Uh oh.,timing belt put on wrong. Need help please!

[nogrey]

My friend called me today and told me he had changed timing belts on his 1500 wing.  Started it up and heard clanking noises. Shut her down immediately and called me for help. Any suggestions as to how to set things right? He said he is unable,to rotate the timing wheel more than a few turns before it stops turning. I've never had any problems like this but have followed instructions to the letter making sure timing marks are all lined up, and I've done several.  Any suggestions as to how to get his bike back to alignment marks so I can check the belt timing?

[The emperor has no clothes]

I think it may be too late. Sounds like he's looking at bent valves now.

[R J]

I  2nd what meathead said.   He is done screwed.    Bent valves and etc.

Start pulling heads and replace bent valves, and then put the  heads back on.

Line up timing marks and then correctly install the timing belts.

[Patrick]

Yep, I agree with what the fellas said.  Clanking noises aren't good.

[nogrey]

Thanks guys, I was afraid of that. So, what am I looking at so far as difficulty when pulling heads and replacing valves? I consider myself a fair mechanic, but I've not gone that far before. My personal policy is to take such good care of my equipment that it never comes to this. It's worked so far (57 years). But there's also a first time for everything.
I really appreciate this board and all the help it brings. Thanks again.

[John Schmidt]

If he actually ran the bike for a short time and can no longer turn it over by hand, this is also what might be in store. I sincerely hope not but it's what I ran into on my 1200 when the guy I got it from said "it doesn't want to turn over quite right."  No kidding!!!



If you look closely at the adjacent cylinder, you can see a fresh valve strike on that piston as well. It involved pulling the engine and splitting the case to replace the busted piston and bent rod, honing both cylinders, crossing your fingers the adjacent rod wasn't bent and putting it all back together. The damaged cyl. had some good scores in it and smokes some, I wasn't able to hone it all out but seems to run fine.  Good luck on your "venture."   

[Patrick]

If he actually ran the bike for a short time and can no longer turn it over by hand, this is also what might be in store. I sincerely hope not but it's what I ran into on my 1200 when the guy I got it from said "it doesn't want to turn over quite right."  No kidding!!!



If you look closely at the adjacent cylinder, you can see a fresh valve strike on that piston as well. It involved pulling the engine and splitting the case to replace the busted piston and bent rod, honing both cylinders, crossing your fingers the adjacent rod wasn't bent and putting it all back together. The damaged cyl. had some good scores in it and smokes some, I wasn't able to hone it all out but seems to run fine.  Good luck on your "venture."   

Ouch !  Thats nasty !  Did you post this before ? Well, if so, I missed it.  What a shame, all for just a couple extra minutes of checking.
I'm thinking this is the monster you have almost all back together.  I'd like to see it when you're done.

[John Schmidt]

That's the one Patrick. The guy had changed the belts but they were so loose I removed one without loosening the idler. The other was almost as bad, both had skipped some teeth causing the problem. The left side was the really loose one and that's the end result.

I just hope he doesn't run into that same problem on the Wing his friend asked about, which is entirely possible.

[Patrick]

That's the one Patrick. The guy had changed the belts but they were so loose I removed one without loosening the idler. The other was almost as bad, both had skipped some teeth causing the problem. The left side was the really loose one and that's the end result.

I just hope he doesn't run into that same problem on the Wing his friend asked about, which is entirely possible.

We haven't heard of that with a Valk, yet anyway. But, anything is possible. The worst I think we've had here is a few dented pistons that were still usable.
I've only split one of these cases [mine] because of a pinched ring upon factory assembly [ Honda wouldn't believe it for awhile]. Anyway its not my favorite way of changing pistons.

[nogrey]

Not looking good for the home team. Keeping my fingers crossed and my chin up. I'll know by Tuesday night. I'm going over to take a look. Appreciate the help.

[The emperor has no clothes]

Not looking good for the home team. Keeping my fingers crossed and my chin up. I'll know by Tuesday night. I'm going over to take a look. Appreciate the help.

Yeah it's not great, but it might just be a couple bent valves.

[Redline +]

Any suggestions as to how to set things right?

Hey Nogrey,

You may remember from our many conversations at Inzane that I own an automotive machine shop, I often see this type of damage. You should be able to pull the heads yourself using your repair manual as a guide. Once off, I recommend sending to a GOOD automotive machinist for repairs. There is more to the job than just replacing the bent valves, often the valve guides are damaged as well and need replacing, followed by machining/grinding the seats.

