Valkyrie Riders Cruiser Club

Just tragic news.

FOX has an audio clip of air traffic control with helicopter. I can’t make heads or tails of what is being said.

https://www.foxnews.com/video/6367984120112 (https://www.foxnews.com/video/6367984120112)

Terrible, terrible  :-\


This page has a few different views of impact.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/new-videos-helicopter-collision-airplane-near-reagan-airport/ (https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/new-videos-helicopter-collision-airplane-near-reagan-airport/)


Additional radio transmissions

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/i-saw-fireball-audio-dca-air-traffic-control/ (https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/i-saw-fireball-audio-dca-air-traffic-control/)


There are other reports posted as well if anyone cares to visit the page;

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/ (https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/)


A different website had this posted on their page


“ US Figure Skating Confirms ‘Several Members’ Were Among Passengers In DC Crash”


https://wltreport.com/2025/01/30/us-figure-skating-confirms-several-members-were-among/ (https://wltreport.com/2025/01/30/us-figure-skating-confirms-several-members-were-among/)

This X post talks about the helicopter and the transponder it was using.

https://x.com/nicksortor/status/1884812192173731915?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1884812192173731915%7Ctwgr%5E811f370db49c79d3846fb57d7b44b8baee00f8d5%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwltreport.com%2F2025%2F01%2F30%2Fus-figure-skating-confirms-several-members-were-among%2F (https://x.com/nicksortor/status/1884812192173731915?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1884812192173731915%7Ctwgr%5E811f370db49c79d3846fb57d7b44b8baee00f8d5%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwltreport.com%2F2025%2F01%2F30%2Fus-figure-skating-confirms-several-members-were-among%2F)

I just saw this on Newsmax and I am appalled and heartbroken.   I am heartbroken for all the family members that were on that aircraft. 

I am appalled at what I heard in the audio linked above.   I know its just a partial audio but, unless that Blackhawk was flying in some mode that prevented it from having a "radar signature" this is just appalling and really shows a major degradation in our air traffic control personnel and processes. 

Again, all I have is the information from the audio linked above and the visual. 

Also the news conference just held by D. C. Mayor was not very informative. Just talking about recovery.  D. C. Airport will re-open at 11:00 AM

I know almost nothing about air traffic control and how aircraft are managed so I do not know what any protocol is regarding any of this and I’ll be honest, I’ve listened to some air traffic controllers and pilots talking over the years and cannot make heads or tails of what they’re talking about or saying.

This is just so sad.

I heard it said on this mornings news, of the members on the helicopter there was a Warrant Officer on board if that means anything. It was supposedly a training exercise so I have no idea what that means as far as how experienced the pilot was of if this was a basic training exercise per se. It was a big helicopter not a combat helicopter so I can see a difference in maneuverability.

I know nothing either but altitudes had to be a problem  it has been said that the crash occurs between 200 and 400 feet. Sounds reasonable as the airliner only had to cross the river and the runway is right there. I understand that military aircraft use this airspace regularly too. So, how could air traffic control not see those two aircraft flight path and altitude and not declare an emergency? Not looking to assign blame but it seems that if these aircraft regularly share this airspace it would be amazing to me that this has not happened before if air traffic control has the equipment to show them all the information they need? Shaun Duffy says the helicopter was in a standard flight path? Baffling!

I don't know much about air traffic control, just want I have read about it and what I learned in my short time on an aircraft carrier as an ET.  

I was interested in what I found in a search about Air Traffic Controllers.  It was mentioned, in a news auricle, (which may or may not be true) that those in the tower might have had five and two years of experience.

So, if that was true I wondered why and I did a search.  I found the link below from 2023:

https://www.local3news.com/regional-national/faa-won-t-hire-air-traffic-controllers-older-than-31-forcing-them-to-retire-at/article_5e1441f4-0aa8-11ee-8512-f352af00502e.html (https://www.local3news.com/regional-national/faa-won-t-hire-air-traffic-controllers-older-than-31-forcing-them-to-retire-at/article_5e1441f4-0aa8-11ee-8512-f352af00502e.html)

Now, in reading the text in the link above I found this.

One of the most pressing issues is a shortage of air traffic controllers – who handle the crucial task of guiding aircraft between and around airports – with a shortfall of about 3,000, according to Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg. As a result, the FAA asked airlines to reduce summer flights in the New York metropolitan area, where a key radar facility is only 54% staffed.

“Chronically low staffing has been a problem for a while,” says Paul Rinaldi, a former air traffic controller and vice president of the Global Air Traffic Controller Alliance. “We stopped training during Covid, and a lot of people retired. This does have a negative impact on the volume of traffic.”

Once more the COVID19 issue may have very well effected the safety and efficiency of another very important group of people.  

I don't know how it really is today, but as I said before, in years past, the people working in Air Traffic Control were noted to be highly skilled and highly trained and highly motivated to be safe.  

Just like working in commercial nuclear power, safety is and always should be the number one thing in you mind as you take steps and make decisions in areas such as air traffic control.  And I don't know if their way communication is required in air traffic control.

What is "Three way communication"?

Person One:  "Open Main Steam Valve MS-101"
Person Two (one receiving the instruction) "Understand Open Main Steam Valve MS-101 "

Person Three:  "That is correct"

If not correct Person Three so states and the process repeats.  

And notice you don't say "Open Main Steam Valve".  You must give the ID on the valve.  It is a "standard" in nuclear power and I thought it was a standard in Air Traffic Control. 


 

What a tragedy, this is what makes me hesitant to fly.

I know statistically by user volume it's one of the safest, maybe the safest, form of long distance travel, but still gives me pause.

This from someone who rides motorcycles  :roll:

It seems it may come down to an error by the Air Traffic Control.

There maybe (most probably) several contributing causes. From what the wife described of a video on TV, it appears that the helo made a sudden (possibly broken control) swerve to the right - into the flight path of the airliner (which was on final approach). Neither aircraft is really maneverable in these situations, and if some control went out on the helo, they may not have had time to correct / cope with the issue. In any event - NTSB and military aircraft safety people will be investigating.

Yes - I did go through basic / intermediate Naval Flight Officer training back in 1984 / 85. Did not get my wings.

Flying into the National Capital region is not something  I would to do, especially around Reagan (Andrews wouldn't be nearly so hectic).

It was just reported on Newsmax that the helicopter was on a night vision training/qualification flight. Night vision flying was what we did when I was stationed in Sacramento. It seems like a terrible idea to me to attempt night vision training in the most congested and complex airspace in the entire country. If in fact that was taking place it cannot be overruled as a possible cause of this tragedy.

What I heard early this morning was that it was a mandatory/yearly Re qualification training flight.

It was said the helicopter was equipped with night vision equipment, but uncertain if it was in use at the time.

Since I don’t knkw what this involves for requalification, does part of the process involve flying w/o night vision or a combination of with and without.


Adding on;

This is Defense Secretary Hegseth update;

https://x.com/ABC/status/1884976381907632608?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1884976381907632608%7Ctwgr%5Ea7a49285e7441b0c5314bdcddb01025886ffabf7%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegatewaypundit.com%2F2025%2F01%2Fdefense-secretary-pete-hegseth-provides-update-black-hawk%2F&mx=2 (https://x.com/ABC/status/1884976381907632608?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1884976381907632608%7Ctwgr%5Ea7a49285e7441b0c5314bdcddb01025886ffabf7%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegatewaypundit.com%2F2025%2F01%2Fdefense-secretary-pete-hegseth-provides-update-black-hawk%2F&mx=2)


Original source;

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/defense-secretary-pete-hegseth-provides-update-black-hawk/ (https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/defense-secretary-pete-hegseth-provides-update-black-hawk/)

I am right in the Regan National Airport and Pentagon flight paths for both commercial jets and helicopters flying out of Davison Army Airfield South of me (where the chopper in this accident came from).  The jets are higher but dropping altitude quickly with speed brakes, lining up to land.  They're pretty quiet, but I hear them 24/7.  The helicopters are much lower and louder, and sometime they go right over my house at a few hundred feet, which doesn't shake windows but gets your attention (especially if you're sleeping).

Jeff is right, Regan National has the toughest and trickiest air traffic in the nation, and they all must get over the Potomac River at some point to avoid population living underneath (and very restricted DC airspace).  Probably why both aircraft ended up in the River.  

It's a wonder we don't have more accidents than we do.

I was legal advisor to 6/7 USAF aircraft accidents (B1B, B52, F111, F4 among them) and the NTSB and Army both do this one.  No stone is left unturned.  

My gut reaction is the jet had right of way and the chopper screwed up.  But it's just a guess.  

I don't know if the chopper screwed up, or like I said -  maybe something broke in the chopper that the aircrew didnot have enough time to compensate for. We will see when NTSB and the army are finished with their investigation.

My son and his girlfriend are right in Arlington. There’s a highway we take to get to his place which goes right past the Pentagon, Jefferson Memorial and Arlington Cemetery and it’s amazing to see the planes.

