Importance of the float valve spring?

[Ricky-D]

I don't subscribe to the motives of those that insist that proof be submitted in regard to my post that the spring claims are debunked. To these people, I know, they will never be satisfied with whatever I provide because they are just wanting to antagonize and troll my contributions and posts.

I will say this however... Since the outset of the first claim, which was posted on YouTube, I became extremely interested due to the fact that the claim was ill founded and not correct, at all. I looked at the shop manuals and determined myself that I was correct in my analysis.

Since that time, there have been posts by others with regard to the same question of float valve springs. There have been tests of spring pressures, tests of carburetor designs, and carburetor function all related to float valve needles and operation. There have been posts of floats and needles by other forum contributors.

All these postings that I refer to have been to buttress the fact that the premise promoted by the YouTube video was in fact wrong.

Now there are still those, that will not accept the truth of the matter,  and still want to cling to their belief. That's Ok. I just object to the continual profession of the claim because and for, how others with only rudimentary skills will accept this false information and make changes to their own Valkyries. I'm looking out for these members.

That's what I'm all about. Trying to help those less knowledgeable riders make better decisions and not be swayed by all the hype on this Tech. forum. I am a staunch Honda supporter, I am a believer in Honda engineering, and disgusted to read detractor's unfounded complaints, that wrongly criticize Honda's ethics and motives.

***

[hubcapsc]

If my forks leak, I don't fix 'em, I just run 'em until there's nothing left to leak out,
and Honda's plastic valve stems are awesome 

-Mike

[The emperor has no clothes]

I don't subscribe to the motives of those that insist that proof be submitted in regard to my post that the spring claims are debunked. To these people, I know, they will never be satisfied with whatever I provide because they are just wanting to antagonize and troll my contributions and posts.

I will say this however... Since the outset of the first claim, which was posted on YouTube, I became extremely interested due to the fact that the claim was ill founded and not correct, at all. I looked at the shop manuals and determined myself that I was correct in my analysis.

Since that time, there have been posts by others with regard to the same question of float valve springs. There have been tests of spring pressures, tests of carburetor designs, and carburetor function all related to float valve needles and operation. There have been posts of floats and needles by other forum contributors.

All these postings that I refer to have been to buttress the fact that the premise promoted by the YouTube video was in fact wrong.

Now there are still those, that will not accept the truth of the matter,  and still want to cling to their belief. That's Ok. I just object to the continual profession of the claim because and for, how others with only rudimentary skills will accept this false information and make changes to their own Valkyries. I'm looking out for these members.

That's what I'm all about. Trying to help those less knowledgeable riders make better decisions and not be swayed by all the hype on this Tech. forum. I am a staunch Honda supporter, I am a believer in Honda engineering, and disgusted to read detractor's unfounded complaints, that wrongly criticize Honda's ethics and motives.

***

I do appreciate that you are here helping members  I think a simple question by Hook has devolved into something personal for some reason. I don't recall anybody badmouthing Hondas engineering or ethics. Actually I think most of us here think pretty highly of Hondas engineering. As far as me asking when it had been debunked. That was mearly because I thought maybe I had missed something on the subject. Hopefully any new members will be able to wade thru all this and get the info they need. As for me, I think I'm going to defer to a couple members that have done research on the matter and presented it in a factual manner. Everyone is free to figure their own route.

[indybobm]

Mike, I agree. Honda must have designed it that way. After all the oil leaks out, it is not as messy when you take them apart!
When I take the float bowls off of the six carbs and they all sit at different heights and bounce differently, I'm changing the float valves.
To me, it is a visual indication that something has changed from original specs.

[98valk]

I don't subscribe to the motives of those that insist that proof be submitted in regard to my post that the spring claims are debunked. To these people, I know, they will never be satisfied with whatever I provide because they are just wanting to antagonize and troll my contributions and posts.

I will say this however... Since the outset of the first claim, which was posted on YouTube, I became extremely interested due to the fact that the claim was ill founded and not correct, at all. I looked at the shop manuals and determined myself that I was correct in my analysis.

