Gas generator to power home when there are power outtages

[carolinarider09]

And just for the record.  I have considered but not acted on the installation of a permanent AC Generator.  The only way I would do a permanent one is with an Auto Transfer unit that is basically a break before make switch to turn off the main power and then turn on the generator power.

When I built my house I did add an outside receptacle for a generator with its own switch panel and plugs located at strategic locations.  Refrigerator, TV and upstairs.  To use the setup just add a generator, turn on the switches, unplug the devices and connect them to the generator supplied outlets.

A manual transfer switch. 

If I got a permanent generator it would be natural gas powered (I have a line big enough) and would have the auto disconnect switch.  I have looked at Generac or a Kohler.  I would lean toward the Kohler and probably a 16KW.  And remember the size of he natural gas supply line to your house needs to be big enough to accommodate the generator's needs.  I have heard that a one inch NG line is needed.

I did the calculations once and the cost of running the generator would be about $80 a day.  I think no load is still about 40%.

And natural gas is less productive than LP gas.  A 16kw Kohler would only produce 14KW on natural gas.   

[gordonv]

I like the idea of a propane powered generator.

You don't have to worry about the fuel going bad.

I worked for Telus (our National phone company now) back in 08' when they switched over their diesel generators on mountain tops, which powered the microwave towers for coast-to-coast communication, while they where switching over to propane.

They would helicopter whole tanks to mountain tops, carry in smaller bottles of propane in emergencies and the like (walk, drive & snowmobile). This kind of fuel would also be great for home emergency use, along with using it for other things (heat, cooking, etc).

[carolinarider09]

From what I have read Propane keeps forever.  The only issues, when I was looking into it, was getting the tank and having it filled.  Lots of company's want to rent you a tank and then there is the fillup. 

As I remember if I were to purchase the tank and have it filled it was very expensive (assuming a whole house generator).

Diesel fuel, as I remember it, keeps for a year or more with out losing much of its potency.  There appear to be ways to extend that.

Thats why, if you can, natural gas is the way to go.  The issue with natural gas is line failure in an emergency.  Most companies "pack the lines" prior to an event to minimize impact on customers and most of the stations that pressurize the lines have onsite back up power.   

Gasoline, as others have noted, has a very short shelf life and you can't do much to extend it (there are additives and the ethanol free gas is better I have read).

[semo97]

You can buy refurbished propane tanks cheaper then new ones. The propane company's give you that song and dance about renting because they want you to use only them and there propane, and you have too. Owning your own gives you leverage on buying from other companies. You can contract 6 months ahead of time, watch the down times for propane and they will drop the price. I know of one refurbish company that is around OKC. Long way for you. When I was in Rye Co. area they brought in natural gas for the town and many switched to NG and there was 200 500 gal. tanks just sitting in a lot rusting away.

[Jess from VA]

One downside with propane (as I noted in my old post above) is that the ordinary 20lb small (barbecue size) tanks tend to freeze up and won't flow reliably in cold weather.  Not a problem with a big tank. 

I didn't have a big tank (and on my 1/3 acre in suburbia I didn't want one), and I wasn't going to keep 10-15 tanks in my house to keep them warm (a potential bomb) (and most of our power outages is winter ice storms).  We don't have the worst winters, but my research showed it was cold enough to be a regular problem, so I could not go propane.   

Though many generators can be converted from gas to propane, and many now come new as convertible to either propane or gas (parts included). 

[sheets]

Gasoline, as others have noted, has a very short shelf life and you can't do much to extend it (there are additives and the ethanol free gas is better I have read).

------------------------
I purchase ethanol free gas in five gallon cans for the generator. Supposedly good for two years. I'll use the year old stuff in scooter and lawnmower in the coming weeks and purchase a couple fresh cans for winter use.

[Rams]

I have a big 8750 w Predator generator from Harbor freight.

Had the same unit twice now.   Did the job but pretty noisy.  
Not knocking it but, similar to our fat ladies, it hard to beat a Honda.....