On the NJ Turnpike, there’s a section that goes past Newark Int’l airport and you get a clear shot of lots of landings and some takeoffs. If you’re driving south on the TP you see the planes on approach with their lights on “stacked” all in line one behind the other.

Of course it’s been many years since I was a crew member flying with NVG technology. What hasn’t changed is ambient light is the enemy of night vision equipment. Additionally, relative distance can be distorted. In other words with NVGs you can see a plane at night so far away that it’s not visible with the naked eye and think it’s pretty close. So, it is conceivable that if the pilot in control of the chopper was on goggles he saw the plane but convinced himself it was farther away.

PS. If this was a qualification flight, there might have been a time requirement for goggle use that could have caused a pilot to be wearing the equipment at a time when someone not trying to meet that requirement would have removed the goggles to see better

      Spent All my time in Naval Aviation. As an Enlisted puke. Aircraft on lamding approach no matter the size or Military or Civilian handle like a tub of jello. SLOW to react to flight chamges. Jess nailed it Aircraft on approach are LOSEING altitude and SLOWING down. The term we used then was the bird is dirtied up-flaps landing gear And Slowing down. A LOT of Military aircraft accidents become-Pilot Error-which if the Pilot is not killed Will End a Pilots Career generally. All the Military and Civilian letter agencies as Jess stated will leave no stone unturned. I Hope on both sides all those Very Important maint logs are up to date! Those Military yellow sheets-bitch sheets we called them-will show any chronic issues with that helo and should be the same for the civilian aircraft. Do NOT expect any speedy answers. Also those media talking heads usually git it WRONG! RIDE SAFE.

Absolutely no way an aircraft is going to be allowed to fly in that Controlled Airspace without properly squawking the correct code and yes, a Blackhawk does present a decent radar image.  If, in that airspace and unidentified aircraft was observed on radar, that aircraft would have activated the on-call alert squadron protecting DC and the Capitol.  


Personally, I think Newmax of full of crap.   NVGs magnify ambient light, the darker the better.  There's no way I believe this training mission was done under NVGs.   This entire area has so much light pollution the pilot's vision would be shut down.  I would be absolutely amazed if NVG was in use with so much light pollution in that area.

This airport is one of the busiest in the nation, very congested traffic with a huge amount of NO FLY restricted areas (The White House being just one of them.).   All traffic unless specially approved must approach along the river or other designated routes.  Absolutely no way I'm buying the NVG story.   I was qualified for NVG as a mission pilot and if asked to do so in such an area would have refused to fly the mission, that's just stupid.  But I'm quite certain no one would have asked.

I do have a few other thoughts about how this accident could have occurred but will withhold them for now.   Just not enough information and facts available right now.

Edited: Reference this Blackhawk flight being on a training mission, it's hard to know what that was intended to be but let me offer one possibility, a new pilot comes the the unit, it would be normal for that pilot to undergo familiarization with flying into and out of the locations and routes normally associated with their mission before they are actually turned loose flying those missions.  Or, it could be this training mission is an annual requalification requirement.   When I flew the Z in S. Korea, to do so single pilot had similar requirements.

The training mission could have also been a IFR training mission where the "trainee" goes under the hood so he can only see his instrument panel and his navigation instruments.   In that case, the "trainee" can't see squat outside the aircraft and would depend on the other sets of eyes to watch for traffic.   Have flown IFR many times in real IFR conditions as a mission pilot.  Not saying that's what was going on but, it's one possibility.

Another option.  When flying in controlled airspace, (it was normal) to receive instructions about other aricraft within the airspace I was flying.   That information was provided in this manner.  Army 12345, you have traffic at your ten o'clock at 3000 ft.   This way you knew where to look.  I did not hear such a warning from ATC about where the commercial airliner was at.   The commercial airliner would also receive similar information about the Blackhawk.   The only thing I've heard up to this point was instructions for the Blackhawk to pass behind the airliner.

Well, if the Blackhawk pilots didn't know where to look, they may have mistaken the commercial airliner that was taking off as the one the ATC controller was telling them about.  This is all supposition but, there's just not enough facts known at this time.

Rams

It was a horrible incident.

My understanding is that Air Traffic Control had instructed the Blackhawk to pass behind the airliner.  The last communication from the Air Traffic Controller was, "PAT25, do you have the CRJ in sight?"

Sometimes a small mistake results in horrendous catastrophe.

I agree with you as I said at the beginning. I think an NVG flight at that location would not be reasonable. Yes NVGs magnify ambient light but any amount of ambient light that allows for seeing with the naked eye is too much for the goggles to operate properly.

There was enough talk about NVGs from the President on down to give me the impression they might have been in use. We shall see

28 airline passengers and all 3 chopper guys have been fished out so far.

Divers may be working now.  The Potomac is only supposed to be 8 feet deep there (and probably 20 feet of mud).  That job would really suck.

When people drown, they go down and stay there until gasses build up, then they float up (if they're not inside a plane; this one broke up on impact, but plenty could still be inside).

When people drowned in the Detroit river next to my Island (growing up), it was a lot deeper and constant current was moving at 7-9 knots.  They'd drag the bottom with big hooks from boats and bring up bodies (or parts).  I don't want that job either.  Several times in my childhood through HS, we'd see floaters from the front yard, and call the local Coast Guard station (under 2 miles away).  One guy was right next to our dock.  We still called the Coast Guard.  That guy had been in the water a long time.

I have no idea why this is in the PaM board.

Having said that, I've just been watching all the local affiliate MSM channels (which I never do) to see if I could learn anything more about this.

The answer is NO.  But every affiliate has their reporters in the terminal, along the river and all over the place, being appropriately somber and sad talking their heads off about the sadness and grief (like no one knew), and how the NTSB isn't telling them anything (no sh!t Sherlock), and how they don't know anything.  Except the two boats running around out there with blue and red flashing lights (zoom in), but we don't know exactly what they are doing.

Five minutes on each channel, and that was all I could take.  

No wonder I never watch those bozos.   :crazy2:

And remember the old saying.......    If it bleeds, it leads.

A terrible accident

We may never know exactly what happened and I will not hazard any guess.

Prayers for those lost and their families

No disrespect intended toward anyone that was on that stage but, I don't believe any of them had a clue as to NVGs and what they were saying about the crew being under NVG.   They are working off what they have either been told or guessing.   There's absolutely no way those pilots were under NVGs in that much light pollution.  Generally, the military (in this case Army) don't let stupid people fly their helicopters.  I do believe this could have been an NVG training or qualification mission but, that qualification would not have started until they got into a dark area.

Rams

As with most aviation accidents, a single failure seldom causes it. 

Maybe . . . a Control tower understaffed, with one Controller working multiple frequencies that the pilots are not able to hear the other pilots?? In these cases the Controller will broadcast on all frequencies but each aircraft would only hear what they are broadcasting, not the other aircraft.  Greatly reduces situational awareness.  Experienced pilots are always listening on frequency and trying to formulate a picture of what is going on around them.  This antiquated technology problem is system wide.

Maybe . . . The helicopter pilots mistakenly identify the wrong aircraft they agreed to separate themselves from, or lose it for a second or so as they navigate the tight rope winding path they are expected to follow.  As one’s eyes go from out side watching traffic, to inside watching aircraft instruments/navigation, it is easy to lose traffic for just a second or so.  And then, how current (how much flying recently) have the pilots had recently (night?) Night flying is generally more challenging.

Maybe . . . The RJ pilots were so intently focused on the approach they barely had time to look out for other traffic.  That approach to that runway is challenging to the best pilots.  One is expected to break off the landing on short final to a straight in landing and make a low level circle to another runway that is much shorter.  Many times this is clearance is given without notice on short final.  If one has not done this a bunch this maneuver takes your full attention.  And then to have your right wing up in a left turn on short final would block a lot of the view the copilot had of an approaching aircraft from the right side.  Was it the copilots leg?  Further loading up the copilot trying to locate the oncoming traffic on his side while flying the airplane.

No doubt, both aircraft TCAS systems would have been barking at the pilots saying “Traffic” over and over for the last bit of time.  One has to look at an in-cockpit screen (heads down) to see direction of the threat, then heads up outside to try and find the intruder.  And then the RJ jet still descending was above the helicopter so the helicopter lights would be masked by ground lights.

I feel for all the families, the military unit (that is the last thing they want to do is hurt civilians), and the airline employees.  These things stick with you.

The NTSB report will take a year or two for completion.  It will list probable cause and then secondary considerations.  And from there, we move on, make changes, and learn from our mistakes.

The work of my previous life involved piloting aircraft in and out of these airports for a few decades.

Agreed.  Lots of maybe(s).   No argument from me.

Rams

I was quite confused when I saw this on the main board, I thought I had it posted to P&M which I did intentionally.

I posted it on the P&M board because of the guidelines for controversial topics, I felt this may lead to some possible arguments and/or negative comments not meant for the main board.

It’s now on the main board at someone else’s discretion, I was not attempting to hide it from the main board and public opinion.

