Gas generator to power home when there are power outtages

[..]

Do you have a tool that can be used to "sense" the presence of voltage on the output side of the breaker?

This is the one I use to ensure power is off before working on a circuit.  It has proven to be very reliable.

https://www.amazon.com/Fluke-1LAC-Voltage-Detector-1000V/dp/B00ATGPRRQ/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1544539025&sr=8-5&keywords=ac+power+detector

Bought mine at Lowes. 

I cannot think of a rational reason for your problem, particularly the problem with receptacles unless it is related, in some way, to the breakers. 

There is another thought, The AC coming in is in two phases with a neutral.  Power in the breaker panel is, if I remember correctly, distributed from one phase and then the other as in every other breaker.  So, if the power issues occur on every other breaker then it could be phase related to the main breaker. 

To troubleshoot, you will need the tool and then test the output side of every breaker in the panel to see if there is a pattern to the events. 

It's not every other breaker and me having anything to do with electricity is a big NO. My brain doesn't understand it's workings.

[bill-jr]

The breaker trip as soon as you turn them on ?
How many breakers ?
Try and flip the breakers back on not rhe main but the indicidual breakers . .
Not like a hundred times or anything just flip them on if trip again flip back on one more time . . .
Electricity is not that difficult hell if i can make a living at it .. .. ..
And im thinking you have some gfis someplace? ?
 prob garage kitchen and bathroom . . .
Is it a newer house ? ?
how to screenshot on windows 7

Any of your breakers similar to this ? ? ? With the little test button ? ?

[bill-jr]

One gfci in a down stairs bathroom could run all recetacles in all other bathrroms . .
And one behind the fridge or something could run others in the kitchen .  .

[The emperor has no clothes]

The breaker trip as soon as you turn them on ?
How many breakers ?
Try and flip the breakers back on not rhe main but the indicidual breakers . .
Not like a hundred times or anything just flip them on if trip again flip back on one more time . . .
Electricity is not that difficult hell if i can make a living at it .. .. ..
And im thinking you have some gfis someplace? ?
 prob garage kitchen and bathroom . . .

I think they are required nowadays when they the home inspections for a new mortgage.

[..]

Breakers do not have have test buttons.

[..]

Bedrooms 2 and 3. No ceiling light, fan or receptacles working.

Living, dining room no lights of fans working but receptacles do.

No outside lights by the 2 doors work. No porch light.

No Gfci anywhere.

[carolinarider09]

There is a picture of his breaker panel here.

https://postimg.cc/68Bx7GDF

Britman- are the loads you identified

Bedrooms 2 and 3. No ceiling light, fan or receptacles working.

Living, dining room no lights of fans working but receptacles do.

No outside lights by the 2 doors work. No porch light.


The same as the loads identified on the panel as

Dinning Lights, Back Porch
Bedroom
Living Room Light/Floods?

[..]

There is a picture of his breaker panel here.

https://postimg.cc/68Bx7GDF

Britman- are the loads you identified

Bedrooms 2 and 3. No ceiling light, fan or receptacles working.

Living, dining room no lights of fans working but receptacles do.

No outside lights by the 2 doors work. No porch light.


The same as the loads identified on the panel as

Dinning Lights, Back Porch
Bedroom
Living Room Light/Floods?

Not at home right now but I think so.

[Robert]

I did not take time to read the whole thread so forgive me if this was covered. I also did not take the time to see if the working items are on one leg of the gen breaker but that could be your problem. One leg of the 220 could be working not both. It takes 2 , 110 to make 220 and since one 110 leg of 220 powers some things and the other leg of 220  going to 110 powers other things see if only one leg of the 220 is working, if the setup in the pic that was posted is what you have. A 220 breaker is 2 110's joined with a common handle thats all.

An easy test if you have 220 coming into the house is try to run something that is 220 if its slow or does not work at all then its possible its only running on 110. Be careful what you choose to test on somethings dont like to run at half power.

