K&N Air Filter

[Robert]

One user replied that his analysis had

 above average silicon levels,

 which dropped to below average when he switched from a K&N to an OEM air filter. 

  Even worse, I've read some posts about the filter oil drying out when a K&N is left in a bike for years.  Surely that makes those filters even less effective.

Ok so what damage did you notice on your engine or the engine with above average, (not drastically elevated readings) silicon readings happened? Also please tell me how this looks in the engine and what you noticed in performance to cause concern. I am also interested in how many miles and in how many vehicles do you have a K&N?

Just curious.

[F6Dave]

One user replied that his analysis had

 above average silicon levels,

 which dropped to below average when he switched from a K&N to an OEM air filter. 

  Even worse, I've read some posts about the filter oil drying out when a K&N is left in a bike for years.  Surely that makes those filters even less effective.

Ok so what damage did you notice on your engine or the engine with above average, (not drastically elevated readings) silicon readings happened? Also please tell me how this looks in the engine and what you noticed in performance to cause concern. I am also interested in how many miles and in how many vehicles do you have a K&N?

Just curious.

Robert, this thread was started over 3 years ago, and none of us can remember all of the old posts.  But I did answer your questions some time ago.

Regarding engine damage:

In the real world a lower efficiency filter may not make a difference.  GL1500 and GL1800 engines can last hundreds of thousands of miles with minimal maintenance.  Since the vast majority of owners never come close to wearing these motors out, some extra dirt may only show up as higher silica contamination in an oil analysis, and barely measurable wear on internal parts.  With this in mind, when I bought my F6B I seriously considered trying a K&N again.  Since a Goldwing filter change is so difficult, a longer service interval would be attractive even at the expense of more dirt in the engine.  But if an oiled filter like K&N traps less dirt, and also clogs up faster than a paper filter, it's hard to justify the cost or effort .  I'll stick with the OEM Honda filters.

And, have I used a K&N in the past?  Absolutely!

I've used both K&N and another 'serviceable' oiled air filter in the past, on bikes I rode for nearly 100K combined miles.  So I've had several opportunities to clean, dry, and re-oil these things.

[Robert]

In the real world a lower efficiency filter may not make a difference.  GL1500 and GL1800 engines can last hundreds of thousands of miles with minimal maintenance.  Since the vast majority of owners never come close to wearing these motors out, some extra dirt may only show up as higher silica contamination in an oil analysis, and barely measurable wear on internal parts.  With this in mind, when I bought my F6B I seriously considered trying a K&N again.  Since a Goldwing filter change is so difficult, a longer service interval would be attractive even at the expense of more dirt in the engine. 


But if an oiled filter like K&N traps less dirt, and also clogs up faster than a paper filter, it's hard to justify the cost or effort .  I'll stick with the OEM Honda filters.

And, have I used a K&N in the past?  Absolutely!

Thanks, and I agree with pretty much all that you said, I wish there was a way to know for sure if it does clog up faster since we are both have the same idea on this and like you its the real reason I use the K&N.

 I really wish there was a real world test of the filter and not all the good vs bad tests. Its hard to separate truth from fiction in some of these tests. I do not deny any of the results but they just need to be put into perspective which was the reason for me to keep going on with this. To many times it sounds like chicken little sky is falling rather than the real world, since most of the hype either way is ramped up way to much.

[F6Dave]

In the real world a lower efficiency filter may not make a difference.  GL1500 and GL1800 engines can last hundreds of thousands of miles with minimal maintenance.  Since the vast majority of owners never come close to wearing these motors out, some extra dirt may only show up as higher silica contamination in an oil analysis, and barely measurable wear on internal parts.  With this in mind, when I bought my F6B I seriously considered trying a K&N again.  Since a Goldwing filter change is so difficult, a longer service interval would be attractive even at the expense of more dirt in the engine. 


But if an oiled filter like K&N traps less dirt, and also clogs up faster than a paper filter, it's hard to justify the cost or effort .  I'll stick with the OEM Honda filters.

And, have I used a K&N in the past?  Absolutely!

Thanks, and I agree with pretty much all that you said, I wish there was a way to know for sure if it does clog up faster since we are both have the same idea on this and like you its the real reason I use the K&N.