In the article/link below is mainly about a video of a podcast with the incident being the main topic.

The host shows printed/computer screen shots of the altitude variations and unusual flight line of the helicopter as well as video of the flight path of the helicopter and other planes innthe vicinity plus the American plane involved innthe crash.

The host also has audio of the helicopter being requested to Return To Base multiple times before the crash.

He gets into it rather quick, the video can be advanced so if any wants skim over some of the monologue of the host to get right into the visuals and the audio that’s possible.

If you’d like to do that jump to the 3 minute mark and let it roll from there.


https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/urgent-call-return-base-choppers-strange-movements-make/ (https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2025/01/urgent-call-return-base-choppers-strange-movements-make/)


If you don’t like the website above this is the link for just the video of the host.

https://rumble.com/v6f3n5y-the-urgent-call-to-return-to-base-this-crash-makes-no-sense.html (https://rumble.com/v6f3n5y-the-urgent-call-to-return-to-base-this-crash-makes-no-sense.html)



Also adding onto this post;

A near miss at the airport of passenger flight and helicopter 24 hours prior to the crash. The link below shos a video of the flight and the diversion.

https://wltreport.com/2025/01/30/near-miss-between-commercial-plane-helicopter-occurred-reagan/ (https://wltreport.com/2025/01/30/near-miss-between-commercial-plane-helicopter-occurred-reagan/)

“… a regional jet had a helicopter appear near its flight path.

According to The Washington Post, the cockpit crew alerted the air traffic control tower and had to make a second approach.”

We had an RA with a helicopter traffic below us,” a female voice in the cockpit of Republic Airways Flight 4514 said at roughly 8:05 p.m. Tuesday, according to the audio recording from air traffic control. “RA” is the code for the automated emergency alert, known as a resolution advisory, that pilots receive when their aircraft is at risk of collision with a nearby aircraft.

Flight 4514, a twin-jet Embraer ERJ 175, had departed Bradley International Airport in Windsor Locks, Connecticut, at 6:50 p.m. Tuesday and was heading south along the Potomac River corridor toward its planned landing at National, flight tracker maps show.

But just as the aircraft neared Memorial Bridge, a male voice in the cockpit alerted the tower that they had to “go-around.” The plane took a sharp turn to the west, according to flight tracker maps of the aircraft’s path.

As I heard somewhere, these incidents have many different causes and not one of them is the ONLY cause.  Sort of like the holes in the Swiss cheese lines up and bam, you have an accident.

Hay  8)
Jimmyt

That's.... interesting...

"Two planes aborted landings at DCA due to helicopters in flight path in week before crash: report"

https://www.foxnews.com/us/two-planes-aborted-landings-dca-due-helicopters-flight-path-week-before-crash-report (https://www.foxnews.com/us/two-planes-aborted-landings-dca-due-helicopters-flight-path-week-before-crash-report)

And yeah, issues like this are rarely a single failure, but the outcome of multiple cascading failures that all line up perfectly....

Sort of like the 4 basic rules of firearm safety. Violate any ONE of them and things will probably be okay. But 2 or more and things can get spicy...

Time changes everything. A commercial airport where Ronald Reagan is located would seem to be a bad idea other than being great for convenience. Mixing military and commercial traffic in aircraft approaches, especially training missions would seem to be counterintuitive. With the close proximity to the levers of power and need for defense maybe the airport needs to be converted to military and Air Force one use?

I was quite confused when I saw this on the main board,

Carl probably moved it over.  (My default is General Board whenever possible.)


Two planes aborted landings at DCA due to helicopters in flight path in week before crash: report"

I'm not really up to speed on this, but all the O6 to O10s that like to ride helicopters into DC out of Davison Army Air Field as a perk of "rank has it's privileges" may soon be driving (or riding in the back seat), like the rest of us common folk.  And it won't take waiting for the NTSB report to come out next year either.

Either that, or the ingress/egress chopper routes will be altered clear away from DCA (if that's even possible). 

I will be listening for choppers in the coming days.

With the close proximity to the levers of power and need for defense maybe the airport needs to be converted to military and Air Force one use?

With Congressional and ultimate civilian control of the US military, my bet is the military gets kicked out of the area, not a conversion to a military airport.  And there's a hundred jets in and out of there for every chopper trip.

Interesting idea - after all - there is Dulles out west in VA and BWI between DC and Baltimore, both doing normal civilian commercial activites. Also other small airfields for small civilian aircraft.

However - besides Davison Army airfield on Fort Belvoir, there is also Joint Base Andrews, Marine Base Quantico, and there is a Helo operation area for Marine 1 on Joint Base Anacostia for other military activities that have aviation operations. It might be an idea to move Marine 1 operations to Andrews (since Air Force One (and other VIP Air Force operations) are based out there).

Besides - you will NEVER get Congress to give up Reagan - so convienent for Congress people to get to / from the Capital complex.

I forget where I read that this route the helicopters fly is because of the natural landscape path/course of the water.

I'm glad this was moved out of the PaM forum personally....

Better video of this sad incident:

https://x.com/i/status/1885333220058599485

While I'm fascinated with researching what happened, how, etc..... I also keep in mind the loss of life in that moment. (I hope it was instant) and the family members having the worst week of their life right now...

I saw some pics of the young figure skaters that were lost. They were just little kids...  :'(

Maybe we will have to wait for a hijacker to fly a commercial airliners into the Capitol for attitudes to change?

I only have access to the same information any other public individual has but, I have developed a theory.

First, I don't believe this had anything to do with NVGs, way too much light pollution to be under Goggles.   Yes, NVGs were on this flight and in that NVGs are mounted to the crew's helmets, they were most likely being worn.  Additionally, during NVG flights, all interior and exterior lights are dimmed or covered so as to not interfere with the NVGs operation, I can't imagine this being allowed in such congested airspace.
(Edited: From the video, the navigation exterior lights appear to be on full bright.)
Edited #2:  I was asked to clarify the NVGs being mounted to the helmet and worn by a member.   NVGs mount to the crew helmets but, until they are put into use, ride high on the helmet and are folded down (best way to describe it) to then be covering the pilots eyes, turned on when put into use.

Second, I see no fault on the part of the Commercial Airliner, although they appear to be at an interesting dog leg on final approach, nothing I've read or heard would indicate the pilot did anything wrong.  That crew was focused on final approach.

Third, it does appear to me the Blackhawk is over the 200 foot authorized in that routing but, I have nothing to prove of that.  But, I  strongly believe the Blackhawk was significantly above 200 ft, maybe double that.   Just a SWAG.

Fourth, the Blackhawk (although appearing to be over 200 feet in altitude) appears to be dead center of the intended/authorized flight path for helicopters near the airfield.

Fifth, I believe the Blackhawk crew identified the Commercial Airliner that was taking off and was trying to follow the ATC guidance as it appears the aircraft was attempting to bank right just prior to the impact.  I don't believe the pilots of the Blackhawk saw the impacted plane until the actual impact or maybe a second just before.  Because they were looking at the aircraft to their right and not directly in front and slightly above.

Sixth, I believe the ATC controller holds the majority of blame based on the lack of guidance to the Blackhawk pilots on where the impacted Commercial Airliner was.   Based on the recordings I've listened to, it was only stated to pass behind the airliner but never where that airliner was.  The ATC tower was also below normal staffing and that may have been partially responsible.  At this tower (as it's being reported, one controller is responsible for fixed winged traffic and the other takes helicopter traffic due to the intense traffic of both.   But the FAA does allow for a single controller to operate both at the same time.   Obviously, there's a heavy workload in doing that at this airfield.

Seventh, Training flight/evaluations take place all the time, it's just unfortunate those flights have to pass through such congested air space.

All of my observations may be lacking sufficient proof of what really happened but, based on what I have read and heard, these are my preliminary conclusions.

Lastly, I watched and heard President Trumps first podium speech/remarks about this terrible loss of life and although he can say just about anything he wishes, I thought at the time his comments were way out of line during this time of loss.   Such comments reference anything not known should have been held until the investigation is completed.   Just my two cents worth of opinion.

Edited: Way too much information being put out about this (to include my theory).   Some which is pure BS!   Don't believe squat until the final report is issued.

Rams

      I have a Nephew who Is a Current Commercial airline pilot. And what he told me it's not Just Reagan national with over capacity problems. While he did Not mention near misses he Did say We dodge a lot of bulletrs. And I Know a Pure W A G but I'm thinkin dodging bullets tells me a LOT! RIDE SAFE.

I can't speak as to how Commercial Pilots see these airfields, Oldfishguy can.

I can only speak as to what airfields like this are like for those folks like me that at one point or another flew into and out of them.   I can say I never enjoyed those experiences but, it was part of the job.

Rams

Chopper was not where it should have been and ATC didn't correct it. That is the what that happened. Need to find out the why.

I thought in the moment Trump's comments at the presser were at times tactless, but as things transpired it seems that he had the preliminary info on the what and even the likely of the why.

My guess he was just furious at the apparent lack of standards that lead to this and was blatantly candid about it.

