Starter, ignition woes

[Oldnick]

Hi Guys. Ihoipe my story, long as it is, has enough irony and mild humour to keep you reading.

Today I had my first serious hiccup with my triked big girl. I went into towen and parked atg the local hardware shop. Shopped, came back out and tried to start....chck....chck...was all I got from down in the guts where the starter is.TRhe sound to me wasw of a loose connection under heavy current, where the act of supplying the current can break the loose connection into failure. Indeed, trying again without killing the ignition wouldproduce nothing

Of course by now I have already backed out of my sopt and I am in the middle of the lane . Anyway I can at least still reverse (electric) , so I backed into another spot and sat there thinking hmmmm. Hit the starter and off she went. OK. I did have some more shopping to do so I went to my next stop. _Exactly_ the same thing, even to reversing into another bay and then she started. Being stupid and brave, I went to a _third_ stop. Died again. I fiddled about and tried a few times and even tried reversing again.

But now of course I am reversed into a bay and the only way pout ios forward....stupid stupid stupid. and it's a shopping centre in an area not known for its honesty.

Anyway I tried a few times and finally I got a kick. In a fit of good sense I rode straight home.

However on my last but one turn, a tight left hander that I rather enjoy zipping around, I lost all power halfway through. I rolled to a stop off the road and could not start. Again, after a few tries she kicked in and I came home.

Now of course the story should be "and she has started perfectly at least ten time since I got home"....no . Still the same.

I have all other components: lights neutral light, indicators etc.

My thoughts. The starting fault definitely sounds like a loose connection. I was also thinking dud solenoid or motor armature. But the sudden failure of ther ignition puts a new light on that idea. Of course I have no idea whether the ignition was failing when I could not start.  However loose connections that fail under load after initially makinb contact IME are usually subject to fairly heavy current.

I will add that the kill switch is deactivated by disconnection,and the kickstand switch is likewise, as I assume is the tilt switch, because on a trike, if I go hard around a corner, the g force could feel like a tilt I would think. ut there is nothing to say they are not somehow back in play.

If the kickstand switch is active, would it behave like this, or be completely dead?

Can anyone think of a known connection, most likely cause etc. I would be very grateful, cause it could save a lot of delving.

Beam me up Scotty.

[phideux]

If you think it's a loose connection, and it's in the starting system, just start at the battery and work your way down. Check the battery connections, your ground, solenoid and work your way to the starter.

[Hook#3287]

If you think it's a loose connection, and it's in the starting system, just start at the battery and work your way down. Check the battery connections, your ground, solenoid and work your way to the starter.

Do you have a Honda service manual?

It is very helpful in the steps of nailing down electrical issues.

You may have multiple issues, starter switch service needed, bad ground, bank angle sensor may still be activated, etc.

Just takes time and patience to get her right.

[Chrisj CMA]

Did you look at the red connector on the solenoid.  If it's not fried and all is well there, I would do the starter button maintenance after assuring all connections are tight.

[old2soon]

Battery ground to engine block-Clean and Snug. RIDE SAFE.

[Gryphon Rider]

There was another fellow with a Valk trike who asked here why his trike would stall while tightly turning one direction, but not the other, and I think he had trouble with his trike stopped on a slope.  It turned out his bank angle sensor/relay was only fastened with one screw, and the sensor was held at an angle.  It is designed to kill the engine when the bike tips over, but once the bike is righted and the key cycled off and on again, the bike will start.  The part looks like this and is mounted to the back of the centre cover, under the nose of the seat.

[Oldnick]

Did you look at the red connector on the solenoid.  If it's not fried and all is well there, I would do the starter button maintenance after assuring all connections are tight.

Yeah after the actual battery terminals that is where I will start. Now I think about it, the electric reverse will have its own earth via chassis.

[Oldnick]

There was another fellow with a Valk trike who asked here why his trike would stall while tightly turning one direction, but not the other, and I think he had trouble with his trike stopped on a slope.  It turned out his bank angle sensor/relay was only fastened with one screw, and the sensor was held at an angle.  It is designed to kill the engine when the bike tips over, but once the bike is righted and the key cycled off and on again, the bike will start.  The part looks like this and is mounted to the back of the centre cover, under the nose of the seat.

