OK I am really pissed now....

[MAD6Gun]

 As you know Twila and I had a great time at inzane. With that being said. Today in the mail there was a letter from  Sioux City IA. I'm thinking oh oh. Sure enough I opened it and found a freaking ticket for speeding on north bound highway 29. 67 in a 55 zone. It seams a camera caught me. They sent the ticket to her because it's her car. So I'm am on the hook for $168.00 for what a cop didn't see. I have a BIG problem with these cameras. In my opinion it is a violation of due process. If they want to catch speeders then put a cop there. When i called the 800 number to ask if this will affect driving records or insurance it was a company NOT the city of Sioux City. So some company is responsible for fines not the city. Absolute bull...

  Say you loaned your car to a friend and they made the offense You are responsible for the ticket. It's bull chit. Sorry for the rant this just pisses me off.......

[Willow]

Passed?  I hope the passer was ticketed as well.   

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

I've had a few camera tickets only good thing they don't put points on you... Mine was all $50.00 ... It's a money racket... Oak Ridge TN didn't even pay for the equipment they split the money with the company that installs the cameras.

[sandy]

If the ticket was addressed to your wife, then all you have to do is have Twila send a photo copy of her license, with picture, proving that she is not the person in the camera pic on the ticket. She is not obligated to expose the ID of the driver.

[Jess from VA]

All due process issues aside, the way it generally works is that if the owner provides them with the ID of the actual driver at the time of the photo, the owner can get out of the ticket.  Otherwise it will be presumed the owner was the driver.

In Feb 1972 I illegally parked all over DC (with a MI plate), and threw all the tickets out (and returned to MI).  I next returned to drive (not live) in DC in 1992.  I never heard a word about it.  I'm sure the statute had run, and by then I had a new car and plate.

I think things have changed.
http://www.carinsurance.com/kb/content26407.aspx

http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2011/03/11/state-speeding-tickets-follow-home/



 

[Oss]

damn

I know I drove faster than that in the Maxima, each way as I was hauling A$$ to get back

Wonder if Enterprise will send me the tix if they got me

[john]

                  somebody is gonna pay ...      
                 ether the registered owner of said vehicle or the borrower/driver ...
it's true the municipality gets a percentage of revenue collected for the owner of the camera equipment  ....  ???
    lets all be careful out there ... the man seest ...    
           they take very good photos ...  mine could not be  denied  

[Robert]

My wife got one for a red light I gave it to the lawyer paid him 75.00 instead of paying the 160.00 ticket fee. I would this time rather pay the lawyer rather than the city and camera company. finally the city where she got that ticket may do away with the cameras. If you pay you support this piracy if you fight it then it costs them money.  If she does swear it was not her then they will ask do you know the person who drove the car. I wonder if you can be compelled to answer. Anyway we could have also got off on that but the lawyer did away with the ticket.

[cookiedough]

shoot, isn't 67 in a 55 normal driving conditions for most drivers, sure seems like it a lot of times?  They must set a limit, say 65 in a 55, and if over that, ticket is sent out?

I drive 63-65 mph tops in a 55 mph speed zone and sometimes I even get passed by some drivers. 

I bet you could fight the amount if you had time to go to court and get it reduced by say 100 bucks or so if it is worth it to you to do?  Hope NO points against your driving record or your rates do not go up, that would suck.

The 'law' has you by the balls it seems like.       I got an 80 dollar ticket for not registering my 10' jon boat using my electric trolling motor in a state park lake by the 'law' who so happened to be zooming up to me, ONLY boat on the small lake enjoying the nice weather camping, etc. minding my own business,  in his GAS outboard on a NON-motorized lake.  You tell me the 'law' is ABOVE the 'law'???  I told him and his wife (along with other choice words) why don't YOU give YOURSELF a ticket since he was in violation as well running his gas outboard on a non-gas outboard lake.   

[Gavin_Sons]

Tell them your license plate was stolen and you now have a new plate and that must have been the thief. 