I would do a complete valve grind and resurface the heads while they're off. Replacing the damaged valves, guides and installing a new set of valve seals. If you don't have a GOOD automotive machinist in your area, you can ship them to me, I would be happy to help.

Redline

[Patrick]

Any suggestions as to how to set things right?

Hey Nogrey,

You may remember from our many conversations at Inzane that I own an automotive machine shop, I often see this type of damage. You should be able to pull the heads yourself using your repair manual as a guide. Once off, I recommend sending to a GOOD automotive machinist for repairs. There is more to the job than just replacing the bent valves, often the valve guides are damaged as well and need replacing, followed by machining/grinding the seats.

I would do a complete valve grind and resurface the heads while they're off. Replacing the damaged valves, guides and installing a new set of valve seals. If you don't have a GOOD automotive machinist in your area, you can ship them to me, I would be happy to help.

Redline

    Yep.

Some folks think all that is needed is to stuff in a couple new valves and go. Maybe a few twists with a little lapping compound.
Nothing could be further from what is needed.

[rugguy]

For all the time and cost of new parts and machine shop, it may make sense to find a used, low-mileage motor to replace it with. There are usually a few on ebay that are reasonably priced from reputable parts dealers. Less time and work and faster to get back on the road...just my two cents worth.

[bentwrench]

Pinwall cycles 800.00 to 1000.00 on ebay,

[nogrey]

Any suggestions as to how to set things right?

Hey Nogrey,

You may remember from our many conversations at Inzane that I own an automotive machine shop, I often see this type of damage. You should be able to pull the heads yourself using your repair manual as a guide. Once off, I recommend sending to a GOOD automotive machinist for repairs. There is more to the job than just replacing the bent valves, often the valve guides are damaged as well and need replacing, followed by machining/grinding the seats.

I would do a complete valve grind and resurface the heads while they're off. Replacing the damaged valves, guides and installing a new set of valve seals. If you don't have a GOOD automotive machinist in your area, you can ship them to me, I would be happy to help.

Redline

Wow, really appreciate the offer Cal. We're still working through the "what do I do now?" Part.
I stuck a camera through each of the six spark plug ports and sure enough, valve strikes on all pistons, and pretty sure I saw valve debris in cylinder 4. It seemed like nothing was to lose at this point so set the timing right and put the belts back on. After checking by turning several times by hand to verify the engine was indeed timed correctly, we started the bike (removed valve debris first). It started right up but very apparent that compression was gone.
My question is: Do we need to replace the pistons as well? Don't know how tough they are but the strikes were pretty minimal looking.
Any idea what the machining and valve replacement would cost?

Sure appreciate this board.

[nogrey]

For all the time and cost of new parts and machine shop, it may make sense to find a used, low-mileage motor to replace it with. There are usually a few on ebay that are reasonably priced from reputable parts dealers. Less time and work and faster to get back on the road...just my two cents worth.

We're considering all options at this point. It get's a little complicated: Bike is only worth about $3k (running). Replacing the engine at $1K and the fact that it's a fairly big job (I've never done it before). Getting a good engine in the first place! Fear of getting a "not so good" engine and only finding out once it's all put back together. Just a myriad of questions that my friend needs to answer. We told him to take a little time and let it settle. He's still pretty bummed that he did this to himself. Simple mistake, but a costly one.

[rhinor61]

Nogrey..
well the damage is done...

so we all can learn from another mistake...

What did he do or not do to lose timing while changing the belts?

I did mine belt replacement 35k miles ago and follow the tech guide without any issues...

just thinking, maybe we can prevent another loss in the future.

John

[nogrey]

Nogrey..
well the damage is done...

so we all can learn from another mistake...

What did he do or not do to lose timing while changing the belts?

I did mine belt replacement 35k miles ago and follow the tech guide without any issues...

just thinking, maybe we can prevent another loss in the future.

John

John: We're telling him the same thing. Just move forward. Don't beat yourself up about it. Still, we all know how we feel when we do this kind of thing.

I wasn't there when this occurred so am not absolutely certain, but he says that he lined the timing gear to the timing mark as identified in the book. He did not know or read far enough to check that the two head gears also were lined up with the "-up-" marks also aligned to their spots. Thing is, both sides were badly out of time. Even if you didn't line up anything, one could conceivably replace the belts, and so long as nothing moved, the timing would be OK.  Of course, we don't do it that way because things can and do move, and we need the reference marks to let us know. So I'm not certain what all went on there. He had someone else helping him and, well, sometimes things happen.
I was able to correct the timing problem a lot easier than I expected, but as you say, the damage is done. My friend just got this bike paid for and really doesn't have the funds to replace it right now. Doesn't have another motorcycle and was getting it ready for a trip in August.