Rams

[Pappy!]

I have a Generac for the house. First question to you is do you have a 30A or 50A plug for the house? That needs to be answered before you choose a generator.
Mine is 5500W continuous and lasts all night on the fuel.
I ran mine day and night for 7 days last year after the hurricane.
I could run the hot water heater if I turned off enough other stuff. Once the water was hot I could switch off the HWH and turn on the well pump and power showers.
Plenty of power to run fridge and ceiling fans and at night I hook up a portable AC unit for the bedroom. You may want to look into one for your house.....makes a LOT of difference in how well you rest in a hot house.
Once the need was done I drain the fuel from the tank, the fuel line, and the carb and spray the inside of the tank with Boshield and WD-40 in the carb bowl. Change oil, cover the generator and keep it dry.

[Jess from VA]

Gasoline, as others have noted, has a very short shelf life and you can't do much to extend it (there are additives and the ethanol free gas is better I have read).

------------------------
I purchase ethanol free gas in five gallon cans for the generator. Supposedly good for two years. I'll use the year old stuff in scooter and lawnmower in the coming weeks and purchase a couple fresh cans for winter use.

I also buy no corn-polluted gas (15-20 gallons), and I treat it anyway with marine stabil (real hot summers is hard on gas), but I won't keep it for 2 or even one year.  I'll run it in my bikes, truck and lawn equipment to draw it down in 6 to 10 months.  Then replenish.  I keep the generator bone dry.

I have something like 21 carburetors, and my plan is working.

[Pappy!]

After a hurricane you pretty much have to buy whatever gasoline you are lucky enough to find..........

[..]

I have a Generac for the house. First question to you is do you have a 30A or 50A plug for the house?

I don't know. Will check tomorrow. thank you.

No problem with AC here cause winter is the problem.

[DGS65]

I got a tripower portable 8500w unit I have never put gas into it I run a gas line out to the back yard and installed a transfer switch with a plug to plug into simple easy and cheap and a fraction to price of a whole house unit.  I had a gas line near where I needed for my BBQ I was able to tap into the feed without spending a lot of money.  I recently installed a gas fireplace and this required running a larger feed so I upgraded the feed for the generator at this time.  I have only had to use it once but it was for a several day outage and I didn't have to run for hard to find fuel!

[..]

Generator fuse panel

Shows 60 amp for Main Breaker and 30 for generator.

Do I move the 60 and then the 30 once the generator is plugged in and running?





External plug for generator feed.

[..]

Hurricane Florence is looming.

Hurricane Irma hammered NE GA last year and lots of people were without power for a week.

[carolinarider09]

Generator fuse panel

Shows 60 amp for Main Breaker and 30 for generator.

Do I move the 60 and then the 30 once the generator is plugged in and running?



I have never seen a whole house panel powered that way.  Usually the main (incoming) power breaker is separated from the load breakers.

I also have to make several assumptions as to how it is wired.  Making those assumptions and given the way the interlock tab is wired I would suggest the following.

Transferring power to the generator.

Power up the generator and let it idle.
Open the two "Main" breakers
Close the two "Generator" breakers

You also have several other options to ensure you do not overload the generator

You can open breakers to "non essential" loads before you switch power supplies

You can re-close these breakers, one at a time, after the generator assumes the load.

The load reduction steps are over cautious steps but, since the process of transferring the power is purely manual, you have control and can ensure an easy transfer of power.

External plug for generator feed.

[Jess from VA]

I made my cord, but it needed to be about 40 feet.

I recall 10 gauge soft flexible cord and two male four prong twist 220 plugs. (no walking around with a live plug, generator is plugged in last)

Electrical supply house, parts not available at home depot.

You should have asked the seller or owner to explain that box setup in detail.  Maybe you still can.

Maybe it's self explanatory. (but I'm ignorant).