Since that time, there have been posts by others with regard to the same question of float valve springs. There have been tests of spring pressures, tests of carburetor designs, and carburetor function all related to float valve needles and operation. There have been posts of floats and needles by other forum contributors.

All these postings that I refer to have been to buttress the fact that the premise promoted by the YouTube video was in fact wrong.

Now there are still those, that will not accept the truth of the matter,  and still want to cling to their belief. That's Ok. I just object to the continual profession of the claim because and for, how others with only rudimentary skills will accept this false information and make changes to their own Valkyries. I'm looking out for these members.

That's what I'm all about. Trying to help those less knowledgeable riders make better decisions and not be swayed by all the hype on this Tech. forum. I am a staunch Honda supporter, I am a believer in Honda engineering, and disgusted to read detractor's unfounded complaints, that wrongly criticize Honda's ethics and motives.

***

 

[98valk]

Honda's plastic valve stems are awesome 

-Mike

there we go. Honda only had been using them for yrs esp on the GL1500 with never the failures as reported here. I posted a few times even with the chemical charts that the stem material is designed to last 60-100k miles per Fed law, however the material degrades quickly when petroleum distillates are applied to it. Just about every polish out there has the PDs in it and is why the stems fail. nothing to do with centrifugal force, etc., etc., or other feelings by non-engineering types.
and when I posted people just ignored the chemical facts and zero discussion.
Enjoy!

[Hook#3287]

To these people, I know, they will never be satisfied with whatever I provide because they are just wanting to antagonize and troll my contributions and posts.

I hope you don't feel I fall in this category, because I don't have a goal to antagonize or troll anyone on anything.

That's what I'm all about. Trying to help those less knowledgeable riders make better decisions and not be swayed by all the hype on this Tech. forum. I am a staunch Honda supporter, I am a believer in Honda engineering, and disgusted to read detractor's unfounded complaints, that wrongly criticize Honda's ethics and motives.

As I have stated before in this post and in others, I respect your opinion, as well as others and have learned more from this site than I ever thought possible.  But that is not going to stop me from asking questions.

When I take the float bowls off of the six carbs and they all sit at different heights and bounce differently, I'm changing the float valves.
To me, it is a visual indication that something has changed from original specs.

This is exactly my point and what started the whole discussion, if I'm there anyways, I'm changing them.  It was implied that was foolhardy, a waste of money and I wanted to clarify why that opinion was there.  So far, nothing has changed that fact that I consider changing them, while there, a good practice.  I don't pull carbs for pleasure, it's for a reason.

Now, what's the best oil to use in my Valkyrie?

[Hook#3287]

I am a staunch Honda supporter, I am a believer in Honda engineering, and disgusted to read detractor's unfounded complaints, that wrongly criticize Honda's ethics and motives.

I too hold this opinion about Honda, I have only owned Honda motorcycles, for just about 50 years.  When I try to count how many Honda products I own, I lose count around 15 and have to start over.

But, in regard to their engineers, when these carb's were designed, ethanol was not added to gasoline and it's impact was most likely not considered.  So some after the fact engineering was needed.

One example is, someone with a better understanding of carb's than I, decided 38 slow jets might help and I subscribe to that fix, all my bikes get that re-engineering.

Maybe carbon build up is a concern, but pulling carbs to change or clean jets is no longer needed.

[Gabriel]

Actually Ethanol has been around forever and Gasoline containing up to 10% ethanol began a decades-long growth in the United States in the late 1970s.
Flex fuel vehicles have been manufactured and sold here since the late 90's which means they could run up to 85% ethanol.

[98valk]

Actually Ethanol has been around forever and Gasoline containing up to 10% ethanol began a decades-long growth in the United States in the late 1970s.
Flex fuel vehicles have been manufactured and sold here since the late 90's which means they could run up to 85% ethanol.

Exactly. The Valkyrie owners manual clearly states designed for up to 10% ethanol.