  The gen has a breaker make sure that they 2 breakers joined are allowing the power from the gen to pass and you have both legs powered.

  You have to see if maybe all you have to do is reset the breakers since you may only have power to one leg of the 220 but in any case you need to start to see if you have both legs of the gen working also that come into the panel. Easy to test if you remove the panel cover and use your test light to see if both legs of the breaker have power going into the panel from the generator.

Think of warm water, it takes hot and cold combined to make warm if either one is missing you will get either hot or cold. Similar with power one leg missing it will only power some things. Houses are typically wired so that if one leg of the 220 goes down you wont be in total darkness or without power so they seemingly helter skelter wire things on different legs in each room. If you have a 220 outlet and only one tester for 110 you can also test from there by seeing what the 3 or 4 holes register. If you have only one hole that shows power you only have one leg of the 220 working.

[carolinarider09]

Picture of the breaker panel

https://postimg.cc/68Bx7GDF

Britman says he believes the loads that don't have power are on the left hand side of the panel, the ones below the generator input breaker. 

I was trying to think of a logical reason these three breakers/loads would be affected by something having to do with the input breakers setting. 

As memory serves, and its sort of backed up by the breaker panel layout, the breakers are connected to the two phases coming in in an alternating sequence.  If one phase were improperly connected the three loads down below the input breakers would not be all out (i.e. no power being supplied) just one or two, in an alternating sequence.  So, I guess I don't have a clue right now as to what, if any, common cause such as loss of one phase, might be at play here.

[..]

Picture of the breaker panel

https://postimg.cc/68Bx7GDF

Britman says he believes the loads that don't have power are on the left hand side of the panel, the ones below the generator input breaker. 

I was trying to think of a logical reason these three breakers/loads would be affected by something having to do with the input breakers setting. 

As memory serves, and its sort of backed up by the breaker panel layout, the breakers are connected to the two phases coming in in an alternating sequence.  If one phase were improperly connected the three loads down below the input breakers would not be all out (i.e. no power being supplied) just one or two, in an alternating sequence.  So, I guess I don't have a clue right now as to what, if any, common cause such as loss of one phase, might be at play here.

That photo is of the generator panel.

My problem is with the house panel.

The 3 breakers are bottom left stacked on top of each other. Little boogers.

[..]

This is the regular panel. It's the 3 in the middle.

[Jess from VA]

I'm stumped too.

When the electrician comes, do not fail to show him the complete generator layout and how connected/run.

I don't get why breakers aren't popping if power is out on certain circuits.  

I'd be leery of leaving the breakers on for any circuits (mysteriously) not working. (beyond testing) (especially if I left the house)

It's common and usual to have ceiling lights/fans on different circuits than all the wall plugs in the same rooms.

You do not need another deja vu all over again.  (fire)

[..]

You do not need another deja vu all over again.  (fire)

I will flick them off RIGHT NOW. Thanks.

[Robert]

Didn't realize you had a generator panel, normally when you do a panel for a genset you do not wire up all the circuits from the house on it. So as not to overload the generator you only hook up certain circuits.

[bill-jr]

Three bad breakers ?!
Hard to believe but possible ?!
Maybe the way its hooked up it was backfeeding these breakers and toasted them ?
Maybe you have to turn all inside breakers and the main off then the outside gen panel on ?!
I cant see how that would have happened but maybe ?!

[..]

Three bad breakers ?!
Hard to believe but possible ?!
Maybe the way its hooked up it was backfeeding these breakers and toasted them ?
Maybe you have to turn all inside breakers and the main off then the outside gen panel on ?!
I cant see how that would have happened but maybe ?!

I turned off all the breakers
I turned the main off.
I plugged in the genny
I started the genny
I made the cord live
I threw the gen panel main
I threw the gen breakers one by one starting with the smallest

[..]

Electrician coming on the 20th.

[bill-jr]

Very interested to see the findings...