On my heavy-up 200amp svs box, I have to throw the main twin (believe 100amp breakers) OFF (to not back feed the pole), then I throw the twin (believe 50 amp) generator breakers ON (to let the juice into the house).  The twin generator switches are always off until needed.

From past experience, before I go on line, I knock off all 220 circuits for the duration (since the generator won't power them), and knock off all or most of my other house 120 circuits... then, after the generator is running and plugged in, I bring the house circuits up one by one, slowly.  (Of course you want to be sure you don't have anything with a big load like a coffeemaker or microwave or window unit AC on when you go on line)

In the past, I left all the house circuits on when plugging in, and the sudden big load to the generator bogged it down and stalled it occasionally.

The refrigerator surge when first switched on is a big load, and I have two. They do not get unplugged at the wall, and when you plug in the generator and bring those circuits up, they need full surge amps available.   

[..]

Well bugger me.

Home Depot will sell you a generator at my local one but of course they don't have any generator power cords on the shelf. Not sold out just don't stock them 

I now have 15 gallons of corn free gas.

Saw 2 other older guys filling gas cans this morning.

[carolinarider09]

Just for the record, 220 volt breakers are generally the ganged breakers  (two breakers connected by a metal or other device to cause them to operate as one) and I agree with Jess about that.

You have to remember, when you turn on something in your house or your A/C or HVAC system powers up, somewhere, somehow, the load is instantaneously picked up by the grid.  There are hundreds of generators on the grid so the load is sort of evenly spread across all those large spinning devices.

But when you are powering your loads from a small local generator, it is the only device that will be picking up the new load and it has to increase fuel flow to the engine to keep it spinning at the required speed to supply 60Hz and the necessary voltage.  So prudence in what you power and how it is powered is very important.

[carolinarider09]

Well bugger me.

Home Depot will sell you a generator at my local one but of course they don't have any generator power cords on the shelf. Not sold out just don't stock them 

I now have 15 gallons of corn free gas.

Saw 2 other older guys filling gas cans this morning.

Should be easy to build one.  My local store has all the needed stuff.  Maybe $100 for a 40 foot cord.

[..]

Just for the record, 220 volt breakers are generally the ganged breakers  (two breakers connected by a metal or other device to cause them to operate as one) and I agree with Jess about that.

You have to remember, when you turn on something in your house or your A/C or HVAC system powers up, somewhere, somehow, the load is instantaneously picked up by the grid.  There are hundreds of generators on the grid so the load is sort of evenly spread across all those large spinning devices.

But when you are powering your loads from a small local generator, it is the only device that will be picking up the new load and it has to increase fuel flow to the engine to keep it spinning at the required speed to supply 60Hz and the necessary voltage.  So prudence in what you power and how it is powered is very important.

 

Thanks.

[Smokinjoe-VRCCDS#0005]

Make sure you're confident about the way it switches over so there no possibility
of the electric company men getting shocked because your house is hot...

-Mike

We worked a tornado in west Tennessee in 1998 a local lineman was killed from this. The house was back feeding to the main line.

[..]

Make sure you're confident about the way it switches over so there no possibility
of the electric company men getting shocked because your house is hot...

-Mike

We worked a tornado in west Tennessee in 1998 a local lineman was killed from this. The house was back feeding to the main line.

I will turn the house "off" before doing anything with the gennie.

[carolinarider09]

Edit - I WAS INCORRECT in some of the below.  

You need to be very very careful in making any assumptions on how you can just plug and play the generator you have shown into your already available connector.

The generator you have provided a picture of will provide 30 Amps at 120 VAC.  NOT 240VAC.

The breaker panel you have shown us has two breakers tied together with an interlock  This indicates that one breaker provides 120 VAC and the other breaker provides 120 VAC from a different wire from the power source.  Potential between these two supply wires will be 240 VAC with a third wire acting as the  neutral return wire and a fourth wire as ground.  

When normal power enters your house it uses three wires one of these wires is a "Neutral"  Inside the breaker box a fourth wire is added from the ground pole usually located just below the meter.    I have seen some circuit boxes that apply the ground and natural to the same bus bar.  Effectively making them a "common" circuit.