[Jess from VA]

Human cops may not pull you over until you are 7, 9, 11, 13 over (depending on the posted limit and traffic)..... but cameras and radar probably mail the ticket if you are 5 or more over.  Why turn down automatic money?

These cases are civil in nature, not criminal.  The burden of proof is preponderance of the evidence, not beyond any reasonable doubt.  You can say it wasn't you, but you cannot say it was not your vehicle/plate.  You cannot be compelled to name the driver (even if it was not protected under husband/wife privilege), but if you are not willing to do so, they can (and likely will) find that the preponderance of the evidence is against you.  After all, people have been known to not tell the truth in court from time to time.  And if you take the stand under oath, you are subject to cross examination, under oath.

I have only seen two red light camera pictures.  They were from behind at night, showing no face.  The truck was clear as a bell (as was the red light), but the driver was not clear at all (just a shadowy head).  I suppose if the driver's face is clear, and was not you, you could go and fight the ticket.  You may refuse to tell who the driver was, but you certainly should not commit the felony of perjury stating you have no idea who it was (or some other cockamamie story) while under oath..... to avoid a traffic ticket.  

Who drives out of state with travel, food and motel expense to fight a camera ticket?  With no points or insurance consequences, even if you win you lose.

Except maybe someone protecting their CDL (commercial carrier) license.

Robert, if you got a lawyer for $75, you da' man.    

Gavin, making out a false police report (stolen plate) is a far more serious offense than a speeding ticket (and you knew that).  They go after people who do it.   I once got a guy off this charge, but only because he was falling down drunk when he made the report.  He thought his car had been stolen, but he had left it at the third bar and stumbled along on foot to the fourth. 

[Jopson]

I know back in the uk where I'm from originally, probably 9 out of 10 speeding tickets are from cameras, I fully agree that they are purely a money making scheme...
In some cases they cause more accidents than they prevent with people seeing the cameras and slamming on the brakes and being rear ended. Seen that a few times over there now.

[Stormchase]

Ah sore subject. Just got one in the mail. 61 in a 45. $250. Ouch. It was me in the picture with a priceless look on my face of "busted". Setting up traffic school lol.

[Tailgate Tommy]

damn

I know I drove faster than that in the Maxima, each way as I was hauling A$$ to get back

Wonder if Enterprise will send me the tix if they got me

Evan, I got a photo ticket in Illinois a few years ago in a rental car -they definitely found me and requested their $$.
Tom

[john]

                         "busted". Setting up traffic school .... 

[..]

For what it's worth

http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2015/06/former_traffic_camera_exec_adm.html

[blackvalk]

A guy in California received a ticket in the mail as well.
He sent them a picture of the cash.
They sent him a picture of hand cuffs!

[solo1]

Just pay the damn thing Mark. Don't stew about it. It's a money maker by arseholes

Traffic cameras are crap!  I think that New Haven was asked to put in cameras. If I remember, the answer was no and the cameras wouldn't quite fit where these arseholes were told to put them.

 

[Jess Tolbirt]

dont you have the right to face your accuser in a court of law? request a hearing and if the accuser doesnt show up then your case will be dismissed,,if the camera does show up ask it who is charging you with the crime of speeding..if it does not answer then ask the Judge to drop the charges and file charges against the camera for withholding evidence..I think i could have fun with a charge like that in court if i had the time... stop light cameras are being taken down here because they could not identify the drivers and the drivers refused to pay..

[desertrefugee]

Traffic cameras are very common in Arizona.  But, unless you acknowledge receipt by responding (being served) or are handed the ticket by an officer, you are off the hook once the court date has passed.

I and many folks here have found this out first hand.  (I more than once).   And, yes, it is dropped from your record.   Case closed.

Not saying this would work in your case, but it definitely does here.

Read about it.   Google is your friend.

[R J]

Mark, these poor cities have to meet Payroll someway or another.

Camera's are the easiest way to do that.