[..]

Very interested to see the findings...

Electricity is the work of the devil 

local guy was just here.

Took the cover off both panels.

The  breakers that "didn't work" on the house panel weren't connected to anything. 

The corresponding breakers on the fuse panel were off. Turned them on and Hey Presto let there be light.

He told me it was done that way to avoid fitting an expensive transfer switch and was to code.

He kindly only charged me a token fee as he does work for a couple of builders I've got to know locally.

[Jess from VA]

The  breakers that "didn't work" on the house panel weren't connected to anything.  Grin

I'm glad you got it sorted out Paul.

So when I suggested you turn off non-working circuits, those were the ones not hooked up?  (Make sure you mark everything on the panel correctly, memory is no substitute.)

Good deal on the token fee.

None of that stuff is marked Lucas, is it?   

On a serious note, it's good to know your generator hookup and use was not the cause of anything bad.

[carolinarider09]

I think I finally see what you said.

The generator panel was added on after the main panel was in service.

To provide power to a selected group of items from the generator, those items were disconnected from the main panel and added to the generator panel.

Then, power from the main source was connected to the generator panel and interlocked with the input from the generator.

That way, a selected group of items could be powered from the generator without having to do much switching and no questions about the possibility of "cross feeding" the main circuit from the generator circuit.  

An interesting approach.  And thanks for keeping us informed.  Knowledge is power and we all know more thanks to your feedback.

[Robert]

He told me it was done that way to avoid fitting an expensive transfer switch and was to code.

Gee I wont say that I told you so but 

[shortleg]

     I have one converted to use natural gas and had a hook up installed on deck.
 This way I will not be looking for fuel of any kind.

[carolinarider09]

Just wanted to bring this topic back to the top incase someone might be interested givien Hurricane Dorian. 

[Rams]

Just wanted to bring this topic back to the top incase someone might be interested givien Hurricane Dorian.  

I for one, appreciate you reviving this thread.   Since I've moved to Southern Mississippi (not very far from the Gulf of Mexico) and this area is called the Pine Belt, I can easily see strong winds blowing some of those damn Pine trees into and knocking down the power lines.   So, even before Dorian, I was looking at generators.

I already have a 3500kw Onan but, have never had a need for it.  I just have it.   But, 3500KW is just not enough juice to power up everything I will want power to.   It'll keep the frig up and some lights but, better get used to cold showers.   Then again, according to my spouse, I could use a cold shower now and then but, that's another issue.

What I have just about decided on is a PTO driven generator, 7500KW.   My diesel tractor will be used to drive it.  Thinking this will do and get us through any power outages.    I also feel better about this choice because, I always keep extra fuel (diesel) on hand for the tractor and my trucks, this will eliminate the need for another gas engine and I won't have to keep another battery maintained.   May not be the answer for everyone but, I'm thinking it'll work for me.   Additionally, it's cheaper than buying a generator with an engine.   I could be wrong and would appreciate anyone mentioning what I may have not considered.

Rams

[carolinarider09]

An excellent idea and I had forgotten all about that option.  I have a 1998 MF1250 that I use around the property for mowing, grading, towing, ect.  I think it's 32HP.  Its only got 550 hours on it so running it for 24 hours a day for three or four days would not even double those hours. 

And, even these small or subcompact tractors, are designed to sort of sit there.  I mean they don't need to be moving to keep the engine cool and diesel keeps a long time.  And the only issue I could see would be "frequency" control which is dependent on speed my tractor's speed is fairly stable. 

And the price.  10KW $1,700. 

As I said, the only issue I can see is the output frequency.  How stable is it?

[Rams]

An excellent idea and I had forgotten all about that option.  I have a 1998 MF1250 that I use around the property for mowing, grading, towing, ect.  I think it's 32HP.  Its only got 550 hours on it so running it for 24 hours a day for three or four days would not even double those hours.  

