I want to is work on my bike when I return home.
I ran into a valk owner here and he had one for sale. He said it had a vtx front end on it from a PO. I didn't get his number as he was in a hurry. I would like to have checked it out.   

[pago cruiser]

Stuck in England? 
Other than warm beer and steak n kidney pie, what's not to like?
They got Stonehenge  .

Actually found a speedo drive earlier, and may even have it in the next couple days.  I'll post a pic when I can bolt the stuff together.

I did check briefly the other day, and there is no cast in "stop" for the speedo drive. Will prolly have to have a heliarc guy put a spot on, and then file to shape.  It sounds harder than it is; I've done it before.

The entire VTX front end will fit, as forks uppers are the same diameter.  But the VTX uppers are 1/2" shorter.  I could not measure the tubes, as the forks I got were pretty badly bent; like, kinked.
 

[Joevalk]

Some raise the fork tubes in the triple trees to lower the front end 3/4". So half inch shorter wouldn't be too bad.

[Paladin528]

All the brakes do is convert rotational energy to heat through friction.  Brake power depends wholly on how much heat the friction material can absorb.  Now A bike like the Valkyrie will (almost) never reach that point where the friction material generates too much heat. And braking efficiency at the pad/rotor will not suffer.  Where the braking efficiency really matters in where the rubber meets the road.  Tire compound, tire pressure, tire temperature and road temperature all have an affect on this.
Taking the OEM tire at OEM pressure recommendations you will achieve the braking numbers.  Raise the tire pressure and those number will begin to grow. Lower the tire or road temperature and again the numbers will begin to grow.  raise those temperatures enough and guess what those numbers will grow.
To achieve the best braking possible you need a combination of the right tire compound, the right temperatures and the right pressures.  The brake pads are more that capable of locking the wheel under hard braking but that is the worst possible braking scenario. (next to a complete brake failure).
If you are running 42 psi in your tires you have already made your braking worse. If you are running a car tire you are making your braking worse (arguably as the compound is harder but the surface area is greater so it may be a wash).
I do know that my Valk is hand over fist better than my VT1100T ever was.

[Kye]

So Pago Cruiser... any update on this? 

I've been thinking of up-speccing my Valk brakes for a long time and stumbled across your thread with GREAT interest. I've been spoiled by better brakes on other bikes too.

[..]

per Motorcycle Consumer News the Valkyrie is still #2 for shortest braking distance of all bikes tested over the yrs.

How recent is that fact?

All bikes? Or just cruisers of a certain weight?

[98valk]

per Motorcycle Consumer News the Valkyrie is still #2 for shortest braking distance of all bikes tested over the yrs.

How recent is that fact?

All bikes? Or just cruisers of a certain weight?

I posted the Valkyrie is #4 as of their testing of all bikes MCN has tested it is dated 1/2015.  go to the link and see.

[Kye]

Valkyries stop awesome. After all these years they still do really well, even compared to newer bikes. But, the brakes can be better. No matter how you look at it, the front calipers are old tech. Late 1990's technology at best. More modern calipers operating on the same wheel discs / tire / chassis / etc could offer better initial grab, feel, fade resistance, etc. That's what I am looking to achieve.

I'm not opposed to some sexier calipers either. 6 pots? Brembo maybe?

[RDKLL]

Since we are using VTX brakes...how about a VTX laced front wheel!
And to premptively answer the inevitible "Why?" I will just say because!