38 pilots is another back yard engineering which is not the answer. people who have done it say it works yet now they know there is problem and most likely use required fuel additives that they didn't use before the 38s. But now they think 38s fixed the problem...NOT. 

[Jess from VA]

The Valkyrie owners manual clearly states designed for up to 10% ethanol.

Carbureted Valkyries may run on 10% ethanol just fine.

But let them sit with it in their tanks/carbs for a few months (untreated), and they often run like sh!t or maybe not at all.

Death to ethanol polluted gasoline (and it's sponsors and supporters), everywhere!


(I was looking for BIg BFs carb repair photos with the green growth on them, but cannot find them)

[indybobm]

(I was looking for BIg BFs carb repair photos with the green growth on them, but cannot find them)

You mean this one?



It's on his facebook page.

[Jess from VA]

Yep, that's the one.  Thanks. (don't do faceplant)

Poster boy for ethanol.

[Hook#3287]

Exactly. The Valkyrie owners manual clearly states designed for up to 10% ethanol.

I didn't see that, but never looked that close either.  Thanks for the info.

But what happened when they made the change to the 10% blend?  I know my bike didn't like it.

Carbureted Valkyries may run on 10% ethanol just fine.

But let them sit with it in their tanks/carbs for a few months (untreated), and they often run like sh!t or maybe not at all.

Death to ethanol polluted gasoline (and it's sponsors and supporters), everywhere!

 

I can only claim what my own experience is.  I don't add gas additives because I had one too many containers open in the bags.  Sucks.     I've put the containers in zip locks, I've taped the caps on, they still leak.  About the only additive I add is at the end of the season when I treat the tank with some Stabil Marine.

Some of my bikes have sat for more than a month during the season.

Since replacing with 38's, I have never had a slow jet plugged up.

[Lyonardo]

Well, I think it was my video post that sparked this conversation, though I didn't know it would be so controversial.
I've described my own reasons for replacing the float valves, based on what I observed under a macro lens.
Personally, I plan to check on all of those components every few years, and clean/replace as necessary.
If anyone wants to do the same, feel free to check out my video for a reference.
L

when that happens u are suppose to adjust the float tab, not the spring, to ensure needle valve closure and then adjust float level.

what u did might cause a low fuel level in the bowl now, which will result in extreme leanness aka a viewing hole in piston top to see the top of the connecting rod.  

There is no adjustment on the GX160 carb float.  It's a very simple float, float valve.  I doubt very much a leanness situation will happen on it, it will just sputter.  But if it burns a hole in the piston, I'll let you know.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that the float valve in a GX160 is even close to the design of the ones in a Valk.  They do basically the same function, but are very different.

Ricky-D , the reason for my last post is only because of the coincidence of the whole thing and as I said, make you own conclusion and I believe we know yours.  I was only relating what happened and I don't believe any one is being misled, but if so, hopefully you will show us the debunking you discussed and we can all be correctly informed.

I didn't think u were being misleading, u just provided a real world example to fix something, just in my experience not the way to go for a long term fix.
Hey, I hope everything works out.  just my weird sense of humor sometimes with the piston hole comment. didn't mean to be degrading or anything.
All the best to u. looking forward to the next tech session with ya.  
God Bless.

[Rusty Pipes]

I'm here because my carbs are on the bench. When checking float operation i noticed that only one float had nice "bounce response" when taped with a finger. The other 5  floats had varying degrees of "bounce" A couple were nearly dead. I bought this bike last Dec but was told the carbs were gone thru in June of 16. Bike was only ridden a few times after that. I do not know if the float valves were replaced but the viton tips do show slight wear so these valves may be original.  The valve pins are not dragging due to gunk. It appears that 5 of 6 springs are weak. I see this inconsistency in spring strength as a fault/problem. I have ordered 6 new float valves from Honda...OEM parts.

Why did i pull carbs. Previous mechanic bent a butterfly shaft arm that caused binding. This caused the entire carb bank to hang open. Also piolet and slow jets were gummed up  from setting. I feel the bent shaft helped to persuade the PO to sell the bike.  He had no mechanical skills and the bike ran terrible..

