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Oldnick
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« on: November 05, 2015, 09:11:16 PM » |
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Hi guys. I will ask this on a trike forum as well, but I was interested in the ideas of Valk bike riders. I have been practising heavy braking on my Valk trike. By heavy I mean to the point where the tyres are just, just scrunching before skidding. So as hard as as I can. A couple of questions if I may. Firstly I was surprised by how easy it was to lock the front wheel, if it was not rear-assisted. Somebody commented (here I think) that being a trike it would be like that. But since this is bascially a bike with a rear end and not a whole new frame with the motor slung out the back, I would have thought there was still a fair bit of weight on the front. The wheel base _is_ longer, which I realise will affect things. Even the rear axle and diff are only _on_ the rear axle and not behind it and the engine is still forward. What's the Valk like as a bike, for front wheel braking? I know that proper braking consists of using the rear to throw the weight on the front, as well as aiding braking, but I was just trying it out to see and I am a bit puzzled. I will add that with 265 rear tyres, pumped at about 12psi, they grip like the proverbial to a woolly blanket!  Secondly, under really heavy braking, I find myself diving right or left (no preference, so it's probably not the rear brakes causing it). I can see that throwing weight on the front forks is going to bring the front down and ruin the rake and trail for directional stability, but again, what the Valk like as a bike under really heavy brakes? There is no play in the forks or anything like that. Thanks for any input. Nick |
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Nick
May God save us from believers!
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Gryphon Rider
Member
Posts: 5227
2000 Tourer
Calgary, Alberta
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« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2015, 06:21:42 AM » |
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The weight added when going from bike to trike is lower than the previous centre of mass (a.k.a. centre of gravity), and thus will reduce the effect of weight transfer to the front wheel, especially when the rear brakes are not applied. Also, the weight added is virtually all at the rear wheels. So you are asking the front wheel to stop more mass, without the benefit of more weight being added to the front wheel during braking; the front tire's contact patch is being asked to do more work with less ability to do it.
I don't know what you mean by diving right or left.
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« Last Edit: November 06, 2015, 06:23:40 AM by Gryphon Rider »
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Oldnick
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« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2015, 06:42:51 AM » |
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Yeah makes sense man. Ican actually feel that...that and the longer wheelbase. Thanks
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Nick
May God save us from believers!
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98valk
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« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2015, 06:52:36 AM » |
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Agree with GR.
the Valkyrie to this day is still in the top 5 for best 60-0 mph stopping distance. OEM pads are sintered bronze HH rated best for stopping power. so if u want to stop lock up try pads that are rated H or go to organic pads. skidding means loss of friction which means much less stopping power.
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1998 Std/Tourer, 2007 DR200SE, 1981 CB900C 10speed
1973 Duster 340 4-speed rare A/C, 2001 F250 4x4 7.3L, 6sp
"Our Constitution was made only for a Moral and Religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the goverment of any other."
John Adams 10/11/1798
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John Schmidt
Member
Posts: 15223
a/k/a Stuffy. '99 I/S Valk Roadsmith Trike
De Pere, WI (Green Bay)
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« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 07:38:30 AM » |
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I'm surprised at the 12psi for 265 tires. Why so low? That would tend to make the tires run hotter and shorten the life, and greatly affect handling. That's barely enough pressure for the tires to gain their normal profile, let alone cause a rather mushy ride.
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vanagon40
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« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2015, 08:00:42 AM » |
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I'm not sure this applies to three wheelers, but the best advice is never use the front brake. You will be thrown over the handlebars and have to lay the bike down.  |
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98valk
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« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2015, 08:14:42 AM » |
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I'm not sure this applies to three wheelers, but the best advice is never use the front brake. You will be thrown over the handlebars and have to lay the bike down. isn't that from the HD owners manual? |
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1998 Std/Tourer, 2007 DR200SE, 1981 CB900C 10speed
1973 Duster 340 4-speed rare A/C, 2001 F250 4x4 7.3L, 6sp
"Our Constitution was made only for a Moral and Religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the goverment of any other."
John Adams 10/11/1798
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Bighead
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« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2015, 04:02:25 PM » |
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I really hope that the laughing fella means you are joking  |
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1997 Bumble Bee
1999 Interstate (sold)
2016 Wing
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Oldnick
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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2015, 05:53:50 PM » |
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I'm surprised at the 12psi for 265 tires. Why so low? That would tend to make the tires run hotter and shorten the life, and greatly affect handling. That's barely enough pressure for the tires to gain their normal profile, let alone cause a rather mushy ride.
The tyres look OK and hold profile without sag or bulge. The previous owner rode this triked over 100,000 Km and he suggested the pressure. They only carry just over 100Kg each tyre. |
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Nick
May God save us from believers!