Hey and thanks. That is worth a look after I have checked the main power leads. That is the sort of gotcha I am looking for after the obvious

[Oldnick]

If you think it's a loose connection, and it's in the starting system, just start at the battery and work your way down. Check the battery connections, your ground, solenoid and work your way to the starter.

Do you have a Honda service manual?

It is very helpful in the steps of nailing down electrical issues.

You may have multiple issues, starter switch service needed, bad ground, bank angle sensor may still be activated, etc.

Just takes time and patience to get her right.

Hah...yeah. It was lack of patience that makes me ask for possible shortcuts.

[Oldnick]

Battery ground to engine block-Clean and Snug. RIDE SAFE.

Yeah makes sense. I am just very aware how often there is some particular weirdness about auto electrics that defeats the usual chain of logic.

[Oldnick]

Thanks for the usual input guys. I was just angling for any obtuse but knowncValk problems. With all the mods to my wiring, I realise that unless there is a standout Valk problem, I just need to start at the roots and delve

[gordonv]

Refresh my memory, an IS or a regular Valk trike?

You mention all those extra lights, I'm thinking starter switch also. You have power/ground, when using the reverse. I would try with the none working bike, a jumper cable from the ground on the battery to the chassis, and see if that helps.

[DK]

There was another fellow with a Valk trike who asked here why his trike would stall while tightly turning one direction, but not the other, and I think he had trouble with his trike stopped on a slope.  It turned out his bank angle sensor/relay was only fastened with one screw, and the sensor was held at an angle.  It is designed to kill the engine when the bike tips over, but once the bike is righted and the key cycled off and on again, the bike will start.  The part looks like this and is mounted to the back of the centre cover, under the nose of the seat.

That fellow was & is me. The story above is correct. All I can add is that it happened on left turns following my installation of a belly tank, and;

My memory is that you ride a Trike as do I. In the process of tricking the bike, the bank angle sensor was taped into a remote corner in a sloppy manner which I disturbed while installing the belly tank.

It did not require going hard thru a corner to trip the sensor.

Turning the ignition off and on again would reset the sensor until the next left turn.

[Oldnick]

Refresh my memory, an IS or a regular Valk trike?

You mention all those extra lights, I'm thinking starter switch also. You have power/ground, when using the reverse. I would try with the none working bike, a jumper cable from the ground on the battery to the chassis, and see if that helps.

RegularValk. Good thought, but all the lights, including the headlight and High Beam are powered independent of the starter system. All the ignition system carries is the current to a relay that is DPDTand flips from low to high beam. Same for spotties....they are relayed into the high beam for activation, but poweredstraight from underthe seat.

However Iwill def try bypassing the battery main cables.

[Oldnick]

Gryphon Rider and DK! Maaagiiic! Spot on. I took off the side cover and saw the tilt switch. MOved it and got success. Tilted it back and had reproducable failure. The mounts are broken and I gguess ut's just been hanging there and a bump in the road finally tipped it over.

Obviously I was wrong in thining the tilt had been disabled.....as I think someone questioned .

In the short term I am going go wedge it in place and then look at shorting the realy that it controls.

So, my sincere thanks for the posts and the photo that made it so easy to ID the switch. I had a feeling that if I delved in there I would "fix" it as I moved stuff, but not know how.

[Oldnick]

OK. Done. Relay shorted. Does that void my warranty?

Trying to get anything other than a balloon, in there big enough  to wedge the tilt switch seems impossible.. Raw sausage and duck's nether parts comes to mind. So I removed the associated relay and jumpered the contacts.

Question. WHY does the tilt sensor have three wires and two voltages? Surely a mercury contact trough that powers a relay coil is enough.

[Gryphon Rider]

Glad to help!

[Gryphon Rider]

Question. WHY does the tilt sensor have three wires and two voltages? Surely a mercury contact trough that powers a relay coil is enough.

White is power from the fuse block, red/white is control power to the relay, green is ground.  I don't know why it needs a ground.  Maybe there are electronics in there to prevent a momentary jolt from killing the engine.

[Oldnick]

Thanks for the reply.   I got that, but according to my shop manual between red and white should be around 12 v, and red and green 1.4 v. So not only do we have a weird earth, but weird voltages.

Hah....it was a rhetorical question, really. If I tried to work out the Valks reasons for its wiring, I reckon I would die learning, a babbling idiot