Having said all that, and there are assumptions here without physically checking the circuits which I would do, you can use the generator but, and this is a big but, you will only be able to supply half of the loads on that breaker panel.

[carolinarider09]

I think I've found one.

https://www.amazon.com/Parkworld-886009-L5-30P-L14-30R-Transfer/dp/B075VT5TC9?psc=1&SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&tag=duckduckgo-d-20&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B075VT5TC9


Seems like most expect you to buy a 4 x 4 and then an adapter as well.

Gotta screw that extra few dollars out of people.

EDIT

Well F ME BACKWARDS.

The right angle on the male is on the wrong side of the prong.

F ME.

I had to edit my original post. 

I looked at the cable you provided a link to.  It states "Generator L14 30 AMP 4-prong locking female connector (X-pole connected to Y-pole ,two hots bridged)"

It will not work and I would not suggest you use it to power the panel.

Normal service into your home is consists of a red wire (one phase of 120 VAC) a black wire (other phase of 120 VAC) and a white wire or neutral.

Voltage between red and white wires is 120 VAC.  Voltage between the black and white wire is 120 VAC but (and a big big but) the voltage between the red and black wires is 240 VAC.  Also, to make the voltage appear to be 240 VAC, the phase between the red wire and the black wire and neutral is 180 degrees out of phase.

See the picture at the link below.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xfgbxb9j463j8wm/Screen%20Shot%202018-09-09%20at%203.03.37%20PM.png?dl=0

[Jess from VA]

For me Paul, I needed the 220 4-prong twist to plug into the generator on one side, and another 4-prong twist to plug into the back feed box installed on my outside back wall (across from my backyard generator shed) just outside my indoor panel box on the other side of the wall in my basement utility room.

No one sold this premade, and I had to go to an electrical supply house to get what I needed; wire and two plugs.  I doubt anyone sells 220 extensions with a plug on each end (a good way to get zapped if you don't follow protocol).

I am having another rainmageddon at my house (several inches so far), to continue until tomorrow or the next day.  So far no power loss.  

If this was freezing weather, I'd be F'd BACKWARDS (and running my generator).

Though I'm always hopeful power will come back, so I always wait 2-3 hours before going though all the tap-dance to fire up.

If you use your phone to take pictures of all the relevant plugs, you will get better help at an electrical supply house than Home Depot, Lowes, yada.  Even up here in major suburbia, I had to drive down to the next town south of me to find an electrical supply house.  10miles each way.

As Carolonarider indicated, my cord cost close to $100 in parts, and that was like 15 years ago.

The expensive part was the 40 feet of twisty flexible 10 gauge wire. (middle finger size)

[JimBob]

Hi guys!
I would like to add a couple of points to the discussion that I have not yet seen:

1) Voltage Step-Up.
Make SURE that you are not feeding electricity back into the power grid. Turning off the main breaker or using a transfer switch or similar unit is VITALLY important. If your 110V AC power does feed back, it is 110V....back to the power company transformer on the utility pole, where the transformer steps it back up to their 'line' voltage.  In my area the common line voltages are I think 13,800 volts and 14,400 volts. The transformer steps it down from 13.8KV or 14.4KV on the primary winding down to 220V AC on their secondary winding (a 110V AC 'sine wave' on each of 2 lines, with the 'sine waves' 180 degrees out of phase, so when one leg is +110V, the other is -110V) and feeds that to your house. But...if I recall correctly, transformers work BOTH WAYS with the voltage ratios being in proportion to the number of turns in the primary vs secondary windings.... so if you are back-feeding 110V on one of the lines to the power company transformer, you are powering one half of what is usually the secondary winding, and the transformer steps the voltage UP via what is normally the primary winding, and it goes into THEIR lines somewhere in the 'thousands of volts' range. (Any of you electrical guys chip in and tell us what the approximate voltage would be.) This is DEADLY to a tired, hurried lineman who unthinkingly picks up an apparently 'dead' cable that is down and disconnected from the 'live' power lines..... but which is actually 'live', being back-fed from your generator.
This voltage step-up is what I have not seen mentioned.