This thread was moved to the general board because it is a subject of which a large number, it not all, of us are concerned.  Since it was placed here it appears that some of us cannot help ourselves but to turn every discussion into a generalized blame contest and a pissing match.

I have removed several of those posts in the interest of keeping this discussion on the subjects of known information and our own concerns for the losses.

Good call Willow. I guess my suggestion would be not to allow any helicopter in any glide path of any active runway period. If there is no room for that amount of air traffic, it may be time to move the national airport further away from Washington DC to protect the seat of government.

There are plenty of other airports in the area - it's a question of taking Congress's favorite airport away from them. And I wouldn't be counting on that being broken anytime soon, personal opinion stated....

 As our favorite barrister in Alexandria has stated, it's more likely that Congress tells the military to find somewhere else to fly and leave the Civilian airport alone....

And here's another thing about changing DCA to all or no military aircraft.

Modern civilian jets are very quiet.  They have to be.

Military aircraft does not have to be quiet, and a good deal of it is very loud and noisy.

I live right in the flight path for DCA, and I hear the commercial jets, but they are nothing at all like it was when I lived on UASF bases near and right on the flight-line.  

Stick full squadrons of military aircraft at DCA, and the predominantly democrat locals will howl, picket and protest, lobby their congressmen and sue in courts.

(And if you don't know it, my area probably has more lawyers per square mile than any other place in the Country ;D).  

A case can be made for military protection of DC, but all those requirements can be met with bases further out and away from DC.  

Also, enemy ICBMs (nukes) may target DC, and they also target strategic military bases, but it is much less likely they target civilian airports.

Agreed but I can foresee several members of Congress now demanding special military aircraft to transport them because their time is too valuable to have to be transported 30 minutes to where they can catch a flight.  Once that starts by the privileged, all will want that.

I have no issues with all helicopters being denied flight routes close to that airport.   I also have no issues if that airfield is taken over my the military but, I doubt that's ever going to happen.

Rams

I haven't heard a single helicopter since the accident, so I asked my computer a question.

The FAA has limited helicopter flights on routes along the Potomac River between the Woodrow Wilson Bridge and the Memorial Bridge, and over the airport itself.

There are exemptions for medical emergency flights, active law enforcement and air defense, or presidential transport missions that must operate in the restricted area.

The restrictions will remain in place at least until the NTSB completes its preliminary investigation into why the collision between an American Airlines regional jet and a US Army Black Hawk helicopter occurred. The NTSB has said it expects to release a preliminary report in about four weeks.

Authorities say they have recovered the remains of 41 (of 67) people who died in Wednesday's mid-air collision.  28 of the 41, have been positively identified.

The NTSB has recovered the black box from the Black Hawk helicopter, and the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder from the jet.

Two of the three runways remain closed at DCA as the investigation and recovery operations continue.  About 100 flights were canceled Friday because of the reduced capacity.

The three Army Blackhawk guys were a Capt, CWO, and SSgt, an experienced crew, on an annual proficiency training flight.

The name of the female pilot is being withheld from the public at the family’s request.

She had 500 hours, the training pilot had 1000 hours.

I’m still curious as to why, before the crash there was a call to the helicopter to immediately return to base.

I posted this on the previous page, the audio, visual of altitude record and video of helicopter path are on this video.

The host begins his breakdown at the 3 minute mark.

https://rumble.com/v6f3n5y-the-urgent-call-to-return-to-base-this-crash-makes-no-sense.html

Mike,
There are some things in the video that conflict with what I've researched but, I'll accept (with caution).  Although I am not familiar with the specific flight rules of the DC area, I will say that the altitude variations can (possibly) be explained with flight restrictions to achieve a certain altitude from takeoff (pulling pitch) to certain points along a planned route and then to descend along that route as the aircraft nears the airfield.   Most likely, that would be due to noise restrictions placed due to the route flying over places where excessive noise from rotors is not appreciated.   Then, dropping in altitude as the helicopter nears the landing approaches.   

It's obvious that the Blackhawk did not get down to the appropriate altitude.

Reference the variations in the track, the information provided in that video conflicts with what I've heard and read but, I can't agree or disagree with.   

Reference the possibility of a "remotely controlled" Blackhawk being flown within the DC controlled airspace, that's one I can't swallow but, have no evidence to prove that didn't happen.

I also can't explain why the Blackhawk crew was asked to return to base.   That is not something I've heard or read about previously and admit, that does concern me but, again nothing I can put my finger on.   

I'm still of the opinion that ATC played a major role in why this happened but, until the investigation is completed, we won't know if, we ever really know.

I'm also wondering why the female pilot has not been identified, we're being told the family requested that information not be advertised but, I'm not buying that's the whole reason.   That information/name is eventually going to come out, why the delay?

Rams

One thing I found that didn’t sound rigt was the host of that show said the last recorded altitude of the helicopter was 400’. I could swear I read or heard the altitude for that training flight was supposed to be 200’. This may have been why President Trump said in one of his first statements that the helicopter was too high.

The flight restrictions for the section of the route near the airport is reported to be 200 feet Above Ground Level (AGL).  That altitude restriction is to provide altitude separation between aircraft on final approach and/or take offs.  Everything I've researched indicates the Blackhawk was approximately 400 feet AGL.   As previously said, there's rarely only one reason such accidents occur.

I don't believe there's any doubt the Blackhawk wasn't at the altitude required.   As to why, well that's a different question.

Rams

And now a crash in Pennsylvania last night. Somebody hacking on board systems?

One fact that can’t be disputed, they were both at the same altitude when they collided. The videos I’ve seen sure don’t appear to my untrained eye to show aircraft at 200 feet for sure.

Since they recovered all the "Black Boxes", we may have to wait to see what the "experts" come up with.

Maybe.  Sometimes though, things just suck and there's no greater reason.

Just reading about the helicopter call sign being called into question. Call sign for this flight was PAT25.

Not sure if it means anything but apparently the PAT is typically designated to Priority Air Transport which is typically used for VIP transport or having officials onboard. And why exactly was the helicopter be told to return immediately to Dulles by the (Army?) air traffic controller for the helicopter.

I found this because after reading several articles, while going through the comments of those articles comments questioning the PAT call sign for a training flight was not typical and out of the ordinary.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14343039/black-hawk-helicopter-call-sign-dc-plane-crash.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14343039/black-hawk-helicopter-call-sign-dc-plane-crash.html)

There was a third aircraft in the vicinity that had taken off which the pilot may have interpreted as the plane to pass behind.



https://www.newsweek.com/new-angle-black-hawk-crashing-plane-raises-questions-2024199 (https://www.newsweek.com/new-angle-black-hawk-crashing-plane-raises-questions-2024199)

I heard that as well, yesterday I think.  But, (again not being qualified to fly), the crux of the matter would seem to be the altitude of the Helicopter.  If 200 feet is max in that are why were they at 400 feet?

Whole heartedly agree on the altitude.   Where I have confusion is why the ATC controller didn't advise the Blackhawk pilots on the location of the airliner that he wanted them to pass behind.   In my entire flying career of flying into and out of Controlled Airspace, I've never heard anything like that that wasn't IDing the location of the aircraft I was to pass behind.

It was always, Army 12345 traffic at 9 o'clock at 3000 feet first given.   That way, I knew where to look for the traffic.   While I may be wrong, I believe the eyes on the Blackhawk were looking to their right at the departing aircraft.   The lack of a response from the Blackhawk may have been because they were looking for that traffic.

I have no idea why the military tower was telling the Blackhawk to return to base.   Impossible to know at this time.

Rams

https://www.reuters.com/wor...eadiness-2025-02-01/ (https://www.reuters.com/wor...eadiness-2025-02-01/)

Won't lie about it, I am absolutely shocked and amazed if this report is accurate.
This was sent to me by a friend, I have no way to verify it.   I don't subscribe to Reuters.
Rams

Fixed URL to Ram's link:

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/crashed-us-army-black-hawk-unit-was-responsible-doomsday-readiness-2025-02-01/ (https://www.reuters.com/world/us/crashed-us-army-black-hawk-unit-was-responsible-doomsday-readiness-2025-02-01/)

Thank you.

Listening to NTSB update briefing live, they do NOT know if night vision was being utilized at the time of the impact.

Thank you.  After posting I tried to get there but the link didn't work.   I wasn't sure why.

Rams

Rebecca Lobach ID’d as female soldier inside doomed Black Hawk during DC crash

https://www.aol.com/news/rebecca-lobach-id-d-female-222954653.html (https://www.aol.com/news/rebecca-lobach-id-d-female-222954653.html)

Rams

I just heard the tail end of the NTSB news conference.   

I noted one thing that, while not specifically relevant to the event, is to me relevant to the quality of the NTSB and that is, "Repeating the Question".

We were trained to do that as well in the "nuclear world".  It provides a process of total closure for the question and answer.  Repeating the question ensures that the information provided in the answer is germane to the question asked.  And it ensures the question asked was properly understood.