[Redline +]

Any suggestions as to how to set things right?

Hey Nogrey,

You may remember from our many conversations at Inzane that I own an automotive machine shop, I often see this type of damage. You should be able to pull the heads yourself using your repair manual as a guide. Once off, I recommend sending to a GOOD automotive machinist for repairs. There is more to the job than just replacing the bent valves, often the valve guides are damaged as well and need replacing, followed by machining/grinding the seats.

I would do a complete valve grind and resurface the heads while they're off. Replacing the damaged valves, guides and installing a new set of valve seals. If you don't have a GOOD automotive machinist in your area, you can ship them to me, I would be happy to help.

Redline

My question is: Do we need to replace the pistons as well? Don't know how tough they are but the strikes were pretty minimal looking.
Any idea what the machining and valve replacement would cost?

Typically, the pistons would be OK, but if there is any indentation, they should be replaced, cast aluminum doesn't bend well.

Difficult to quote labor charges without knowing the extent of the damage. I would guess $350 - $500 for the pair including; cleaning, pressure test castings, valve guides as necessary, complete valve grind and resurface.

Your cost on the parts is the same as mine, not cheap!

Personally, I would rather pull the heads than install an unknown engine. I'm not soliciting the job, I've got plenty to do, just saying changing heads is easier than changing engines.

Redline

[nogrey]

Appreciate the help Cal. I know you're not soliciting. It's good to have a friend with your skill set. Replacing the engine is not my first choice either. I'm trying to figure a way to get my friend going without breaking his piggy bank. Still cogitating.

[indybobm]

Either way, you will not know until you pull the heads off. Then you can make a decision. At the least you will probably have some bent valves, maybe some damaged pistions. I did a quick search on Valkyrie Head and come up with 5 for under $100.00 each from various people.

[Patrick]

You are going to have damaged pistons, but only a good look will show whether they can be used. As said earlier, usually they can be.

It would be nice to know just how many teeth the belts were out of time.

[O-B-1]

I removed all the spark plugs when replacing mine. Double-checked all the timing settings before removal & after removal.

I then SLOWLY turned over the engine BY H ANDto insure nothing was out of time and colliding in the engine.

[Jersey]

Well, I fell victim to the "one-tooth" demon.  Went to replace the timing belts and THOUGHT I did a proper job of aligning, but apparently didn't. I guess It was one tooth off on the right side. Checked compression and the #2, #5 cylinders are only holding 90 psi... the rest range from 120-150.  I'm assuming I bent some valves.

My view is if I have to repair a few valves, might as well just do them all.  Also, I have a VERY good machine shop to do this job.

Can use some help from those who have had this happen.  Need advice.

1. Is it overdoing it to replace all Valves (intake/exh)?   Or just those that are shown to be bent?
2. is it cheaper in the end to just swap in a used engine? Considering they go from $600-900 generally.

3. If I swap in a used engine... does it have to be an Interstate 99, or are any of the GL1500 Valkyries good?

I have to say, feeling pretty crappy this happened.  Could use some good advice so I can set a plan in motion and get back on the road.

Thanks,
Jersey

[nogrey]

Just replaced timing belts today on a friends bike. I know it is too late, but always good practice to turn the engine over by hand using a wrench before starting after a belt change. Not chastising you, as you must feel terrible about this. Tough lesson to learn.
Contact Cal (Redline) on this forum. He can direct you concerning re-doing your heads as he does it for a living and is very good. He lives in Seattle but would be well worth your time to confer with him. If you crashed your heads your pistons are probably also dented. I helped another fellow who did this same thing to his 1500 goldwing. His pistons were pitted and valves bent. Since the net worth of his '85 wing was about $1000 tops before the issue, my solution was to purchse a set of used heads off ebay and replace them. Did nothing to repair the pistons. That was about 20K miles ago and he is still going strong.
I wish you well brother. Sorry for your dilemma.

[gordonv]

What I have read, is one tooth shouldn't be an issue.

I take it you have now cranked the engine over, at least to get compression.

Re-do the job.

My GL1100 was off one tooth. No problems, or at least no difference in performance. Never did take a compression tester to it.