[98valk]

I'm here because my carbs are on the bench. When checking float operation i noticed that only one float had nice "bounce response" when taped with a finger. The other 5  floats had varying degrees of "bounce" A couple were nearly dead. I bought this bike last Dec but was told the carbs were gone thru in June of 16. Bike was only ridden a few times after that. I do not know if the float valves were replaced but the viton tips do show slight wear so these valves may be original.  The valve pins are not dragging due to gunk. It appears that 5 of 6 springs are weak. I see this inconsistency in spring strength as a fault/problem. I have ordered 6 new float valves from Honda...OEM parts.

Why did i pull carbs. Previous mechanic bent a butterfly shaft arm that caused binding. This caused the entire carb bank to hang open. Also piolet and slow jets were gummed up  from setting. I feel the bent shaft helped to persuade the PO to sell the bike.  He had no mechanical skills and the bike ran terrible..

"Also pilot and slow jets were gummed up  from setting."
so most likely the float needle springs are gummed up also inside of the needle. and the float pivot shaft to carb body can also be gummed up.

[Leathel]

I stumbled on this thread when looking in to leaking float valves..... I almost got a set of OEM float valves as the springs must have been worn 

Now I know the book says you need to check the float height and if to low replace the floats and valves (which I am sure will fix it) but x each by 6 and it adds up to more than I want to spend

Well after watching a you tube video of how the float height changed with K&L float valves (well they go on about the springs but I noted the float height change) I thought I had nothing to loose so I grabbed a set of K&L (cheaper by far) and a single OEM float valve

The OEM old and new are the same, same float height same spring pressure as far as I can see and with them in the floats hit the carb before or at least the same time bottoming on the valve seat

The K&L valve is slightly longer and the floats don't hit the carb when bottomed out on the valve seat.... I am not one usually to promote after market parts but if $$ are tight it may be an option without haven't to replace the floats

http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/aftermarket/XP-4086425.html

I will replace the battery in the calipers tomorrow and get some numbers to post and will replace them all and check heights but this vid is what I stumbled on

https://youtu.be/fuRJcEwW3QY

I don't agree with his idea that it is all in the spring..... but you can here the OEM bottom on the carb but not the K&L....so the OEM isn't going to bounce the same as the spring is not fully compressed but it did point out tome to try the K&L float valves as the float was definitely sitting higher

I will get some pics etc up in the next day or two

[Ricky-D]

It sounds to me that you are operating under fallacy and lack of knowledge, relying on outdated methods and wrong conjecture. Instead of implying you know what the manual says, you ought to read it and then be able to accurately relay the correct procedures and operations. To rely on aftermarket parts manufacturers for your information to make judgments' about the efficacy of what you are doing, is folly, and I would suggest to use the Honda Repair Manual for Valkyrie for the correct information and the proper methods for examination of parts.

***

[98valk]

the float hitting the carb body have nothing to do with anything. the float had fully seated the needle into the seat way before it is being pushed by hand force to hit the carb body. Again the spring has zero to do with the needle being fully seated into the seat. see my earlier post in this thread. Keihin has been building carbs since 1956,  I bet they know what they are doing. there are zero flaws on the Valkyrie carbs designed by Keihin.

[Leathel]

It sounds to me that you are operating under fallacy and lack of knowledge, relying on outdated methods and wrong conjecture. Instead of implying you know what the manual says, you ought to read it and then be able to accurately relay the correct procedures and operations. To rely on aftermarket parts manufacturers for your information to make judgments' about the efficacy of what you are doing, is folly, and I would suggest to use the Honda Repair Manual for Valkyrie for the correct information and the proper methods for examination of parts.

***

wow....

 I got an online OEM Service manual (61MZ009) to check what it says...to check if my generic manual says it correct &  it doesn't mention the float valves but it said the same about the float height and replace the floats

I know the floats are the issue, all the floats are sitting 2mm low on the left bank (only side I have measured, RH bank I have yet to strip) but I also know the cost of a set of floats alone are going to run me $280 locally, I looked at importing them in to NZ but the freight kills it but the float valves fit in an envelope. Becomes a cost issue, If I didn't buy some suspension bits last month I may have replaced the floats but I need the bike running.