It, as I noted above, supports the notion of the NTSB being a highly skilled and competent group.

Ron, my earlier research said this:  The three Army Blackhawk guys were a Capt, CWO, and SSgt, an experienced crew, on an annual proficiency training flight.

Is annual proficiency training something that would include using night vision goggles?   

Would night vision goggles be part of the gear routinely carried aboard all these flights?

And if using night vision at the time of this accident, would they in any way contribute to flying at 400 feet instead of 200 feet?

It seems that if they were being used, it could absolutely be part of why they didn't see the jet (though ATC seems to have done a poor job helping them find/see it).   

Quote author=Jess from VA

Ron, my earlier research said this:  The three Army Blackhawk guys were a Capt, CWO, and SSgt, an experienced crew, on an annual proficiency training flight.

Is annual proficiency training something that would include using night vision goggles?   Yes, annual training and Proficiency Check Rides
Would night vision goggles be part of the gear routinely carried aboard all these flights? That depends (Not normally carried but worn.) on the mission being flown, NVGs mount to the top/front of the helmet, I wore them when required but, never while conducting test flights.

And if using night vision at the time of this accident, would they in any way contribute to flying at 400 feet instead of 200 feet? My understanding (now) is that NVGs have advanced greatly so, I can't really say, the NVGs I used would have greatly enhanced/magnified the available light and would not have allowed pilot see anything they were looking at, too much light and the googles would have "whited out".  So, all I can really say is, I don't know.

It seems that if they were being used, it could absolutely be part of why they didn't see the jet (though ATC seems to have done a poor job helping them find/see it).    At this point, I'm still in shock that NVGs were (possibly) in use at this point in the mission.   With that, I can only respond with, I honestly don't know.  The NVGs I wore/flew with in that much ambient light would not have helped see much of anything.   But as this story plays out it's apparent that I'm behind and not current with NVGs.

Regardless of the NVG issue, I still believe most of the blame appears to be on ATC, less than normal manning and failure to tell the Blackhawk crew where the aircraft they were supposed to pass behind was located.  I can visualize those pilots looking for the intersecting aircraft and not knowing where it was.

Rams

One thing I read initially which I haven’t read since; why there wasn’t another person in the back to help with navigation and air traffic?

I don’t know what is standard for helicopter personnel at this level or mission for the crew.

The Crew Chief (Staff Sgt) would be in the back and looking for things outside normally, assisting assuming he wasn't also under NVGs.   His ability to see in front would be limited though.  It's very unlikely he would be assisting with navigating.

Rams

Preliminary DC plane crash flight data shows conflicting altitude readings: investigators

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/preliminary-dc-plane-crash-flight-data-shows-conflicting-altitude-readings-investigators/ar-AA1yk3BX?ocid=msedgntp&pc=LCTS&cvid=537d464d81d9490791478074f0782bea&ei=27 (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/preliminary-dc-plane-crash-flight-data-shows-conflicting-altitude-readings-investigators/ar-AA1yk3BX?ocid=msedgntp&pc=LCTS&cvid=537d464d81d9490791478074f0782bea&ei=27)



This is the first I've heard of the airliner being low on altitude.   Setting the altimeter to the correct Density Altitude prior to take off from the departing airport and then resetting it to the destination was standard procedure.   With Army helicopters and the shorter distances covered between those two locations is not normally as big of an issue as it could/would be with commercial flights normally covering much greater distances with significantly different conditions.   I'm not suggesting that wasn't done, it could be the airliner pilot allowed their aircraft to settle to below minimums if the above information is accurate.  

The Blackhawk does appear to be higher than 200 feet (to me) and as stated in the article, Control Tower "estimates" aren't always accurate but, this story only emphasizes the need for either less traffic at that airport or other changes.   It does appear that there should have been a second controller on duty versus a single controller directing traffic for both the fixed wing and rotary aircraft.

Rams

From the message above:

Preliminary flight data from the deadly plane crash in Washington, D.C., shows conflicting readings about the altitudes of a passenger jet and Army helicopter that collided near Reagan National Airport and killed everyone on board the two aircraft, investigators said over the weekend.

Data from the American Airlines flight recorder showed an altitude of 325 feet, plus or minus 25 feet, when the collision happened Wednesday night, National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) officials told reporters on Saturday. Data in the control tower, though, showed the Black Hawk helicopter at 200 feet, the maximum allowed altitude for helicopters in the area.

The roughly 100-foot altitude discrepancy in the data has yet to be explained.

Investigators are working to retrieve data from the helicopter’s back box, which is taking more time because it became waterlogged after submerging into the Potomac River, in hopes of reconciling the difference. They also said they plan to refine the tower data, which could be less reliable.


I saw this yesterday.  I read it many times.  I do not understand.

Here is what it says.


Data from the American Airlines flight recorder showed an altitude of 325 feet, plus or minus 25 feet,

That implies that the Jet Aircraft (not the helicopter)was at an altitude of 325, plus or minus 25 feet.  Or between 300 feet and 350 feet.

Next:

Data in the control tower, though, showed the Black Hawk helicopter at 200 feet, the maximum allowed altitude for helicopters in the area.

That implies that the Black Hawk helicopter was at 200 feet.   That is 100 feet below reported (above) altitude of the Jet Aircraft.

Again, a difference in 100 feet or more (depending).   Not a lot, but maybe enough to avoid a crash. 

Next:

The roughly 100-foot altitude discrepancy in the data has yet to be explained.

What discrepancy in the data????????? 

The tower showed the Black Hawk at 200 Feet. 

The Jet Airliner's black back showed the Airliner was at 325 feet (plus of minus 25 feet). 

Again, what 100 foot altitude discrepancy????????  What????

Based on what is said in that report, one must assume no fault on the Blackhawk and the collision was due to the airliner being below minimums.   Visually, it doesn't appear that way (to me) but, I don't have the data NTSB has. 

Rams

Stupid question for our resident helicopter pilot:  With the airliner drawing in large amounts of air if the helicopter crossed the path slightly ahead of and below the jet airliner could the air movement have pulled the copter up?

Normally, when coming in for an approach, you would get the information for the airport via ATIS. This would include the altimeter setting, as well as the Duty runway, and current winds. Then when the tower makes the initial contact with the approaching aircraft, they would would give the current altimeter setting , which you would repeat while setting it. "2992" is standard for sealevel under standard temperature and pressure, but it can vary depending on location and existing conditions. When flying above 18000 feet ((Flight Level (FL)), you would also set to 29.92. If you think about it , 18000 feet and FL180 could be off , which would mean that they would not necessarily be at the same altitude.. That wouldn't be the issue here, though.

Carl, there are reasons that big airliners have sufficient space before a smaller plane would takeoff behind them, but I do not believe that it would have that much effect  while flying.

This isn't a Stupid Question.  Having never been in such a situation, I surmise that any effect would more likely be located directly behind that airliner if the helicopter were to fly through that air which would be turbulent and could result in control issues but, that's not applicable to this.


Agreed   (Never been to FL180 in a helicopter, that would have required oxygen which we didn't have.)


Agreed, depending on how the aircraft intersected, wing tip vortices would have a greater effect but, in this case, both being at almost the same altitude, little to no effect in my opinion.  Wing tip vortices are the reason modern aircraft have the wing tips (almost) vertical.   Not being a Commerical large aircraft pilot, I can't suggest how that effects the flight characteristics of those A/C.   oldfishguy would be a better resource for that.

Rams

Different altimeter readings is weird, and disturbing.

That they met midair at the same altitude (or within feet) is conclusive.

They are narrowing it down, maybe to the principle cause, but they're not there yet.

125 feet is not "good enough for government work".  


I quit ever flying again because of how I was treated on my last commercial flight, some years ago.  Not for fear of flying.  

I once got a ride in an F16B (with back seat).  I'd do that again (fat chance), but not in or out of Reagan National.

This is not me.  My base wing commander O6 was my pilot.  I will never forget him telling me over the intercom on roll-out.... "Captain, you see that yellow handle between your legs that says eject on it?  If you pull that for any other reason other than I've had a heart attack, and we survive, I'll have you before a general court-martial."

Sir, yes sir.

(https://thebucketlistadventures.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/F-16-Ride-Along-4-1024x768.jpg)

I did several training flights (as well as 3 F15 rides) where there were ejection seats. and on every single one , the Pilot said "Don't touch the ejection handles unless I tell you to". And the command set control was set to Pilot command.

And my F15 rides were out of Lambert St Louis airport. We were stationed at the Government Plant rep Office (at the time, NAVPRO) and the plane contractor was McDonnald Douglas. ATC wanted us out of the airport airspace ASAP when we were taking off, so most takeoffs were " High performance" - gear up, nose up in full afterburner to 8500 feet - by the end of the runway.

And I quit flying shortly after TSA became a thing .

ATC wanted us out of the airport airspace ASAP when we were taking off, so most takeoffs were " High performance" - gear up, nose up in full afterburner to 8500 feet - by the end of the runway.