And, even these small or subcompact tractors, are designed to sort of sit there.  I mean they don't need to be moving to keep the engine cool and diesel keeps a long time.  And the only issue I could see would be "frequency" control which is dependent on speed my tractor's speed is fairly stable.  

And the price.  10KW $1,700.  

As I said, the only issue I can see is the output frequency.  How stable is it?

Well, I'm no expert on this topic.  But, according to everything I have researched, they are dependable and stable.   They are all designed to run at 540 PTO rpm so, expect some diesel noise.   I found the one I like at Northern Tool.   I have a sub-compact 16 horse three cylinder Ford 1210, it has been very dependable but, you can bet your bippy you don't want to run out of fuel.   Not a huge deal but, it's no fun getting that injection pump back up and pumping if you let it run out.

It will be somewhat more expensive to operate versus a gas due to the cost of diesel but, it will take a lot of run hours to make it cost more than a gas generator.   Additionally, generators get stolen all the time, I don't think (could be wrong) that a potential thief will try to steal this PTO driven generator unless he has a couple of friends to help him lift it.  They ain't light weight.

Rams

[3W-lonerider]

if your going to run a generator off of a tractor, your going to need to make damn sure the throttle is set perfectly. to achieve the proper voltage out of the generator.
yes it will make electric if the tractor is just idling {but} the revolutions of the generator will either increase or decrease the output. also the more load you put on the generator the faster your going to have to spin it to maintain that voltage. what i would do is start the generator and check output, then turn on everything your going to run and check the output again, and i bet you'll have to increase the speed. only problem with this setup is when your refrigerator starts or you turn something on thats high spike till it runs then your going to brown out till the spike is over. which will burn out compressors on refrigerators and freezers. we have belt driven 7500k generators on our boom lifts. i can plug into the 110 in the platform and use a analizer to turn the engine up and down and while i do that i can watch the 110 voltage go from 50 watt to 175 watt. just because of engine speed.
you also said that it run on 540 rpm. if thats the case its possible that it has internal circuts that will regulate the voltage without having to regulate the rpm. if thats the case then your good, but i would deffenatly check into that. to see if thats the case.

[Rams]

if your going to run a generator off of a tractor, your going to need to make damn sure the throttle is set perfectly. to achieve the proper voltage out of the generator.
yes it will make electric if the tractor is just idling {but} the revolutions of the generator will either increase or decrease the output. also the more load you put on the generator the faster your going to have to spin it to maintain that voltage. what i would do is start the generator and check output, then turn on everything your going to run and check the output again, and i bet you'll have to increase the speed. only problem with this setup is when your refrigerator starts or you turn something on thats high spike till it runs then your going to brown out till the spike is over. which will burn out compressors on refrigerators and freezers. we have belt driven 7500k generators on our boom lifts. i can plug into the 110 in the platform and use a analizer to turn the engine up and down and while i do that i can watch the 110 voltage go from 50 watt to 175 watt. just because of engine speed.
you also said that it run on 540 rpm. if thats the case its possible that it has internal circuts that will regulate the voltage without having to regulate the rpm. if thats the case then your good, but i would deffenatly check into that. to see if thats the case.

Rick,
Appreciate the words of wisdom, will research and/or ask the question.  
PM sent.

Rams

[carolinarider09]

Yes, to my knowledge a general statement of fact is that the frequency produced by a "standard" AC generator is proportional to the shaft speed. 

As you add more load to a generator, turning say at 1800 RPM, it will tend to slow down.  How much it tends to slow down depends on the mass of the generator and its driver.  The driver responds to this change in speed by adding more fuel (diesel, gas, steam, water depending on the thing driving it). 

My tractor has a hand throttle and a foot throttle.  I never use the foot throttle.  The tractor has a very narrow "green band" of operation that relates to 540 RPM at the PTO shaft.  My tractor’s RPM is fairly stable in my experience, almost always staying in the narrow green band as I change load (generally by engaging the clutch or the PTO for the bush hog).