 I really wish there was a real world test of the filter and not all the good vs bad tests. Its hard to separate truth from fiction in some of these tests. I do not deny any of the results but they just need to be put into perspective which was the reason for me to keep going on with this. To many times it sounds like chicken little sky is falling rather than the real world, since most of the hype either way is ramped up way to much.

What convinced me (as a former K&N user) were the ISO 5011 tests run by Arlen Spicer.  These were done on an expensive ($285,000 a decade ago) and precise machine that flows test dust (with a specific mix of particle sizes) at a constant rate until a filter clogs up.  The restriction is measured during the entire run, as is the weight of the dust both trapped, and passed, by the filter.  These tests are posted on multiple locations around the web, including here:  https://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html

I don't know how difficult it is to change the filter on your new Valkyrie, but I suspect it's not as easy as on the old 1500s.  On my F6B it's a real pain.  Below is a picture of all the parts you remove to access the filter.  I'd rather not go through this 3 hour ordeal very often, so filter life is important.

I'd also like to know my filter's condition so I could only change it when necessary.  I've been thinking of installing an air filter restriction gauge, which warns you when the restriction begins to increase.  Baldwin, Wix, and K&N all sell these for reasonable prices.  I'll post some pictures if I do.

ALL of this has to be removed to replace a GL1800 air filter!

[98valk]

[/quote]

What convinced me (as a former K&N user) were the ISO 5011 tests run by Arlen Spicer.  These were done on an expensive ($285,000 a decade ago) and precise machine that flows test dust (with a specific mix of particle sizes) at a constant rate until a filter clogs up.  The restriction is measured during the entire run, as is the weight of the dust both trapped, and passed, by the filter.  These tests are posted on multiple locations around the web, including here:  https://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html



I'd also like to know my filter's condition so I could only change it when necessary.  I've been thinking of installing an air filter restriction gauge, which warns you when the restriction begins to increase.  Baldwin, Wix, and K&N all sell these for reasonable prices.  I'll post some pictures if I do.


[/quote]

I posted a link to the spicer test earlier in this thread, and it agrees with the early k&n SAE tests that k&n used to use for their advertising until people such as myself read the SAE test requirements and pointed out all of the dirt being let in and that their high filtration number was at the end of the test when the filter was almost clogged near zero airflow. Also going way back when K&N first started offering filters for automobiles they used a compact chevy which had an undersized air cleaner assembly and filter compared to what the engine needed at redline. so of course putting a low restriction air filer made extra HP. Even Nascar uses a fiberglass airfilter during qualifying put during a race do not use it.

The restriction gauge is the only way to know. I set up a separate OEM airbox to test OEM filters for my 1500 Valkyrie. using an CFM meter, there was zero difference btwn a new filter and one that had 24k miles on it.  I know from other info yrs ago most vehicle air filters last at least 50k miles before restriction unless one is always on dusty back roads or construction sites. All the OEMS now use the 12k change out since they don't know where and or how the vehicle will be used.

"Testing of aftermarket airfilters on the RC51 has yielded poor results. Typically there are no real world benefits to aftermarket filters for the RC51 as small hp gains can be obtained on topend, but only with a trade off for mid-range hp.  Truth be told almost every sportbike in the last 20 years has had losses in power at some point in the rev range or even throughout it from the addition of K&N, EMGO, BMC filters etc... There are exceptions to that rule, but I will save delving into those anomalies for a different time and place.

Since this article was originally written we've also had multiple issues with drivability on the Honda 919 that resulted in small stumbles and hesitations at lower rpms. None of these were able to be ironed out with mapping changes, but simply swapping out the K&N filter & reinstalling the OEM air filter instantly fixed the problem. I don't think much else needs to be said on that..."
http://rc51.org/airfilt.htm

[Robert]

This is from the bottom of the page of the article you provided I am not sure why this is at the bottom of the page and it pretty much sums up my experience with K&N. So I posted it below at the bottom of this post.

I have also on my 1500 in re jetting it have to compensate for the K&N without using the foam. The 1500 air box uses the vacuum in the box at 3/4 to full throttle to pull fuel from the carbs. Even at cruise the air filter itself provides just enough restriction to feel the difference if you switch to K&N. Causing in some bikes a lean condition that is able to be felt and actually translates into a small stumble or hesitation. This is the reason that cutting a hole in the 1500 air box does not work so well. Its a trade off really due to emissions. If you cut the hole in the air box install a K&N you will have to go up quite a bit on the main jet in order to get a good full throttle acceleration. The K&N on these bikes makes a significant difference in fuel mixture in which it will actually lean out the fuel mixture since the air flow is more. Once compensated for the bike opens up quite a bit.