That's exactly how my one flight went out of Incerlik AB Turkey (in the south, on the Med).  

Full afterburner, nearly straight up.  My G suit fully inflated and squeezed the hell out of me, and I still almost greyed (passed) out.  As soon as he leveled off, the suit let go, and I got my senses back right away.  I was thinking... this guy is right about 50yo, and I must be in better shape than him in my 30's.  And I could hear him grunting in my headset, and remembered from my little 3 hour preflight school a few days earlier about bearing down to counter high Gs.  He obviously had a lot more experience and practice than I did.

We flew up over and around the spectacular Taurus mountain range then out over the Mediterranean.  

Most fighter backseat rides went to NCO aircraft techs who were seen as most deserving, and I put in for a ride several times before I got one (near the end of my tour).  

(https://www.worldatlas.com/r/w960-q80/upload/70/f0/be/shutterstock-236006470.jpg)

I also was given priority to fly in the two USAF Twin Beach King Air C12s in country when assigned as defense counsel for all USAF in Turkey (17 total locations, three main bases).  Daily work was mostly done on the phone, but courts martial I had to go to them.  Though most trials were at the largest base at Incirlik where I was stationed.  I also moved around Turkey in C130s and around Europe in C 141s.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Beech_C-12J_Huron_Yokota_Air_Base_2007.jpg/1027px-Beech_C-12J_Huron_Yokota_Air_Base_2007.jpg)

While at Ft. Sill, we did some fast mover downed pilot training.   The goal was for the Airforce pilots to guide us to their location via their emergency radios.   As Operations Officer, I always grabbed one of the slots for this mission, I mostly flew a desk so, no one minded me doing that.   At the end of our slated training, I always allowed rides of both Pilots and Enlisted Air Force team members as long as we had the time and fuel to do it.   Due to that, I was offered a fast mover back seat ride several times but, could never get away from that desk long enough to go.   But, I sincerely appreciated the offer.  Also got offered rides to places unknown in KC 135s.

We had NOE courses at Tinker, Altus and Sheppard Airforce bases back then.   We would usually take those fast mover pilots on the NOE courses and scare the hell out of them.   They didn't like flying in the trees, they weren't used to doing that.  Just as I'm sure had I been able to take a ride in a fast mover, I'd have puked my guts up.   Just not the environment I was trained for.  Never did go on that fast mover ride, wish I had.

Rams

I also got space A (duty) travel in KC 135 and KC 10 tankers.  And got to watch refueling in both.  In the KC 10, it was done sitting at a console, but in the KC 135, you laid on your belly and looked out a window in the back floor of the plane.  Sometimes that refueling boom got very damn close to fighter windscreens.

KC135
(https://media.defense.gov/2022/Aug/10/2003053828/1200/1200/0/220504-F-AU145-1116.JPG)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cf/KC-135_boom_operators_station_boom_pod.jpg/1200px-KC-135_boom_operators_station_boom_pod.jpg?20070211011531)

(https://media.defense.gov/2022/May/25/2003005099/1088/820/0/220509-F-WI371-173.JPG)

(https://d1ldvf68ux039x.cloudfront.net/thumbs/photos/2109/6822409/1000w_q95.jpg)

KC10
(https://global.discourse-cdn.com/infiniteflight/optimized/3X/6/e/6ea40014556b43fa01acea12ca0ceda52dcc37f5_2_820x461.PNG)

Those boom operators are very skilled at their jobs...

The height of luxury in web seats on a C141, sometimes for 8-10 hours.  For free, what do you want?
(https://www.c141heaven.info/dotcom/places/mcmurdo/passengers/mcmurdo_0038.jpg)

Cold and drafty as hell back there too.
(https://amcmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/DSC_0188.jpg)

 

(https://i.postimg.cc/RhQr5JMY/Screenshot-2025-02-03-120712.png)

Awe come on, can't we at least try to shoot their hats off? 

With what experiance I had in flying, The usual sequence for the airliner (altimeter settings only)
1. Altimeter set to airport departing from (in this case Wichita)
2. When going above 18000 feet / FL180, set to 29.92
3. While flying the jet routes to DC, it would stay at 29.92
4. coming in before starting the approach, pilot / copilot would tune up ATIS and get the information provided.
5 When Checking into Approach control, (and descending below 18000 feet), Approach may give an updated altimeter. Aircrew should repeat this as they are setting their altimeter to what is given. If no updated altimeter from approach, as you go below 18000 feet set altimeter to ATIS information.
6.  Fly the approach to landing / waveoff / missed approach.

Flying an approach can be a very demanding task, especially so at a busy airport (ala Reagan Natl). Night / bad weather only makes it worse. Everybody knows this, so changes are held to a minimum.

I’m reluctant to add to this, because early guesses are typically only the tip of an iceberg, but first here is an unofficial transcript:

(https://i.postimg.cc/y8znN7VP/IMG-0610.png) (https://postimg.cc/xctLxDNJ)

Then the approach the CRJ was flying:

(https://i.postimg.cc/jjxXzvnn/IMG_0608.png) (https://postimg.cc/MnLVw7Dz)

Then the runway (s) layout:


(https://i.postimg.cc/2yZ6MFvz/IMG_0606.png) (https://postimg.cc/PvdT8D2c)

It appears just a lot of things went just slightly wrong for this accident to happen.  But first, the idea of closing this airport because of the proximity to things.  Just not going to happen, too much money involved in many areas.  First, the airlines themselves own the landing/departure slots once they are awarded by the government.  And as efficiency improves they have awarded more and more slots to various airlines and routes.  These slots can be sold and bought by other airlines but seldom become available because of the higher premium yield for DCA versus Dulles and Baltimore.  And this is not the only airport with theses traffic congestion issues in cities . . . LaGuardia (also a slot controlled airport), San Francisco with two parcel runways so close together that landing in pairs is common several hundred feet apart (yes, passengers are quickly briefed over the PA), San Diego with a damm parking garage built on the approach path so the angle to the runway is steeper, etc.  A lot of airports have issues, but pilots train for many of these airports in simulators.  The worst of them, before a new Captain can fly in to them they have to ride with an experienced Captain into and out of the airport.  All regulated by the FAA and watched over by them constantly.  If you ever see a guy/gal in a pretty cheap blazer standing up by the cockpit before departure it is probably an FAA individual making a surprise ride along on a leg.  Very, very common on our airlines.

Now, what went wrong, I believe a few things.  The only altimeter I’m interested in is the Blackhawk.  With several onboard at least one will be stuck at impact, but that doesn’t tell the whole story.  As I said before, the circle to runway 33 is challenging.  As is normally the case here, it comes late in the game and the crew has to decide quickly.  I’ve never flown a CRJ like this, but I know the approach speeds are similar to an airliner twice its size because it has no leading edge devices to provide additional lift at slow speeds like a large airliner has.  Hence 125knots in the flare is common . . . and now your on a short, short runway for those speeds.  And B737’s and A320’s do this routinely as well.  So the CRJ rounds the corner on short final and is going to be focused on a runway lighting system to provide a proper glide path.  If the CRJ pilots are on top of their game they are on the lower end of that lighting system glide path.  Remember, short runway . . . plant the airplane with little flare and stop the airplane.  Nothing has to do with altimeters on short final like this, it is all visual . . . inside airspeed, outside lights of glidepath (repeat 10 times a second).  And then, the barking of the collision avoidance system was hopefully going full blast.  And then did the CRJ pilots hear the half conversation the controller was having with the Blackhawk while they were doing the circle??

The Blackhawk pilots were following the river south in a haphazard way, the communication with the tower was professional . . .  but yet . . .i wonder did they really know what the CRJ was doing in the circle to runway 33?? I’m starting to think they did not know the flight path the CRJ was taking.  And then they confused some other lights with the CRJ and thought they were well behind it. 

The controller was counting on the Blackhawk to pass behinds the CRJ.  When a pilot responds “in sight” and will pass visual behind that alleviates the controller of separation.  The controller is visual with outside but would have a small radar scope near them for additional situational awareness at this level of airport.  The controller questioned the Blackhawk pilot a second time if they had the CRJ because he/she could see the conflict.

So, the controller assumed the Blackhawk pilot knew the CRJ route but should have said “traffic 11’clock 2miles, pass behind as traffic passes left to right in front of you”. The controller “assumed’’ the Blackhawk pilots knew the route the CRJ was flying, a dangerous game. 

So, the Blackhawk pilots probably did not know the airspace they were operating in well enough.  But much of that only comes with experience, not book work. And that Blackhawk crew was probably on the lower end of experience; qualified and sharp pilots but just not seen everything DCA can throw at one.  If there was a moment of doubt in their minds they should have asked for some guidance from the controller.  (It is quite common and not frowned upon at all generally.  But yet the IP had the more senior officer flying as copilot.  Did that make him more hesitant to ask for directions??)

So, the CRJ, if that TCAS system was barking at them on short final, and you see a predator on the screen near you . . . go around and get away from the threat . . . Now!  easy to say, though to do and abandon an approach.  A second or two earlier on the go around and it would just be “a near miss paperwork shuffle”. 