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Michvalk
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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2015, 06:24:20 PM » |
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Maybe you could use a car tire on the front, as I have seen many do, and get better front brake performance. Trikes don't lean, so they won't need the rounded profile tires  |
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Oldnick
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« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2015, 06:59:54 PM » |
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Maybe you could use a car tire on the front, as I have seen many do, and get better front brake performance. Trikes don't lean, so they won't need the rounded profile tires Yeah I have seena lot of discussion about this. One interesting thing that was pointed out was, the trike's front wheel _does_ lean, because of the rake of the forks, especially if you have a chopper style trike, or a rake kit. From what I read that can produce some "interesting" results. The tyre I have on my trike is one that was"voted" the best for trikes and was actually designed for trikes. It's not a problem, as I soon picked up the idea of lots of rear braking and now I can pull up PDQ. I was just interested. |
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Nick
May God save us from believers!
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Oldnick
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« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2015, 07:03:32 PM » |
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I don't know what you mean by diving right or left.
Sorry. Missed that bit. When I really pull down the speed, I find that the trike tends to pull to the left or right. It's not uneven braking, because it can go either way. Solid axle trike tend to move about a bit because of road contours,and I think that may be it. So yeah you have probably not felt it on a bike. I was just checking. I can control it, but it's something I have to be aware of. Nick |
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Nick
May God save us from believers!
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Michvalk
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« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2015, 08:43:47 PM » |
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Maybe you could use a car tire on the front, as I have seen many do, and get better front brake performance. Trikes don't lean, so they won't need the rounded profile tires Yeah I have seena lot of discussion about this. One interesting thing that was pointed out was, the trike's front wheel _does_ lean, because of the rake of the forks, especially if you have a chopper style trike, or a rake kit. From what I read that can produce some "interesting" results. The tyre I have on my trike is one that was"voted" the best for trikes and was actually designed for trikes. It's not a problem, as I soon picked up the idea of lots of rear braking and now I can pull up PDQ. I was just interested. Yeah, that's probably true. The only trike I have ever ridden had a car type tire on the front. It was an old Harley servicar. I'm not sure that on that thing that any tire would improve handling |
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Oldnick
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« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2015, 02:44:50 AM » |
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HAH! Yeah I saw one for zsale when I was looking for a trike,. I suppose _somebody_ has to love them! They actually had suspension models, then made them a hard-tail because they were awful with suspension.
Nick
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Nick
May God save us from believers!
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WintrSol
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« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2015, 07:52:17 AM » |
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I don't know what you mean by diving right or left.
Sorry. Missed that bit. When I really pull down the speed, I find that the trike tends to pull to the left or right. It's not uneven braking, because it can go either way. Solid axle trike tend to move about a bit because of road contours,and I think that may be it. So yeah you have probably not felt it on a bike. I was just checking. I can control it, but it's something I have to be aware of. Nick I get that when pulling away from a stop, especially with a heavy trailer. Different pressure on the bars, due to using the clutch, or not, when braking is likely the source, as how I control clutch and throttle on startup seems to be the cause for me. I probably do it with all my bikes, but it's a lot more prevalent with one that weights 400lbs more than the others. |
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98 Honda Valkyrie GL1500CT Tourer
Photo of my FIL Jack, in honor of his WWII service
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Oldnick
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« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2015, 03:19:32 PM » |
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OK yeah, makes sense. As I brake I am changing gears or at least pulling in the clutch to stop stalling and with the added pressure of the trike rear end....
Nick
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Nick
May God save us from believers!
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mark81
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« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2015, 04:19:43 AM » |
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i'm going through the responses here and seems like use of brake and clutch is the most likely culprit. You said you also posted on the trike forum, did they have any useful insights with their experience on 3 wheels?
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1997 Honda Valkyrie 1981 Honda CB750 Custom  |
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Oldnick
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« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2015, 06:15:23 AM » |
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i'm going through the responses here and seems like use of brake and clutch is the most likely culprit. You said you also posted on the trike forum, did they have any useful insights with their experience on 3 wheels?
I am going to try braking without clutch (stall engine!...hate it) and also using only rear brake and see what happens. My biggy right now (I hope ) is the rego exam for the girl tomorrow....I have checked everything I can think of and I am scared there will be something silly...or even worse major! hmmm...trike forum.....a lecture on braking technique (I rode a bike for 20 years with no car) and the idea that it may be the rear brakes, mismatched. I need to consider that, although I have had the trike pull both ways. That _may_ be because I knew what was coming and over-compensated. Need to check. The big thing for me is that a trike with a solid swing arm is _always_ in a state of moving from side to side due to lumps in the road. Heavy braking will cause the front wheel to pull to the direction it's momentarily headed anyway. As with frontg wheel shake on trikes, it may just be a thing the rider learns to not notice. I play with kayaks and some are very tender. After a while your body just deals with it. Need to practice. Nick |
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Nick
May God save us from believers!
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Oldnick
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« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2015, 08:39:12 PM » |
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Well guys Pumped up the tyre from 25 PSI to 40 PSI and pretty much solved the diving, low speed vibration etc. So.Sorry and thanks for all the input Nick |
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Nick
May God save us from believers!
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