 The aftermarket float valves have lifted the distorted floats to the correct level so should get me running again

I will measure the RH side as it will be interesting to see if the floats are as distorted as the RH bank does not flood the same at idle on the stand..... so time will tell, wont get in to that until tonight (morning here ATM)

[Leathel]

the float hitting the carb body have nothing to do with anything. the float had fully seated the needle into the seat way before it is being pushed by hand force to hit the carb body. Again the spring has zero to do with the needle being fully seated into the seat. see my earlier post in this thread. Keihin has been building carbs since 1956,  I bet they know what they are doing. there are zero flaws on the Valkyrie carbs designed by Keihin.

If pushing the float at the float valve position it hits the carb body (not done like in the video) so the float valve does not seat fully, I agree the springs have nothing to do with it but my float level is to low from spec so the floats are distorted, If I replaced them it would fix it, too many $$ for me ATM so the temp fix of K&L valves that are slightly longer and getting the float valve seating before it hits the carb body

Edit to add
as mentioned in my post I think the video is wrong about the springs....I only took the fact the floats are sitting higher to counter bottoming and thought I would try them

[Leathel]

I thought I better video this, to be sure there is no confusion, the  OEM recommendation of replacing the floats if the float level is below spec will fix this, its not a flaw..... I have faulty distorted floats

 But I thought I would try a cheaper fix for now to get me running as I have found the K&L float valves are slightly longer when the spring is compressed which will stop the float bottoming (well topping out when in the bike) limiting the pressure it can put on the float valve for a good seal when the spring is compressed

https://youtu.be/IwWA9judgc4

https://youtu.be/Ou7ewonygOg

I understand why the factory floats are not adjustable as to many have incorrectly adjusted the float level in the past and that could do serious damage to the engine, its not a flaw but an item that needs to be checked while your carb is apart to check to see if it is in spec. I didn't check last time I had it apart... so not a fault with the carb as such but a thing to check

[Leathel]

I took a few pics for reference the other night but hadn't had time to post them, The K&L float valves are indeed longer when compressed than the OEM float valves.... Not a great thing if your floats are still in std form.... but ass all 6 of mine are out of alignment with OEM Valves I will see how they go.

Factory spec on the float height is 13.7mm + or - .5mm, with the carb on its side I was getting 11.7mm so well under spec, I could hold the carb/camera & caliper so had the carbs on there back to take the pics which shows it with a little float spring compressed a little but these are for reference with the two different float valves

OEM 11.7mm on its side but 11mm on its back



K&L 13.9mm on its side but 13.8mm on its back , It didn't compress like the OEM when up this way which I didn't like to much, I'd rather its spring to be as soft as the OEM spring.




But those numbers are not what I was after, these next numbers are with a bolt on the float valve area to compress the float valve spring

OEM the floats are hard on the carbs, not a good thing (8.7mm)



K&L didn't bottom out on the carb body as it sat 1.5mm higher, but the bolt weight was still enough to compress the float valve spring completely (10.2mm)



OEM float valve length to where it bottoms out (spring length is irreverent as compressed is where it shuts the fuel flow off)



K&L (note the measurement was taken without the camera in hand and float valve held in place for reference...not quite sitting right in the pic, the point is over the caliper a little)




K&L has a longer body by .5mm and that has me thinking it should stop my leaking fuel valves....


 but re this thread and Float Valve springs, IMHO the issues some are having have nothing to do with the springs but distorted floats and in my case the body length of the K&L float valves counters that...... And if I had the coin I would have just replaced the floats and stayed with the old OEM valves as they had exactly the same float height as the single new OEM float valve I purchased for reference

[Leathel]

Well that sorted my problems, bike is running like a rocket again

 

[The emperor has no clothes]

Well that sorted my problems, bike is running like a rocket again