BE NICE to your Lineman! Make SURE you are not feeding back into the power grid!

(By the way, I was/am at 'Ground Zero' for 2005's Hurricane Katrina .... I got my Onan-powered Miller welder-5KW generator going again after being flooded in Katrina, and used it for electrical power several hours a day from about 10 September (when I got it going and repaired some of the house wiring) until the power company guys installed new poles and lines and got the power back on, on about 15 November.)
I played both Airplanes AND Motorcycles until Katrina put me out of the airplane hobby (they both lean the 'right' way in turns!..... now I have an 'airplane hanger' full of junk and Motorcycles.)

2) Aviation Gasoline does not form gums and varnishes.
For those of you with Gasoline generators..... and anyone else that has a Gasoline-powered device---- Motorcycle, Chain Saw, Generator, Weedeater, etc., that sits for a long time between uses, and which DOES NOT have an Oxygen Sensor or Catalytic Converter....
Give AVIATION gasoline a try!
The common aviation gasoline available today is called '100LL', which is 100-octane 'Low Lead'.
(No, it will not burn up your engine. 100-octane has more anti-knock properties than lower octane gasoline, but does not 'burn hotter'.) But... this gasoline DOES contain lead.... lots of it..... I think it has about a 'ton' per gallon, and will kill an oxygen sensor or a catalytic converter. The 'Low Lead' designation is because it has less lead than the OLD 100-octane, which apparently had '2 tons' of lead per gallon.

But -HERE is the ADVANTAGE- it DOES NOT form gums and varnishes in storage like automotive gasoline.
If you spill some, it evaporates completely, except for a light stain of blue dye.
I once left aviation gasoline (mixed with 2-stroke oil) in an old outboard motor for FIFTEEN years, and it started on the 4th pull..... the carb was NOT gummed up! (I may have run the gas out of the carb before I put it away, I don't remember, but I tagged the portable 6-gallon 'boat tank' with the date when I put in the fresh avgas-oil mix..... and it started up and ran just fine, fifteen years later!)
... and yes, I would find it hard to believe if I had not DONE IT MYSELF!

[..]

Just spoke with Champion and they tell me I need a generator that is 240v.

The one I thought I ordered yesterday is 120v.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=what+voltage+generator+to+power+a+house%3F&atb=v95-1_f&ia=web

I thought I ordered but I didn't get a confirmation email and when I went back to look at the order the gennie was still in the shopping cart.

Very strange because I went all the way through the Paypal steps to "Place Order".

[Pappy!]

Well thats a good thing!
Now....step it up to around 5500 continuous and you will have your 240V on it.
Lots of folks are very happy with their Predator gennies believe it or not. YouTube seems to bear this out.
When I got mine (Generac) I started it and let it idle for a while then varied the RPM a bit for around an hour. No load.
I then changed oil to get all the break-in debris out of the engine. I think if you do something similar it really doesn't matter what engine you have since it will only be run occasionally.
If I were to buy a gennie for a camper or something I use all the time I would go for a name brand engine (Honda, Yamaha, etc.) Just my thoughts......

[..]

Well thats a good thing!
Now....step it up to around 5500 continuous and you will have your 240V on it.
Lots of folks are very happy with their Predator gennies believe it or not. YouTube seems to bear this out.
When I got mine (Generac) I started it and let it idle for a while then varied the RPM a bit for around an hour. No load.
I then changed oil to get all the break-in debris out of the engine. I think if you do something similar it really doesn't matter what engine you have since it will only be run occasionally.
If I were to buy a gennie for a camper or something I use all the time I would go for a name brand engine (Honda, Yamaha, etc.) Just my thoughts......