I was actually surprised after I installed the K&N to experience this since it was just an air filter install. But after the mods of cutting the hole, rejetting, the K&N filter and timing advance the bike power was better and there was better MPG. The timing advance was done BEFORE the K&N the rejetting was done AFTER the K&N, not to think that this was the cause of the change in power and MPG.

The 1800 does not require resetting since the O2 sensors will compensate and keep it on track.

My experience with Mass sensors is about the same as below, but even then honestly I have seen Mass sensors go with standard filters also.


  Article here:

BTW because someone always brings up the fact that they use K&N filters in their car or truck & they do work under those conditions I must add that I too use K&N filters in my vehicles & they do show definite increases in power & throttle response, but I have also had problems with my Mass Airflow Sensors getting dirty and I can tell you from years of testing K&N and other high flow filters that they do indeed let a lot of debris past the filter media that an OEM type paper filter would catch. Additionally the oil from the K&N filters always gets shed off and mixed with that debris making a sticky mess. Back to the point though cars are different from current bikes in that cars have a closed loop Fi system that can compensate for the air flow variance whereas most bikes use an open loop Fi system that cannot automatically compensate. Adding supporting evidence to my theories of airbox turbulence you will be interested to know that K&N has developed many different types of turbulence diffuser inserts for many different makes of cars & trucks that lessen intake turbulence when using their filters to increase performance. So far nobody has developed a way to even test for turbulence on motorcycle induction systems let alone cure it.

[Robert]

In the real world a lower efficiency filter may not make a difference.  GL1500 and GL1800 engines can last hundreds of thousands of miles with minimal maintenance.  Since the vast majority of owners never come close to wearing these motors out, some extra dirt may only show up as higher silica contamination in an oil analysis, and barely measurable wear on internal parts.  With this in mind, when I bought my F6B I seriously considered trying a K&N again.  Since a Goldwing filter change is so difficult, a longer service interval would be attractive even at the expense of more dirt in the engine.  


But if an oiled filter like K&N traps less dirt, and also clogs up faster than a paper filter, it's hard to justify the cost or effort .  I'll stick with the OEM Honda filters.

And, have I used a K&N in the past?  Absolutely!

Thanks, and I agree with pretty much all that you said, I wish there was a way to know for sure if it does clog up faster since we are both have the same idea on this and like you its the real reason I use the K&N.

 I really wish there was a real world test of the filter and not all the good vs bad tests. Its hard to separate truth from fiction in some of these tests. I do not deny any of the results but they just need to be put into perspective which was the reason for me to keep going on with this. To many times it sounds like chicken little sky is falling rather than the real world, since most of the hype either way is ramped up way to much.

What convinced me (as a former K&N user) were the ISO 5011 tests run by Arlen Spicer.  These were done on an expensive ($285,000 a decade ago) and precise machine that flows test dust (with a specific mix of particle sizes) at a constant rate until a filter clogs up.  The restriction is measured during the entire run, as is the weight of the dust both trapped, and passed, by the filter.  These tests are posted on multiple locations around the web, including here:  https://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html

I don't know how difficult it is to change the filter on your new Valkyrie, but I suspect it's not as easy as on the old 1500s.  On my F6B it's a real pain.  Below is a picture of all the parts you remove to access the filter.  I'd rather not go through this 3 hour ordeal very often, so filter life is important.

I'd also like to know my filter's condition so I could only change it when necessary.  I've been thinking of installing an air filter restriction gauge, which warns you when the restriction begins to increase.  Baldwin, Wix, and K&N all sell these for reasonable prices.  I'll post some pictures if I do.

ALL of this has to be removed to replace a GL1800 air filter!

 

Thanks for posting that, the 1500 was not great but my 1800 is almost the same as yours just a bit easier. I found that I can get it done pretty quickly by taking 4 pins out of the pods. Slipping them off  ,taking off the side covers, seat, gas tank cover and then it lifts pretty quickly. I was happy to see the connections to the tank were easy to do.

[ledany]

Thanks for the pic Robert ! 

[Robert]

Thanks for the pic Robert ! 

Your welcome if I can find more I will do it.