Anyone of these and everyone lives. 

The aviation industry, like all highly skilled trades has seen a lot of turnover since Covid ended.  Not sure if that has any influence on this accident.

This is not for publication beyond this forum, and should be considered as just an unapproved/unqualified observer of the news.

Thank you for that good write up. 

While the Air Force is accommodating in allowing others to ride along, I agree with the crowded conditions.   They really pack folks in there.  I was so upset about that a couple of times, myself and the rest of my platoon exited the aircraft while in flight versus waiting until the aircraft landed.

Rams ;)

I've been an adventurous risk taker most of my life, and thought about parachuting (in my youth), but decided to never jump out of a perfectly good airplane.  ;D

It also cost a lot of money and you had to go to school (which I'd had enough of). 

In my younger working days, was in a number of small aircraft doing smoke pratol.  Looking for fires.  Got to do it several times a week as one of those "other jobs as assigned".  Would never think of leaving a perfectly good aircraft.  Allways thought those who did jump on smokes were a bit strange.  I always managed to take the 6 am flights after spending a flight in the 4 pm flight.  Have not gotten sick in an aircraft bumping and jumping around in the thermals but it was awfully close.

Not exactly germane to the topic, but oh well, conversations tend to ebb and flow naturally....

Everyone should jump out of a perfectly good airplane once. It really is an experience that needs to be experienced...

(https://i.postimg.cc/Xv9XFK80/image.png)

For me it was a one and done sort of thing. The spousal unit is coming up on her 500th and the elder spawn has around 30...

Your response, which I partially quoted above, was excellent.  Thank you for the well written response and data about what the expectations were and your educated thoughts on what might have happened.   

An excellent post, thanks.   The question of NVGs still exists though.

Rams

     Couple times I flew off the Yorktown Pilots and Crew talked After launch. On recovery Aitcrew did NOT talk and the Pilots mostly Listened as the bird was guided back by the L S O aboard and catch a wire. And we were NOT the Only Aircraft coming back in. Never ceased to amaze me How Busy the Pilots were on launch and recovery or a trap. And I've known for a long time 2 objects can NOT occupy the same place.
                                                            RIDE SAFE.

Every time that I got a ride on a C 141, I nearly froze to death!

I got a ride in the top section of a C5-A once, that was just like flying commercial.

NTSB chair claims Black Hawk helicopter crew wore night vision goggles before midair crash

NTSB Chairwoman Jennifer Homendy says preliminary data suggests the Black Hawk helicopter crew was wearing night vision goggles before colliding with a commercial jet last week.

Rams

That’s what I heard at the very beginning. Thought it was a terrible idea and may have been partly the cause of the collision. The only thing that makes sense is that it was for qualification so they had to keep them on.

Well, it's still preliminary but, one would think that it would not have been mentioned if there wasn't a strong possibility.   Admittedly, I am shocked if, they were actually using NVGs.  I've also spoken with two current Army pilots who agree with me but, that doesn't mean I am right.  It's going to be a while before the actual final report is issued, I'm saving that CROW until then.

Rams

So another incident but not tragic.

https://www.nationalworld.com/travel/travel-news/seattle-airport-crash-japan-airlines-and-delta-plane-collide-on-runway-4977799 (https://www.nationalworld.com/travel/travel-news/seattle-airport-crash-japan-airlines-and-delta-plane-collide-on-runway-4977799)

ADS-B was disabled, for a training mission?

Is that... normal?

https://www.foxnews.com/us/black-hawk-crew-likely-wearing-night-vision-goggles-before-deadly-dc-midair-crash-ntsb (https://www.foxnews.com/us/black-hawk-crew-likely-wearing-night-vision-goggles-before-deadly-dc-midair-crash-ntsb)

Seems like to me that ADS-B was turned off as part of a scenario they were flying for training.  Also seems the required radio call was NOT made to notify controllers they were flying “un-aided” which lends even more credence to the notion they were flying with NVGs at the time of the crash.

I don't know how it really works, but when we were doing training and or "testing" with a real live 3,000 Megawatt Thermal Nuclear Reactor, we always had someone in the background watching to make sure we did not have an "event".

In other words if I was about to operate the wrong switch, someone would be there, aware of what I was doing and take actions to prevent a "mishap".   In the control room it usually took several highly skilled and trained people to ensure security.

Would this not seemly be the case on any training missing were the possibility of error was highly present???? (flying in a congested area at night wearing Night Vision Equipment)?   It does not disrupt the training.  It is there to save lives.  

I think that's what the senior guy in the right seat was supposed to be doing Bill.

If it was NVGs or other safety features turned off for training, it needs to never be done again within 10 miles of DCA.  

     I've NEVER used NVGs. I Know the ambient light is Increased a lot how much Exactly I do Not Know. O K a Google search stated NVGs increadee light 50000 times. So even a candle close at night would be like looking at an arc welser? Having been around Military airfields when Not at sea it was still fairly bright at night with the active runway and active taxiway lights operating. With That much ambient light at night be a hinderance while using NVGs in that eviroment? And WHY would that training sylabus nat NVGs in use in That much light? As a W A G investigators are asking more questions than opur forum is. RIDE SAFE.

One thing I learned from a friend regarding NVG is if flying/operating over a fully lit city the goggles tend to wash out with the extra light coming in...wash out was his term. He then added that it makes it difficult to distinguish images at times. I have numerous hours of night flying while at the controls and can't imagine having to use NVG, especially over a city.

Vital helicopter tracking system was turned off at time of plane collision in DC, Cruz says

Some text from the link below:

More information has emerged in the investigation into the mid-air collision over the Potomac River between an American Airlines jet and an Army Black Hawk helicopter, as a lawmaker reveals the chopper had turned off a vital tracking system prior to the collision.

Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, addressed reporters following a closed-door briefing with federal authorities investigating the collision that killed 67 people.

Cruz said the chopper had turned off its Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast system.
The Federal Aviation Administration describes the system as “advanced surveillance technology that combines an aircraft’s positioning source, aircraft avionics, and ground infrastructure to create an accurate surveillance interface between aircraft" and air traffic control.

The technology is considered more “precise than radar.”

The senator questioned why the system was turned off prior to the collision, given the nature of the flight operations.

“This was a training mission so there was no compelling national security reason for the ADS-B to be turned off,” Cruz told reporters.

Now regarding the “training mission” comment.  As I understand it, this was a “continuation of government” training mission.  Dealing with ensuring that our government leaders are kept safe in certain times.

However, I don’t understand what benefit it would have been for the Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast system to be turned off in the condition being tested.  Does it send out signals???  Can it increase the ability of someone to track the helicopter. 

So many questions. 

https://justthenews.com/nation/states/center-square/plane-crash-helicopter-key-tracking-system-was-turned-time-collision (https://justthenews.com/nation/states/center-square/plane-crash-helicopter-key-tracking-system-was-turned-time-collision)

This updated system wasn't available when I was flying, but I was also never in a high profile unit like the one involved in the accident.   My units were always combat aviation units.   I also have no idea why that was turned off in such a congested area.   Simply doesn't make sense to me.   Just as the allegation that the pilots were under NVG at the time of the crash. 

Hopefully we'll find out sooner than later.

Rams

Found another "source" with a little more information. 

https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/helicopters-safety-system-was-off-before-deadly-crash-near-reagan-airport-officials-say-national-transportation-safety-board-dca-federal-aviation-administration-commerce-committee-senator-ted-cruz?fbclid=IwY2xjawIVyDJleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHa57XMPXhyX4EzzxJR0YPQNkUxVpw6YogGHgWMuGIVoyrjH1p3D1XSF1bg_aem_ILUs04hnVe8AKpdfsedaTA (https://wpde.com/news/nation-world/helicopters-safety-system-was-off-before-deadly-crash-near-reagan-airport-officials-say-national-transportation-safety-board-dca-federal-aviation-administration-commerce-committee-senator-ted-cruz?fbclid=IwY2xjawIVyDJleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHa57XMPXhyX4EzzxJR0YPQNkUxVpw6YogGHgWMuGIVoyrjH1p3D1XSF1bg_aem_ILUs04hnVe8AKpdfsedaTA)

Some information from the link above:

According to the NTSB, the helicopter was flying too high.

The flight traffic data that NTSB had obtained confirms that the helicopter was flying at 300 feet according to the air traffic control display, which is 100 feet more than it should be flying in the nation's capital.

ADS-B is advanced technology that helps track aircraft location, which according to Cruz is more accurate than what appears on a radar.

As of tight now, Ronald Reagan National Airport is seeing 26 flights fly out per hour, rather than the 28 flights it previusly saw.

The FAA is also reviewing other airports that receive large volumes of air traffic.

According to a new FAA Advisory, helicopters are not allowed to be in the same area as civilian planes around Ronald Reagan National Airport until late February.

That was laid out very well. I don’t fly and I understood what you were talking about.

The only thing I can think of would be it’s not part of requalification.