[Cracker Jack]

I agree, one tooth should not damage the engine. Before you start major engine surgery, correct the valve timing and redo the compression test. The valve timing could affect the compression reading.

Tell us a little more. Was there engine noise when first started after the belt change? How is the running, missing, smooth?

You may have the problem you suspect, but I believe more investigation is warranted before a major teardown.

[Jersey]

I did do hand turn a number of times, but only according to the manual... rotated it out about 180deg cw and returned ccw rechecked timing marks.  Did this a few times to line it up.  This was after pulling the belt and making sure to not move anything.  Also, I counted the teeth on the belt as a double check and recounted after.  
Yeah, a real bummer.

When I first turn it over, it sounded like it was out of balance and ran rough, like bad gas was in there (obviously not the case)  Ran it for only a few seconds.  Did hear some noises, but difficult to describe accurately.  Wouldn't rule out the worst...

I'm trying to decide if a rebuild is worth it or just swap in a used engine from a reputable company.  Looking at the cost of each valve, machine shop, possible damage to pistons, I'm thinking the rebuild cost would be prohibitive.

[nogrey]

I did do hand turn a number of times, but only according to the manual... rotated it out about 180deg cw and returned ccw rechecked timing marks.  Did this a few times to line it up.  This was after pulling the belt and backing sure to not move anything.  Also, I counted the teeth on the belt as a double check and recounted after.   
Yeah, a real bummer.

When I first turn it over, it sounded like it was out of balance and ran rough, like bad gas was in there (obviously not the case)  Ran it for only a few seconds.  Did hear some noises, but difficult to describe accurately.  Wouldn't rule out the worst...

I'm trying to decide if a rebuild is worth it or just swap in a used engine from a reputable company.  Looking at the cost of each valve, machine shop, possible damage to pistons, I'm thinking the rebuild cost would be prohibitive.

Bad experience for sure. Won't hurt to contact Redline, BigBF or Attic Rat. Even if it turns out to be cost prohibitive, they will most certainly have good information for you. Real sorry this happened to you. Hope it works out for you.

[Jersey]

Appreciate all the compassion on this.  Definitely hurts to have happen.  Reached out to Redline, waiting on response, but frankly really leaning toward swapping engines.

My chief concern is the unknown damage or stuff I can't see.   Who's to say a piston that doesn't show a big mark might not crack 20k down the road... don't want this becoming another problem 12 months from now while I'm in the middle a crosscountry ride.

[gordonv]

OK, onto another engine.

Unless you are willing to wait on riding till you may need to take an engine fully apart and rebuilt, start pricing them out.

I will look at a GW GL1500 with the reverse, if I was ever to need another engine. I expect that my Valk heads could go on the GW block, and give me the better HP. I've seen them as low as $200.

[Jersey]

The Reverse sounds interesting.  Would probably stay with stock swap.  While more HP is always nicer, I'm ok with a direct replacement...

Thanks for the idea!

[da prez]

  Contact atticrat and pick his brain. You may be surprised.


                                         da prez

[Jersey]

Update:

So had the opportunity to talk with Cal.  Based on the situation as it occurs, he recommended trying the valve fix first.  I did pull the heads and discovered... well, not much at all happened to the pistons.  Only on 2 of them could I even see a very slight mark.  So, looks like it's a repair and not a replace situation.  Much easier to repair.

Will update as it goes.
Thanks for the advice everyone!

[nogrey]

Update:

So had the opportunity to talk with Cal.  Based on the situation as it occurs, he recommended trying the valve fix first.  I did pull the heads and discovered... well, not much at all happened to the pistons.  Only on 2 of them could I even see a very slight mark.  So, looks like it's a repair and not a replace situation.  Much easier to repair.

Will update as it goes.
Thanks for the advice everyone!

Glad you talked to Cal, and really glad for how little damage. I talked to Cal when my friend crashed his valves and he is very knowledgable. Let us know how it goes but it sounds like you're on your way. 

[Jersey]

Another update:

The machinist said no valve were bent, but that two of them are burnt.  He noticed the plugs in the egr ports and said that if the carbs weren't adjusted when this were installed then the cylinders should run lean, burn hotter and increase the pressure.  He indicated seeing this before.

So, good news is ol' Jersey still knows how to time an engine!   Not so bad. Heads are getting reconditioned, new cuts and seals, shows to still be flat and in great shape!  Will chock this up to a 60k refresh.

THANKS so much to everyone and Cal for the great advice!!