 It is this “throttle” response that is key in maintaining output frequency (and voltage to some degree)  But this is true for all generators. 

The size of the tractors engine compared to the change in load will have an affect on the tractors response to load changes.  Large engines, with more moving mass, will be more tolerate of large load changes and the generators frequency response.

The output voltage is controlled by simply applying more current to the field which also has a impact on the torque required to turn the generators shaft. 

[Jess from VA]

Just for a little comedy relief.

You know Red Green can make electricity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdabt8Z661o

[Rams]

Just for a little comedy relief.

You know Red Green can make electricity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdabt8Z661o

There may be many things in life I would seek your advice on, this is probably not one of them. 

Rams 

[carolinarider09]

Doing some additional research on a couple of "Tractor" forums I found lots of information.  A lot of it was from four or five years ago but I found this recent document from the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs (2019). 

PDF version

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/engineer/facts/00-059.pdf

On line version

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/engineer/facts/00-059.htm

[Rams]

Most tractor instrument panels include a tachometer to indicate the engine speed required to deliver 540 (or 1000) PTO rpm. As Chart 3 shows, these tachometers were extremely inaccurate. For the requested speed of 540 rpm, actual speeds ranged from 450 rpm (-17%) to 600 rpm (+11%). These extremes, if unadjusted while operating the generator, would result in frequency variations from a low of 50 Hz to a high of 67 Hz.

Rick and I discussed this in a phone call.   He advised me to buy a tach instrument to check to ensure I was actually getting that 540 rpm at the PTO driveshaft.   Seems like darn good advice.

This is his recommendation: https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Photo-Laser-Tachometer-Contact/dp/B001N4QY66/ref=mp_s_a_1_7?keywords=digital+tachometer+small+engine&qid=1567303240&s=gateway&sprefix=digital+tach&sr=8-7

Rams

[carolinarider09]

One of the things the report pointed out was the difference between real and actual PTO RPM.  I always though it was pretty easy to measure engine RPM and that PTO rpm would be easy to determine based on gearing in the transmission.  

But that appears to be just a guess.  

I'd rather have a good voltage/frequency ready out to actually measure the generators output or rather monitor it as the generator is in use.  

Then comes the question of analog (meters) vs digital.  It looks like most of the PTO generators have a digital readout (LEDs) for frequency.  The problem with LEDs is that they don't have a real way of showing actual response.  I mean a digital meter tries to show a change but an analog meter's needle will dip or go up as inputs change almost instantly.  

So, my suggestion would be an analog meter to measure frequency and voltage from your generator.  PTO shaft speed is important but the real important factors are the generators output.

Also the report reminded me that the PTO horsepower is not the same as the engines horsepower.  In my case the PTO horsepower (as stated by the manufacture which appears to be an estimate) is 23.1.

So, a PTO generator in my case should assume an available horsepower of 20 would be a 10KW generator.  Cost about $1,700.

In my case this appears to be a good choice.

https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/IMD-PTO-10-2S-AVR-PTO-Generator/p5887.html

Added fuel consumption estimates baed on generator load.  Is an issue for 24/7 power on smaller tractors.

https://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/Diesel_Fuel_Consumption.aspx

[cookiedough]

If I lived along the coast or where more power outages are frequent,  I would be buying a fairly large gas generator just in case I would ever need it.  Was going to buy a mid-sized gas one on sale for like 250-300 bucks was over retail 400 bucks but decided not to since have not needed one in past 25 years ever.  Camping, etc. would be nice but unless you buy a quiet inverter type one most campgrounds am sure would frown on a louder normal gas generator if other campers nearby complaining about noise level.

[Wizzard]

In 41 years in the same house my electricity went out twice and was back on in a couple of hours. I see not reason to invest in one in my area.

[MarkT]

Breakers do not have have test buttons.

The breaker on the panel powering my hot tub does.