[ledany]

Don't bother Robert, I've found this old video I've already seen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhwo3EiayY0

even though I'm not interested in a Power Comander (got my first speed limit ticket two weeks ago, in my daily trip  ).

[Skinhead]

I recently picked up a very neglected interstate that I'm nursing back to health.  It sat out side for over a year and has 77,700 miles on it.  It had a K&N filter on it, and when I opened up the air box, the foam pre-filter was severely deteriorated and came off in several pieces.  That was enough for me to realize they are a waste of money and will not provide any benefit in a properly engineered, fuel injected engine.  This is because as Robert stated, the air sensors in the induction system and the O2 sensor in the exhaust system measure the air per cylinder that goes into the engine, and inject the correct amount of fuel to be almost completely burned by the available amount of O2.  This is a closed loop system that provides feedback, based on the O2 system in the exhaust, and is constantly adjusted to provide a stoichiometric mixture.

With carburated systems, the amount of fuel delivered is metered through orifices and is a compromise that results in higher emissions and possibly less than peak fuel economy, compared to a fuel injection system.  Since the 1500 is carburated, and the K&N does not filter as well as paper, I'll stick with OEM.

[F6Dave]

In the real world a lower efficiency filter may not make a difference.  GL1500 and GL1800 engines can last hundreds of thousands of miles with minimal maintenance.  Since the vast majority of owners never come close to wearing these motors out, some extra dirt may only show up as higher silica contamination in an oil analysis, and barely measurable wear on internal parts.  With this in mind, when I bought my F6B I seriously considered trying a K&N again.  Since a Goldwing filter change is so difficult, a longer service interval would be attractive even at the expense of more dirt in the engine.  


But if an oiled filter like K&N traps less dirt, and also clogs up faster than a paper filter, it's hard to justify the cost or effort .  I'll stick with the OEM Honda filters.

And, have I used a K&N in the past?  Absolutely!

Thanks, and I agree with pretty much all that you said, I wish there was a way to know for sure if it does clog up faster since we are both have the same idea on this and like you its the real reason I use the K&N.

 I really wish there was a real world test of the filter and not all the good vs bad tests. Its hard to separate truth from fiction in some of these tests. I do not deny any of the results but they just need to be put into perspective which was the reason for me to keep going on with this. To many times it sounds like chicken little sky is falling rather than the real world, since most of the hype either way is ramped up way to much.

What convinced me (as a former K&N user) were the ISO 5011 tests run by Arlen Spicer.  These were done on an expensive ($285,000 a decade ago) and precise machine that flows test dust (with a specific mix of particle sizes) at a constant rate until a filter clogs up.  The restriction is measured during the entire run, as is the weight of the dust both trapped, and passed, by the filter.  These tests are posted on multiple locations around the web, including here:  https://www.nicoclub.com/archives/kn-vs-oem-filter.html

I don't know how difficult it is to change the filter on your new Valkyrie, but I suspect it's not as easy as on the old 1500s.  On my F6B it's a real pain.  Below is a picture of all the parts you remove to access the filter.  I'd rather not go through this 3 hour ordeal very often, so filter life is important.

I'd also like to know my filter's condition so I could only change it when necessary.  I've been thinking of installing an air filter restriction gauge, which warns you when the restriction begins to increase.  Baldwin, Wix, and K&N all sell these for reasonable prices.  I'll post some pictures if I do.

ALL of this has to be removed to replace a GL1800 air filter!

 

Thanks for posting that, the 1500 was not great but my 1800 is almost the same as yours just a bit easier. I found that I can get it done pretty quickly by taking 4 pins out of the pods. Slipping them off  ,taking off the side covers, seat, gas tank cover and then it lifts pretty quickly. I was happy to see the connections to the tank were easy to do.

Robert, your Valkyrie looks like it has a few less parts to remove, but still has to be stripped down as much as my F6B.  I love Honda's GL platform because they are possibly the most reliable motorcycles ever made.  They're also very easy to maintain, except for the air filter on GL1800s.  Thankfully they last a very long time so we only need to change them every few years!

[Robert]

Robert, your Valkyrie looks like it has a few less parts to remove, but still has to be stripped down as much as my F6B.  I love Honda's GL platform because they are possibly the most reliable motorcycles ever made.  They're also very easy to maintain, except for the air filter on GL1800s.  Thankfully they last a very long time so we only need to change them every few years!

Depends on mileage doesn't it