[Moonshot_1]

Living in proximity to Sioux City, I know of and have seen the speed cameras on I-29. There are usually 2 units in play, one for the northbound and one for the southbound. The units are on trailers and parked on the shoulder of the interstate.

Aside from all the legal issues, and I don't believe they are a proper enforcement tool, the thing that has always concerned me is that they park these things on the shoulder. My scenario would be someone following a semi truck having a flat and pulls off the road right into these things. There is no warning signs or any indication that these are coming up. Obviously that would defeat the purpose of the camera.

But in any event, they way they are deployed is just dangerous. One of these days someone will smack into one.

[CajunRider]

If she does swear it was not her then they will ask do you know the person who drove the car. I wonder if you can be compelled to answer.

5th amendment says she doesn't have to answer.

[Jess from VA]

If she does swear it was not her then they will ask do you know the person who drove the car. I wonder if you can be compelled to answer.

5th amendment says she doesn't have to answer.

5th Amendment covers self incrimination, not incrimination of others.  In addition, there are husband/wife, priest/penitent, dr./patient, attorney/client privileges.  (And covering up for your attorney's unlawful speeding would not come under the attorney client privilege.   )

[Oss]

dang Jess


I cover folks all the time, no reciprocity ...........     

Sure would have been nice if a member who frequents the
road warned us about those cameras

[Jeff K]

I HATE Iowa. I avoid it at all cost. I have gotten more tickets in Iowa than any other state. In 86 I got pulled over for 57 in a 55. There were three of us sharing the driving, me  From Wis, the other two drivers were from MI, the truck had Ohio plates, all they cared about was collecting the money, they never asked about the truck. Like I said I got more tickets in Iowa than anywhere else... never paid any of them.

[paulclark911]

This reminded me of a time many years ago, we were in California PA, at Fire School. We had been out in the evening and were heading back to our rooms for the night. We were all talking and one guy says hey did you know you just drove through a red light, (crap!) I look in the mirror and I see 2 figures runni9ng to a parked car (police car) so I light them up (my 1974 Plymouth road runner) BEEP BEEP!!! and head for the collage campus where we were staying. I arrived and we all jumped out of the car and were standing around when the cops came speeding in. They said all right who's car is this. I said it was mine. He said were you just driving it. I said no sir (little white lie) we came out here to leave a little bit ago and it was gone!!! We went in side to call and report it stolen and had just walked in side when we heard the horn blow (beep beep) and came running out just as a couple guys were running off. We didn't get a good look at them and then you guys pull in. The cops just shook there heads and said slow down and pay attention!!! (no ticket)!!!   

[fudgie]

damn

I know I drove faster than that in the Maxima, each way as I was hauling A$$ to get back

Wonder if Enterprise will send me the tix if they got me

Went I got pulled over in South Dakota in a rental car, the plates didn't match the car. You maybe in luck! 

[fudgie]

Show up in court. You may beat it. They prob expect you not to since your outta state. Be cheaper in the long run for you.

[DK]

Enter the search string:  "uncollected photo traffic ticket fines" and form your own opinion.

Above all:  If you have any inclination to ignore the ticket, DO NOT acknowledge it by responding in any way whatsoever.

As your research will disclose, many - if not most - cities do not try to collect photo tickets. The programs are actually administered by the equipment companies which share the revenue with the cities. The legal basis of these programs has always been shaky and even more so in recent years. They are very reluctant to risk adverse court rulings so they are generally happy to harvest only the low hanging fruit. They quake in their boots at the thought of a class action lawsuit. (See recent California rulings)

I've been ignoring DC tickets for years with no adverse consequences. However, I don't care about credit ratings as I'm retired, debt free, and do not anticipate ever having to borrow again - haven't checked my credit rating in years so I have no idea if anything has happened there but I've had no adverse action from insurance companies, etc.