  Question for our (older) chopper pilots.  If a chopper was say 100 feet below a commercial jet path at takeoff , could the back wash(?) from the jet cause problems for the chopper.  :-\

                                                 da prez

Well, I probably qualify (although I hate admitting it).

Having never done that, I'm only offering an opinion (a SWAG).   

There are too many variables to consider but, it's doubtful in my opinion but, much would be determined by the environmental conditions and the intersect/courses, speed and a lot of other factors I may not have considered of the two aircraft.   

My only (very different similarity) would be flying a Scout helicopter (small and light weight) near a Chinook.   I have actually seen the rotor wash of a Chinook hovering past a Scout that was running but sitting firmly planted on the ground being spun around due to that rotor wash.    Scared the heck out of the Scout Pilot.

So, IMHO such an encounter would not in all probability other than similar to flying through a bit of turbulence which is pretty normal just flying a helicopter.  Although, having such a near miss would definitely get my attention.

Rams

This is my take, had to wait until most all tried to figure it out. Rams has very good thoughts on it. Being a chopper pilot you get a better out look. I did not pilot, i was a crew chief , scout on a Loach in Nam.. Did nighthawk  on a Huey with night vision which was just a shadow or figure. Was not good equipment. My point to all this, why was there not 4 crew members on the Blackhawk. It was made for 2 pilots and 2 crew chiefs. Another set of eyes on the other side would have been looking, just maybe, where that plane was. Why would you fly in that congested air space with only 75% vision. 25% more would have made a big difference. We never left the ground with out 100% crew. When they said there was 3 military deaths I asked my wife where is number 4. Someone dropped the ball. common sense is uncommon.

The prop wash even from our high bird a cobra would get your attention. When we would be heading out our cobra pilots waited until we were clear or in the air. Never fly close behind one on take off because we went balls to wall most of the time. We had the best job no brass or news folks screwed with us.

Agreed, the down wash of a rotor system would get one's attention.  Chinooks were by far the most dangerous to hover around, once in flight (if you were trail) staying above and/or behind a Chinook a couple rotor discs was normally safe.

Reference flying close behind that commercial jet should have provided some turbulence but nothing a good pilot couldn't handle.  That's just my opinion, I've never tried anything like that.  

Rams

Very near miss this morning in Chicago...

ATC radio traffic released. Surprisingly very calm and no cussing. I suspect the cockpit voice recorder would tell a different story... O.o


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6Mp9aUJaTY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6Mp9aUJaTY)

I reported earlier, that all those helicopters going to and from Davison Army Airfield fly right over (or very close) to my house, to and from DCA or the Pentagon, for years.  Since the big accident, I've only noticed 2 or 3 helicopter flights at all.   

I just heard this (well read it on the news ticker) on Newsmax.  

"Helicopter route has been permanently closed near D. C. airport"

I assume (yes I know) this is related to the route used by the Helicopter that was involved in this accident.

Updated March 29, 2025:  I cannot verify this is a correct statement.  In fact, last night, I heard that they had changed something but not prevented or closed the "Helicopter Route" in question.

I'm a patriotic guy and unflinchingly support our military, but it's kind of nice not having them fly over my house all the time (anymore).  The very occasional helicopters going by are well away from my house, and I'm guessing are going to the Pentagon.  Course I still have the big airliners overhead going to and from DCA all the time, but they are higher and much quieter.

I watch the show "Air Disasters" and it's pretty much turned me off of air transportation.

I do realize statistically speaking, it's the safest form of travel, but still.

It's an interesting show on the research and methods of the NTSB and foreign governments agencies in determining crash causes.

Lately their have quite a bit of new content to explore, unfortunately.

I do look forward to the D.C. Crash, if the military will let them do it.

There will be two investigations, a 'safety investigation' aimed only at involved aircraft safety, and an 'accident investigation' aimed at causes, fault and blame.  The Army and civilian authority may work together on them, or they may be done separately.  Most, but not all of them, will be made public when completed.

I worked as legal advisor on several USAF accident investigations, but never on a safety investigation which doesn't need a legal advisor.  Dealt with money damage claims against the USAF on them too. 

Just saw this on a Facebook News Feed.  Its not directly related to the title of this thread but it is worthy of note in that it concerns a civilian aircraft and a military aircraft.

From the link below:

Delta jet's near miss with military aircraft near DCA reignites safety concerns

A Delta Air Lines jet narrowly avoided a mid-air collision with a U.S. Air Force T-38 military aircraft on Friday near Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport – just miles from the site of a deadly crash in January that killed 67 people.

Delta Flight 2983, an Airbus A319 bound for Minneapolis-St. Paul, had just departed DCA around 3 p.m. when a cockpit warning system, known as a Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System (TCAS), issued a “resolution advisory,” directing pilots to take evasive action.

“On that departure … was there an actual aircraft about 500 ft below us as we came off of DCA?” the Delta pilot asked air traffic control at around 3:18 p.m., according to audio captured by LiveATC.net. “Delta 2983, affirmative,” the controller responded.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2025/03/28/delta-military-near-miss-dca/82712187007/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2025/03/28/delta-military-near-miss-dca/82712187007/)

Another event.  Not an incident just a potential for one.  Involve passenger jet and several military jets.

From the link below:

Passenger flight and Air Force jet diverted from potential collision at DC airport

Some text from the link below:

(AP) - A U.S. passenger flight preparing to leave the nation’s capital and an incoming military jet received instructions to divert and prevent a possible collision, officials said.

Delta Air Lines Flight 2983 was cleared for takeoff at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport on Friday around 3:15 p.m., the same time four U.S. Air Force T-38 Talon aircraft were inbound, the Federal Aviation Administration said in a statement.

The jets were heading for a flyover of Arlington National Cemetery when the Delta aircraft received an onboard alert of a nearby aircraft. Air traffic controllers “issued corrective instructions to both aircraft,” according to the FAA, which intends to investigate.

The Airbus A319 with 131 passengers, two pilots and three flight attendants was embarking on a regularly scheduled flight between Reagan and Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport, Delta Airlines said.

https://www.wistv.com/2025/03/29/passenger-flight-air-force-jet-diverted-potential-collision-dc-airport/?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=organicclicks&tbref=hp (https://www.wistv.com/2025/03/29/passenger-flight-air-force-jet-diverted-potential-collision-dc-airport/?utm_source=taboola&utm_medium=organicclicks&tbref=hp)

WTH?

DCA employee charged with assault and battery for air traffic control tower fight

https://www.politico.com/news/2025/03/31/air-traffic-controller-charged-after-scuffle-at-reagan-national-tower-00260941 (https://www.politico.com/news/2025/03/31/air-traffic-controller-charged-after-scuffle-at-reagan-national-tower-00260941)

Kite reportedly makes contact with United flight attempting to land at Reagan National Airport

https://www.foxnews.com/us/kite-reportedly-makes-contact-united-flight-attempting-land-reagan-national-airport (https://www.foxnews.com/us/kite-reportedly-makes-contact-united-flight-attempting-land-reagan-national-airport)

Follow up report from the New York Times, dated April 27, 2025.

It is not, apparently, an official option from those investigating but more information about what and maybe why. 

Here is a link to the information.

https://thelibertydaily.com/female-black-hawk-pilot-who-crashed-airliner-made/ (https://thelibertydaily.com/female-black-hawk-pilot-who-crashed-airliner-made/)

Pilot ignored repeated warnings from co-pilot (15 seconds before collision) that they needed to avert and change course.  Sure seems like pilot error for the 67 lives lost in the crash.

Hay  8)
Jimmyt

Just an update from something I saw on the news today.

Headline from the link below:

Two planes were forced to avoid a helicopter bound for the Pentagon Army Heliport

Some text from the link below:

Two planes had to perform "go-arounds" to avoid crashing into a military helicopter on Thursday at Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport (DCA), where a commercial plane and a Black Hawk Army helicopter collided in January, killing 67 people.

At about 2:30 p.m., air traffic control instructed a Delta Air Lines Airbus A319 and a Republic Airways Embraer E170 to perform "go-arounds" at DCA due to a U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter inbound to the Pentagon Army Heliport, according to statements from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).

The FAA said the Black Hawk was a Priority Air Transport helicopter.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/two-planes-do-go-arounds-avoid-military-helicopter-near-reagan-washington-national-airport (https://www.foxnews.com/us/two-planes-do-go-arounds-avoid-military-helicopter-near-reagan-washington-national-airport)

And there is this "thought" from the link above:

The aircraft "took a scenic route around the Pentagon versus proceeding directly from the west to the heliport" prompting controllers to call for two go-arounds, Politico reported, citing an email written Friday by Chris Senn, FAA’s assistant administrator for government and industry affairs.

I found this link as well from InfoWars. 

https://www.infowars.com/posts/two-more-near-misses-with-black-hawk-at-reagan-airport-as-faa-steps-in/ (https://www.infowars.com/posts/two-more-near-misses-with-black-hawk-at-reagan-airport-as-faa-steps-in/)