I've read quite a few break in scenarios. Will read the manual, yep that's right "man reads manual" . 

[carolinarider09]

Since I have an outdoor connector for a separately wired backup power system and after reading this thread I decided to at least build a cable for a future portable generator.

The connector is a four prong 30 amp male (much like Britman's).  I wen to Lowe's and found a male and female 30 amp connector which appeared to be the right size.

Cable was next.  When I wired my house, three way light switches required 14/3 cable which has four conductors.  One black (hot), one white (neutral), one red (hot three way interface), and one bare (ground).

For a 220/240 supply you will need four conductors.  Size 10 wire is rated for 30 amps.  If you ask for 10/3 make sure you verify it has four conductors.  It appears that some cables are labeled as 10/3 and only have three (3).  10/4 appears to be the correct cable but I have no idea why its different from 12/3 an 14/3 labeling. 

[bill-jr]

S.O and S.j. cable witch you prob want for this application are counting all wires as current carrying conductors . . So 10-4 is what you want or if using romex it would be 10-3 ground not counted . .
Very easy to make one owns cord . .
I have a small generator and a plug in spot behind garage . .

[¿spoom]

S.O and S.j. cable witch you prob want for this application are counting all wires as current carrying conductors . . So 10-4 is what you want or if using romex it would be 10-3 ground not counted . .
Very easy to make one owns cord . .
I have a small generator and a plug in spot behind garage . .

'zactly. For SO or SJ you'd use a red and a black for the two hot legs of 180° apart 110/120, a white for the neutral and the green for earth ground. I have a 30A 220V single phase running out to the garage  for it's feed, including a 220 welder outlet. I made a 10ft. AWG8 cable with a 30A plug to go from the generator and plug into the welder receptacle to backfeed to the house. To use the generator I open & lockout the house's main breaker, isolating the house from the outside world, period. Then whatever I do inside the house is up to me. I kill all the breakers inside the house and start the generator powering the garage breaker box via the welder outlet. Everything but a single LED bare bulb overhead light in the garage is on at this time, more than enough to see with once your eyes adjust. Once the generator is on I can head back to the house and close the 30 amp garage breaker in the main panel which will power the panel. Whatever other breakers I turn on will feed their house circuits, so I can rotate the fridge until it kicks off, followed by the basement chest freezer, then run the furnace up to 75°~80°, then maybe a few minutes of cable/web router to catch the news and web before repeating the cycle. When I notice power is on in the neighborhood I can shut it down in reverse.
Turn off all breakers in the house, leaving the main off. Go out to the garage and kill it & unplug the generator. Turn the garage breakers back on per normal and then go back to the house. Flip the main breaker back on and one by one, the circuit breakers until the whole house is back on. Turning the main on while the rest of the breakers are still off reduces the big jolt of a turning on the whole house at once with various compressors, blowers and lighting all coming on. 

[..]

My cable.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HS2LBQ

[bill-jr]

Prob half that price if you make it yourself . . .

[The emperor has no clothes]

Aren’t both ends supposed to be male fittings ?

[..]

Prob half that price if you make it yourself . . .

I'm NOT making anything electrical.

[3fan4life]

I was in Rural King yesterday, the lady told me that they had gotten in 360 generators the day before.

She grinned and said that they don't have 360 now.


They were leaving the store like hotcakes:

[Jess from VA]

Aren’t both ends supposed to be male fittings ?

I was wondering about that myself.

Everyone may not have the setup I have.

But the generator doesn't have any prongs sticking out, and neither does the electrical panel (or any feed connected to the panel).

I can't figure how the female end fits into the generator-to-house-power equation.  

But I'm no electrician or even an apprentice.

Other female ends, I figured out long ago.     (no formal training there either)

[bill-jr]

Pic he showed that comes from his “box” was a male. So i think he got the right cord. . .

[The emperor has no clothes]

Pic he showed that comes from his “box” was a male. So i think he got the right cord. . .

Oh. I didn’t see that.