Using a lawyer is perhaps the best solution. Their fees are ridicously low as the lawyer can do a tremendous volume of these cases with only clerical help. The government can't go to trial and hope to win unless they make technical people available to testify as to how the device works; studies establishing its reliability; recent repair history; records of calibration and repair and so and so on in each case. You can even go into the experience, education and certifications of the actual persons installing, maintaining, and maintaining the equipment and processing the data obtained. There is no end of where a creative lawyer will go or for how long. Trust me, I'm one too, just not necessarily a creative one.

Also, bear in mind that ignoring a photo ticket could increase the likelihood of being traffic stopped at an inorpitune time (DUI), for instance, if a photo warrant gets entered in your home state.

Again, before ignoring one, do your research and understand the risks as established by the policies of both your home state and the offense state. After doing the research, I think you will see the practicality of hiring one of the specialty lawyers as opposed to simply ignoring it and trusting fate. The only other choice is to pay, which I will not do. These programs are nothing but an unconstitutional scheme to financially support cities and inordinately enrich a bright guy who had a really good idea (for himself).

Dan

Dan

[Valkjerk]

I love this website!

[Hooter]

All due process issues aside, the way it generally works is that if the owner provides them with the ID of the actual driver at the time of the photo, the owner can get out of the ticket.  Otherwise it will be presumed the owner was the driver.

In Feb 1972 I illegally parked all over DC (with a MI plate), and threw all the tickets out (and returned to MI).  I next returned to drive (not live) in DC in 1992.  I never heard a word about it.  I'm sure the statute had run, and by then I had a new car and plate.

I think things have changed.
http://www.carinsurance.com/kb/content26407.aspx

http://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2011/03/11/state-speeding-tickets-follow-home/



 

Jess,

     So help me understand this: We do not have such a system here, town is too small. When I was a     I wrote tickets personally and wouldn't stop someone until they were 10 over or they were being an ass or in an active school zone. Just my system. This is still a moving violation with the right driver I.D. in a pictured or camera issued citation. There are no points? I guess I don't understand that?

[Jess from VA]

Jess,

     So help me understand this: We do not have such a system here, town is too small. When I was a policeman, I wrote tickets personally and wouldn't stop someone until they were 10 over or they were being an ass or in an active school zone.  Just my system. This is still a moving violation with the right driver I.D. in a pictured or camera issued citation.  There are no points?  I guess I don't understand that?

As DK explained, all these camera systems are set up by private corps in partnership with local governments, and proceeds split. This is how many local govts can afford to do it, not having to foot all the overhead out of local budgets. 

Because the identity of the actual driver (as opposed to the vehicle) is often unclear, and other due process issues, they make these camera tickets a civil (rather than criminal) matter, with a lower burden of proof on the govt.  [And note, many jurisdictions have been converting most traffic code violations to civil wrongs (except reckless, DUI, manslaughter, etc) in the last decade to make things easier in court, even if the tickets are written by human policeman, but those still have points.]

So to encourage guilty pleas (acceptance of responsibility), and to make it less painful to plead guilty, to discourage people from hiring attorneys and fighting them in court, the G fine on camera tickets is usually less than an in-person ticket, they assess no points on your DMV record (SOS in MI), and do not notify insurance companies.  AS DK explained, they are in fear of an adverse court ruling (esp in an appellate court) holding the whole system is (State) unconstitutional, or in violation of due process laws and regs.

IE.... just pay us this reduced fine (and do not go to court), and we will not give you points on your record or tattle to your ins company.   From a revenue point of view, this system makes them a ton of money in the big cities.  Just another reason to never visit any big city.

I beat one of these camera tickets (for my wife) for a red light.  She made a lawful right on red, after stopping.... but from the center lane (of three).  Because there was a big flat bed truck broke down in the right lane with it's flashers on, right at the light.  As was clearly shown in the photographs.  (Who the driver was in that photo, was entirely unclear.)  Hundreds of Federal workers had to make that right at that light to get to their jobs in DC at O'dark thirty, and I imagine hundreds of camera tickets were issued.  The camera assumed anyone who entered the intersection from the center lane must have run through the red.  A human cop would have seen what happened, and let everyone make a turn, after stopping and proceeding with due care for pedestrians.

[Wizzard]

you cannot ticket a car. Driver must be ticketed. Make them prove it was you driving. I got one of those 5 years ago in Iowa and ignored it. I sent them a letter and told them to prove I was driving the car. Never heard from them again.

[8Track]

You blokes in the US would bust a vessel here in Australia. The traditional manned speed trap is a rarity these days. Speed cameras are the primary tool used for enforcement of speed violations.

The cameras are not run by private companies, they are owned and operated by the government.

We have fixed speed and red light cameras at many intersections, and also by the side of the road. More insidious is the mobile speed camera mounted within the grille of unmarked vehicles parked on the side of the road.

Even worse are the remotely monitored mobile cameras, hidden under camouflage netting on our favourite twisty roads where a car cannot be parked.

The latest innovation is the two point average speed camera on interstate routes. They take your photo at point A and point B and calculate your average speed between the two points.

There are also cameras designed to read number plates in high volumes and compare them against the vehicle registration database. Anybody driving an unregistered vehicle is immediately fined close to $1,000.

Take a trip anywhere, any time, and you can be sure you'll get photographed doing the wrong thing.

The fines go to the registered owner of the vehicle. The law says the owner must, if he/she claims innocence, sign a statutory declaration, nominating the actual driver of the vehicle. If you're not prepared to dob someone in, you the owner, must cop it!

[Jess from VA]

Brave New World.   

[DK]

As a motorcyclist and firm, longstanding believer in level playing fields, at first blush I don't think I have a problem with what 8Track describes.

It seems that his government has simply decided to enforce the traffic laws as they are written in an accurate, efficient and impartial manner. That's a whole nuther batch of cookies from private business / local government operated speed traps and for that matter, the general state of enforcement of traffic laws in the United States.

I don't really like the fact that it pretty much takes the sport out of driving, but I'll bet it saves lives, including those of many motorcyclists.

My only suggestion is that they add verification of liability insurance coverage to the verification of registration facet of the scheme as described by 8 Track.

Please, please, do not infer from the above idealistic statements that I entertain any serious thought that anything similar would happen in the U.S.  If our authorities began enforcing the existing traffic laws so well, the state houses would be assaulted until the laws were relaxed. Americans do not want fair, impartial, efficient and effective enforcement of traffic laws any more than we want gun control. We like it just like it is, except for the introduction of disruptive technology by the cops.

Dan

[8Track]

Hi DK,

Its true, the prevalence of speed cameras in Australia has slowed down the traffic overall, and perhaps more importantly, the errant speeder, driving dangerously faster than the rest of the traffic is very much a thing of the past.

The extent to which cameras have populated our roads has led to an increased risk factor though. People are now overly concerned about breaking the limit so they are watching their speedometer more and more, at the expense of their situational awareness. This isn't helped by the fact that some jurisdictions allow a tolerance of just 3 kmh over the signed limit. This tolerance is much less than the 10% error tolerance that the speedometers in our cars are built to!

Like it or lump it, there's no arguing that speed enforcement combined with other measures has resulted in less people dying on our roads. In the mid '70s my state averaged 300-400 road deaths a year. Now its down to 100-150. We can't seem to get below 100 though.

Mark

[Jess from VA]

Like it or lump it, there's no arguing that speed enforcement combined with other measures has resulted in less people dying on our roads. In the mid '70s my state averaged 300-400 road deaths a year. Now its down to 100-150. We can't seem to get below 100 though.

Yes they can.  Just have the socialist safety fanatics outlaw motor vehicles, and go back to horses and donkeys and walking.   Some will still die, but less than 100.

If I ever planned to travel down under to spend some time driving/riding around, these facts alone killed that idea.

(I don't mean this as a personal attack Mark, there's too much big brother in the US as well)

[8Track]

Hey Jess,

Just go to the Northern Territory. They have some roads there that have no speed limit at all!

Cheers,

Mark